A question of authority

[DHK]

One wonders then why all men are not saved? If man has no part to play, and God is no respecter of persons, and God desires that all men should come to repentance, then why do so many reject the Gospel and remain lost?

If salvation is not all of God then salvation is not salvation at all.
I trust you will respond to preacher4truth's post.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

If salvation is not all of God then salvation is not salvation at all.
I trust you will respond to preacher4truth's post.

Water dude is all by himself on this thread. It seems that this argument is the position that many christian denominations take. It can be seen in Acts that baptism is very important to the christian faith. I don't think this is a works vs. faith salvation. Who gave us baptism to begin with? And if you're saved are you not obedient to God who tells us to be baptised? Works based faith is a presumption upon God that he owes us something due to us having merited it. No Christian believes that. God doesn't owe us anything just because we are baptized. Many baptized people who have this view will be in hell. However, our faith which leads to baptism whether its a required next step to faith in our doctrine or not doesn't make it a meritable action. This is the key distinction that I see. So a CoC who claims Acts Chp 2 showing a requirement of baptism for the completed entry into salvation isn't viewing it as a works based action but an obedient one of faith. Christian groups view it much like Circumsision it shows citizenship. Jesus establishes a kingdom to which its members are marked by faith and baptism. That is how they view it. Its not works. But obedience.
Now the next view they have is that once you are in the kingdom of Christ if you want to remain a citizen (much like being an american citizen) you have responsibilities and rights. If you betray your citizenship without repentance are you truelly a citizen? If you continue a life of sin how can you claim citizenship. To CoC you apostate to a reformed person you never were saved to begin with. However, in either case the result is the same. I don't consider this enough of a theological difference to call the other a heretic. Jesus in both cases saves.

 

[DHK]

Water dude is all by himself on this thread. It seems that this argument is the position that many christian denominations take.

And they would all be worng.

It can be seen in Acts that baptism is very important to the christian faith.

Important but not salvic.

I don't think this is a works vs. faith salvation. Who gave us baptism to begin with? And if you're saved are you not obedient to God who tells us to be baptised? Works based faith is a presumption upon God that he owes us something due to us having merited it. No Christian believes that.

Then you have made the point of both COC and the RCC. Finally you see the light. They both have works based religions, for baptism is a work that they require for their salvation or their faith. It is works based. Baptism is a work.
Christ commanded baptism. He commanded it to believers AFTER they believed, and not before.
If you are baptized before you are saved, (or as a requirement of salvation) then you are being DISOBEDIENT to Christ, not obedient.

God doesn't owe us anything just because we are baptized.

God doesn't owe us anything baptized or not.

Many baptized people who have this view will be in hell. However, our faith which leads to baptism whether its a required next step to faith in our doctrine or not doesn't make it a meritable action. This is the key distinction that I see. So a CoC who claims Acts Chp 2 showing a requirement of baptism for the completed entry into salvation isn't viewing it as a works based action but an obedient one of faith.

You can say that until you are blue in the face but you are wrong. They view it as a requirement for their salvation. Therefore it is a work. Salvation is not of works; it is by grace through faith. We are not saved by works. Both the COC and RCC believe salvation is by works.

Christian groups view it much like Circumsision it shows citizenship. Jesus establishes a kingdom to which its members are marked by faith and baptism.

That is false. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved, but still part of God's Kingdom.

 

[Watermaker]

...It's not just that you care to have pure dialogue, your intent is to convince one, or more, to believe that you are right, and all along they have been wrong...

Well YEAH!!! Isn't that why most everyone is on here? Isn't that the impetus for nearly every discussion thread on this site? One person submits an idea, others either agree or disagree with them, and it goes from there. Don't make me out to be some sort of saboteur, sir. I am as passionate about my understanding of the Bible as you are about yours, yet somehow I am at fault. I have not trespassed into the "Baptist Only" areas. I've stayed here in the area reserved for "Other Christian denominations". Other than Baptist, I take that to mean, correct? Yet my Christian perspective is seemingly most unwelcome. Why is that? There are Seventh Day Adventists, Baptists, and who knows what else here, and nobody seems to have a problem with them. To quote Charlie Brown, "Why is everybody picking on me :tear:?

