Degree- worth the paper?

[Luke2427]

. . . no better than what the Holy Spirit can do through individuals chosen to lead and tend the flock.

While I have no problem with those who have gone the way of academia to gain a better understanding of the Bible and theology, it is my opinion that throughout the history of mankind, God didn't select His leaders and prophets according to the number of degrees listed after their name.

Furthermore, academia has often misled the faithful with liberal, watered down interpretations of the Bible and the mission of the church.

We can lay the blame for the many different denominations, that separate the church, on doorsteps of theologians.

Lay leadership is often as effective as the educated leader, and when God does the selecting of those He wishes to lead a flock, who's to argue?

Both the laymen and the scholarly led pastor must find theChristian love and ability to accept one another's calling when it is clear that the Lord has ordained it.

I've seen miracluous works come out of the sweat and prayers of both the educated leader and the lowly layperson! I've also observed the fall of both when overwhelmed with demonic temptations.

When the degrees are set aside, the man called of God, and those who remain true to their calling and the God of their salvation will continue to reap great harvests for the Kingdom!!! :thumbs:

Shalom,

Pastor Paul :type:

I don't disagree with much of this. I think some of these are perfectly valid points.

But I want to know- Do you see any benefit in going to school, then?

Since God is not looking for people with degrees to lead the flock- is there any point?

BTW, I don't think he is looking JUST for people with degrees to lead.

But is there any benefit in your mind to getting a seminary degree?

 

[Havensdad]

But you also included this:



No it is not arrogance for the laity (and here you did not use "average laity" but clumsily lumped them all together) to dedicate themselves to the study of the Scriptures apart from the universities and believe that they can also "dig out" as much as the seminary trained theologian. If they put in the effort it can certainly be done. Sitting in a seminary doesn't make anyone a biblical scholar anymore than my sitting in my truck makes me a mechanic. The amount of effort and study put into it makes the difference regardless of the form or location.

It absolutely is arrogance, and it completely dismisses the Holy Spirit granted gift of teaching. God through His word says it is "Teachers" who prepare the Saints for the work of the Ministry, not "Self study." (Ephesians 4:12). Again and again, the scriptures assert the importance of the teacher; this means, without equivocation, that having a teacher, gifted by the Holy Spirit, is superior to "self study."

And let's consider that "self study," for a moment, shall we? Is it completely self study? Because, for instance, if you are using Greek grammars to learn Greek, you are actually relying on the writings of a teacher, and here is the important part, that was trained, and able to train others because of the blood and sweat of seminary students working hard to pay for their education, which in turn payed their salaries. They are in essence "getting a free ride" off of the effort of others. If Bill Mounce wasn't able to be provided for through teaching Seminary classes, he never would have been able to produce his groundbreaking intro Greek classes. Nor would many, many others.

The fact is, God's Word expressly commands that teachers are worthy of their pay. The years and years that they have spent, perfecting this information, so that they can pass it on to the next generation, deserves recompense.

There is doubtless times when a Seminary education is not possible; my own pastor, due to the lateness of his call, did not attend Seminary. And he will admit that he, and those others like him, are at a severe disadvantage. God has given gifted teachers for a reason; he has never promised to "poof" knowledge into our heads apart from them...

So, to those who choose to not attend Seminary, but go into the pastorate, I would ask, "Why?" Do you dispute the value of Biblical training? Then you have no business in the pastorate. Do you not wish to put in the hard work? Then you do not belong in the pastorate. Do you not have the finances? I would tell you that if you place TV's, fishing boats, and other garbage ahead of your Biblical training, then you have no place in the pastorate. The pastorate is for those who are willing to abandon all for Christ, not for those half-hearted Christians who would rather eat out all the time, and drive fancy cars, than better understand the book of Romans, or Biblical Hermeneutics, and so on. For those who really do not have the money, my question is, "could you not work, and EARN the money through hard work?"

I am truly saddened by the complete belittling of the gift of teaching shown on this and other threads. I guess God just gave the gift of teaching as a lark..."Ha, ha guys, we don't really need you!"

 

[Luke2427]

It absolutely is arrogance, and it completely dismisses the Holy Spirit granted gift of teaching. God through His word says it is "Teachers" who prepare the Saints for the work of the Ministry, not "Self study." (Ephesians 4:12). Again and again, the scriptures assert the importance of the teacher; this means, without equivocation, that having a teacher, gifted by the Holy Spirit, is superior to "self study."

And let's consider that "self study," for a moment, shall we? Is it completely self study? Because, for instance, if you are using Greek grammars to learn Greek, you are actually relying on the writings of a teacher, and here is the important part, that was trained, and able to train others because of the blood and sweat of seminary students working hard to pay for their education, which in turn payed their salaries. They are in essence "getting a free ride" off of the effort of others. If Bill Mounce wasn't able to be provided for through teaching Seminary classes, he never would have been able to produce his groundbreaking intro Greek classes. Nor would many, many others.

The fact is, God's Word expressly commands that teachers are worthy of their pay. The years and years that they have spent, perfecting this information, so that they