...And by the way, unity isn't something we generate. That's the fallacy of the world. We guard the unity. It's something we already possess. Check Ephesians 4, especially 4:3, where we are to keep the unity...

Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

You are correct in a sense. The church was to keep the unity of the Spirit. The seven "ones" in the following verses were the basis of that unity, yet, judging from the vast sea of religious bodies in the world all claiming Christianity, I'd have to say that unity has been lost somewhere along the way. Perhaps a thread on the seven "ones" of Ephesians 4 might be good for discussion. I'll get right on it.

Now you desire to move onto foundations, in other words history of the teachings of Campbell.

You may fancy yourself a prophet, sir, but I had/have no intention of delving into the teachings of Alexander Campbell.

Once again, if you don't want to participate, you don't have to.

...Look, if it were all about making certain you were baptized and left at that, there would be no point whatsoever. But that is not what is at stake here, to him, it's who administered it, and under what authority, and name on the building, and belief about this and that, and on and on and on.

It's like he's reading my MIND!!!! Please.

I for one am far less interested in who administers baptism than I am in what the subject of baptism believes about it. Of course, the authority for baptism is Jesus Christ (or the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit - it's the same either way, since they have UNITY). Can one believe error and obey truth? Are we not to give diligence to make our calling and election sure (2 Pet 1:10)? I would be suspect of anyone who told me not to question my salvation when the Bible teaches that I need to examine myself to make sure I'm in the faith (2 Cor 13:5). Imagine thinking one is about to "slide into home plate", only to learn at the end that they never tagged first base. You're OUT!!!

...Because unless it [baptism - WM] is administered to one who believes as watermaker here does, then it is invalid and unscriptural...

I would say that unless a subject for baptism understands the Biblical need for baptism, then I don't know how it could mean anything to them.

I am being polite to others (with perhaps a dash of sarcasm here and there) because I believe that is how we ought to treat each other. You know, the Golden Rule and such. Sure, I could go off on blistering tirades decrying the error of this doctrine or that, or going on and on about what someone else believes based on what church they are a member of, but I find that those who do so just end up looking like jerks and no one wants to talk to them.

...So when one goes off on others here, and says we need to accept them (coC) and their beliefs, be full aware they do not accept yours...

You know, I'm really not asking anyone to accept my beliefs. I am asking that folks might be willing to calmly and rationally discuss each others beliefs without the assumption that each already knows what the other believes and compare our beliefs to what we can all find in the Bible to make sure our beliefs are as good as we think they are.

...they do not accept Baptist baptisms, which means friends, they do not accept YOUR personal baptism as valid, or your doctrine, and if you don't agree with them, well, I'll let your imagination figure that one out.

See, this is exactly what I'm talking about. preacher4truth already knows all my arguments and lines of reasoning. I'm not here to condemn anyone. That's not my place. I'm here to discuss the Bible. Anyone is welcome to join me. If anyone doesn't want to, they don't have to. No hard feelings.

For further knowledge of where these teachings have culminated, look for , google, Campbellism, Campbellites &c.

Again, I'm not too concerned about the teachings of Alexander Campbell. Hats off to him for the truth he taught, as to anyone. Not a single thing that I believe or teach originated with Alexander Campbell, and I've never heard of the tombstone you were talking about. You may know more about Campbellism than I do.

There is much more but that is enough. You have to know what they truly believe about you, and your salvation experience, and the fact they reject your church, your baptism, all of it. That's the bottom line about them.


- In Him

:jesus:

This part was preceded by a list of everything any Baptist needs to know about the church of Christ or something like that. That, however, is not the bottom line, end of discussion, cat's pajamas, or anything else. The bottom line is that I'm as concerned about the souls of others here as they are about mine. I think we should all be members of the same church that Paul was a part of. What other options are there?

Again, if you don't want to take part, don't.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

.
They view it as a requirement for their salvation. Therefore it is a work. Salvation is not of works; it is by grace through faith. We are not saved by works.

That is a poor definition of work. Baptism is not a work. Its an act of obedience. Its like saying faith is a work because its a requirement of salvation. Being baptized doesn't obligate God to save us. Neither CoC or RCC hold this view. If this was their view you could then say its work based. Yet this is not their belief. They believe Baptism is a necessary act of faith. There is a big difference and a distinction you need to understand.

 

[DHK]

Now the next view they have is that once you are in the kingdom of Christ if you want to remain a citizen (much like being an american citizen) you have responsibilities and rights. If you betray your citizenship without repentance are you truelly a citizen? If you continue a life of sin how can you claim citizenship. To CoC you apostate to a reformed person you never were saved to begin with. However, in either case the result is the same. I don't consider this enough of a theological difference to call the other a heretic. Jesus in both cases saves.

Jesus alone saves. Baptism does not. That is the essence of this debate. The one position is Biblical and the other is heretical, if not superstitious.

But though thou dost wash with nitre, And dost multiply to thyself soap, Marked is thine iniquity before Me, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah. (Jeremiah 2:22)

Jeremiah mocked those who believed that water could wash away sins. It can't, and neither can baptism.

Let me ask you the same question that I ask those of the COC. When I came to Christ, trusted Him as my Savior, I had full assurance of my salvation. I knew that God had saved me, given me eternal life and forgiveness of sins. Yet, I was not baptized until two years later. Now if I had died between the time that I considered myself saved, and the time that I was baptized, would I have gone to heaven?
You answer, and see if your answer will differ from any other COC member? I already know what they have told me.

 

[DHK]

That is a poor definition of work. Baptism is not a work. Its an act of obedience. Its like saying faith is a work because its a requirement of salvation. Being baptized doesn't obligate God to save us. Neither CoC or RCC hold this view. If this was their view you could then say its work based. Yet this is not their belief. They believe Baptism is a necessary act of faith. There is a big difference and a distinction you need to understand.

This is my view and that is why it is works based. You ought to see this. It is so simple and clear.

Prayer is a work.
Studying the Bible is a work.
Going to church is a work; it takes effort.
Witnessing to others is a work.
Cleaning the church building is a work.
Shoveling the snow is a work--do it as unto the Lord.
Singing is a work--a worshipful one.
Praising God is a work.
Baptizing a person is a work.
The act of baptizing is a work.
Submitting to baptism is a work.
These are all works.
None of the above works does God do for you; you do the effort. You put forth the needed calories and use them up as you expend the energy necessary to accomplish the work required. They are all works. It is something that you do; an act.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

This is my view and that is why it is works based. You ought to see this. It is so simple and clear.

Prayer is a work.
Studying the Bible is a work.
Going to church is a work; it takes effort.
Witnessing to others is a work.
Cleaning the church building is a work.
Shoveling the snow is a work--do it as unto the Lord.
Singing is a work--a worshipful one.
Praising God is a work.
Baptizing a person is a work.
The act of baptizing is a work.
Submitting to baptism is a work.
These are all works.
None of the above works does God do for you; you do the effort. You put forth the needed calories and use them up as you expend the energy necessary to accomplish the work required. They are all works. It is something that you do; an act.

No I don't see it in your perspective. A work as in the perspective of the bible is an attempt to gain a merit towards salvation. Thus not one of those thing that you mention can merit or earn salvation. However, once you've entered the door to the kingdom those things worked towards our sanctification which is one of the reason God saves us. I think salvation only means attaining heaven to your perspective. When God saves us from sin, for good deeds/sanctification (saved unto good works), from wrong thinking to right thinking, to include obtaining heaven. In otherwords everything about us is redeemed. To include those things that we do.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Monkey Wrench time!

While Water Baptism is *NOT* a requirement to be saved...

Could disobedience, ie., outright refussal to be Baptised be an issue that could lead a person away from the Faith?

My thoughts are that if a person is truly saved and truly has the Comforter Within...

Then they will want to follow Christ in Baptism.

I have heard that some of the cults will tolerate a "Confession" of Christ.

But, once the person is actually Baptised they treat them as dead people.

Because, at *that* point they have portrayed a washing away of the old life and a resurrection to a new life.

 

[billwald]

All will not be saved because all don't want to be saved. We have free will. Someone explain exactly why Hell would be less painful to Hitler or Stalin than Heaven.

 

[DHK]

No I don't see it in your perspective. A work as in the perspective of the bible is an attempt to gain a merit towards salvation. Thus not one of those thing that you mention can merit or earn salvation. However, once you've entered the door to the kingdom those things worked towards our sanctification which is one of the reason God saves us. I think salvation only means attaining heaven to your perspective. When God saves us from sin, for good deeds/sanctification (saved unto good works), from wrong thinking to right thinking, to include obtaining heaven. In otherwords everything about us is redeemed. To include those things that we do.

A work is a work is a work!
God looks at baptism as a work.
If this work (baptism) is required for salvation then salvation is of works, and that is heresy. It is that simple.

 

[DHK]

My thoughts are that if a person is truly saved and truly has the Comforter Within...

Then they will want to follow Christ in Baptism.

Yes, however, why stop at baptism. It is simply the first step in the Christian life. They will also desire to pray, read the Word of God, fellowship with other believers, witness of their faith to others, etc. Baptism is only one work of many others; one command or act of obedience among so many others that Christ gave us. Why stop at baptism? The Christian life doesn't stop there.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

A work is a work is a work!
God looks at baptism as a work.
If this work (baptism) is required for salvation then salvation is of works, and that is heresy. It is that simple.

He can't have or he wouldn't have commanded it. Baptism irrelevant of faith cannot save. You cannot be baptized and obligate God to save you. However, it is an activity of faith and we are commanded to do it. We aren't given an option not to do it. What does Jesus say in Matthew 25? What does Peter say in Acts 2? Just like when we have faith we are commanded not to live in the way of our past deeds. There is a distinction here!

 

[Watermaker]

Jesus alone saves. Baptism does not. That is the essence of this debate. The one position is Biblical and the other is heretical, if not superstitious.

DHK, no one has accused you of being heretical or superstitious! Don't be so hard on yourself!

But though thou dost wash with nitre, And dost multiply to thyself soap, Marked is thine iniquity before Me, An affirmation of the Lord Jehovah. (Jeremiah 2:22)

Jeremiah mocked those who believed that water could wash away sins. It can't, and neither can baptism.

Apples to oranges, sir. Baptism for the remission of sins was not commanded under the Old Testament. In turning to this passage spoken to backslidden and rebellious Israel in an attempt to skirt the New Testament command to be baptized for the remission of sins, you betray a disturbing lack of understanding of the topic of the opening post, namely, "Where should we under the New Testament of Jesus Christ turn for authority in matters of faith and practice in the New Testament church?"

And nobody is claiming that water washes away sins. Water baptism is simply what God has commanded to those who believe the gospel of Christ and who seek a pure conscience before God.

Let me ask you the same question that I ask those of the COC. When I came to Christ, trusted Him as my Savior, I had full assurance of my salvation. I knew that God had saved me, given me eternal life and forgiveness of sins.

How did you know? In what way did you trust in Jesus if you refused to obey His commands? From whence came your "full assurance" of salvation? The preacher? A warm, fuzzy feeling deep down in your heart? For one to be able to approach the throne of grace in full assurance of faith requires that one's faith be founded upon the word of God (Rom 10:17; Heb 10:22).

This is exactly the issue at hand, sir. Who told you that you were saved? Did you rely on the preacher, or that you had followed the pattern of conversion shown again and again in the book of Acts (hearing, belief, repentance, confession, baptism)? On what was your faith based?

 

[DHK]

This is exactly the issue at hand, sir. Who told you that you were saved? Did you rely on the preacher, or that you had followed the pattern of conversion shown again and again in the book of Acts (hearing, belief, repentance, confession, baptism)? On what was your faith based?

As I testified: I trusted Christ, had full assurance of my salvation that God had granted me eternal life and forgiveness of sins. However, I was not baptized until two years later. According to my testimony you question my salvation. Thinkinstuff take note! This is exactly what I told you would happen. Why? Because those of the COC believe baptism must be a part of salvation. This man does not consider me saved.

1. Who told me that I was saved?
First of all it was God.
The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: (Romans 8:16)
--God's Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am His child.
Does He do the same with you? Does God's Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? How do you know? Warm fuzzy feelings??
Second of all it was the Word of God.
He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. (1 John 5:13)
--At the time that I believed I knew I had eternal life for I relied on the promises of God, not the promises of man, nor the promises of the COC or the RCC or any other heretical organization. I had just come out of one of those. I knew I had been saved according to the promises of God, and the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit, One that bore witness with my spirit. At that time I became born into his family; I became his child.
Third of all, there was a great change in my life.
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Corinthians 5:17)
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)
--My life changed. Only God could do that. Water had nothing to do with it; not even the water that some call baptism--totally irrelevant. I was baptized two years later. I never doubted my salvation and yet you have the audacity to say I wasn't saved. You, are a very arrogant person!!

BTW, it wasn't a preacher that led me to the Lord. It wasn't in a church. Preachers and churches had nothing to do with my salvation. So much you presume and so little you know.

or that you had followed the pattern of conversion shown again and again in the book of Acts (hearing, belief, repentance, confession, baptism)?

This is not a pattern of conversion followed in the book of Acts--not even once. You are deceived, or badly instructed. Nowhere is this "pattern" seen in the Bible, not even once.

On what was my faith based? The object of my faith is Jesus Christ. I put my faith in Him and his sacrificial atonement for my sins. It was based on the knowledge that the Bible gave me about that message.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
I heard the Word of God as it was explained to me, and then I trusted the Lord as my Savior.
Little atoms of H2O had nothing to do with my salvation as you superstitiously believe that they do with yours.

 

[DHK]

He can't have or he wouldn't have commanded it. Baptism irrelevant of faith cannot save. You cannot be baptized and obligate God to save you. However, it is an activity of faith and we are commanded to do it. We aren't given an option not to do it. What does Jesus say in Matthew 25? What does Peter say in Acts 2? Just like when we have faith we are commanded not to live in the way of our past deeds. There is a distinction here!

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--That is a command, and it is how one is to be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
--That is a command, and it is how one is to be saved.

Following salvation is baptism, prayer, witnessing, fellowship, being taught in doctrine, etc. These are all commands which cannot be avoided. Why do you emphasize baptism more than the others? It is almost as if you are prejudicial to baptism over prayer, and yet Jesus has much more to say about prayer than he does about baptism. Baptism is a work, like prayer is a work. There is no difference. Both will only be accepted by God after salvation.

Every command of God we do by faith--by faith that whatever God tells is beneficial for our spiritual well being. However baptism, like prayer or witnessing doesn't save. It is a work or act of obedience done after salvation and not before.

God promises to save those who call upon his name; those who believe in him. He never promises to save those who are baptized. What on earth do you mean by "obligating God"? God is not obligated to us in any way.

If you are totally obedient to God you are not given the option not to be a missionary. The Bible commands you to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. That command is just as important as the command to baptize, and in Mat.28:19,20 is included in the same command. Are you obedient to the commands of Jesus. Which country will you be going to as a missionary?

The commands of Christ are not simply just to believe on him but also to suffer for his sake:
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Philippians 1:29)
--When you get to your mission field tell me how much you suffer for Christ.
Are you going to obey the Lord in all things. Baptism is only the first step of obedience in the Christian life. It is not a requirement for salvation.

 

[preacher4truth]

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.
--That is a command, and it is how one is to be saved.

For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
--That is a command, and it is how one is to be saved.

Following salvation is baptism, prayer, witnessing, fellowship, being taught in doctrine, etc. These are all commands which cannot be avoided. Why do you emphasize baptism more than the others? It is almost as if you are prejudicial to baptism over prayer, and yet Jesus has much more to say about prayer than he does about baptism. Baptism is a work, like prayer is a work. There is no difference. Both will only be accepted by God after salvation.

Every command of God we do by faith--by faith that whatever God tells is beneficial for our spiritual well being. However baptism, like prayer or witnessing doesn't save. It is a work or act of obedience done after salvation and not before.

God promises to save those who call upon his name; those who believe in him. He never promises to save those who are baptized. What on earth do you mean by "obligating God"? God is not obligated to us in any way.

If you are totally obedient to God you are not given the option not to be a missionary. The Bible commands you to go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. That command is just as important as the command to baptize, and in Mat.28:19,20 is included in the same command. Are you obedient to the commands of Jesus. Which country will you be going to as a missionary?

The commands of Christ are not simply just to believe on him but also to suffer for his sake:
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; (Philippians 1:29)
--When you get to your mission field tell me how much you suffer for Christ.
Are you going to obey the Lord in all things. Baptism is only the first step of obedience in the Christian life. It is not a requirement for salvation.

Well said DHK. This baptism thing was laid out well, it's the coC "sugarstick" as they used to say.

For a coC to come on and deny the things I laid out is kind of funny and kind of sad at the same time. All of what was said is factual. So to deny it, well, we can go with our own thoughts their.

Like I've said, if this were about worrying if we are baptized, it's a moot point. We're baptized. Does not Hebrews talk of this as being elementary doctrines, and we are to mature from this and go on?

Absolutely.

The desire for unity from this guy is blurred by his mission to preach his baptism and it's being, to him, efficacious. If he is looking to create unity, well, that's debatable. We already have it. That's why we fight so much.

No one can bring unity here. Dialogue? Yes. Unity? Nope.

This is not about a desire for unity. It's a desire to straighten us all out, no matter how he dresses it. I see it on other blogs. Same thing, different www.
This issue doesn't stop at baptism, the church sign. It moves on to music, then dress, then make-up, then this then that and on and on and on.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

I agree it is sad to bring children and new believers up in a way that if they have an accident before Baptism can be scheduled they'll lose their Salvation and go to a hell prepared for the devil and his angels.

To believe such is to completely negate the Love of God and His Scarifice of God's Perfect Lamb on Calvary. Not to mention all of Paul's writings on the Grace of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

I agree it is sad to bring children and new believers up in a way that if they have an accident before Baptism can be scheduled they'll lose their Salvation and go to a hell prepared for the devil and his angels.

To believe such is to completely negate the Love of God and His Scarifice of God's Perfect Lamb on Calvary. Not to mention all of Paul's writings on the Grace of God.

That is a very good point you make.

It puts it in perspective. I am certain this has happened, someone dying in the Lord, before they could be baptized. Perhaps the thief on the Cross being the first one.

One funny thing, I had a couple come to our church. Staunch yet back-slidden coC. He argued with me out door knocking concerning the sign on our Church saying Baptist, and went into a debate about "churches of Christ" being the true church. I asked him what about where it says "of God?" He says I am confusing him. Anyhow, I told him, well, "John was a Baptist" and he says, "yeah, and they cut off his head!!!" I had to laugh, but he was dead serious that that meant something for us today, as far as Baptists being wrong! Nevertheless they began to attend services. They turned out to be fine faithful people.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

I agree it is sad to bring children and new believers up in a way that if they have an accident before Baptism can be scheduled they'll lose their Salvation and go to a hell prepared for the devil and his angels.

To believe such is to completely negate the Love of God and His Scarifice of God's Perfect Lamb on Calvary. Not to mention all of Paul's writings on the Grace of God.

I don't see how its any less worse than to subjigate children to damnation and hell if they aren't chosen from before time. To me its the same thing.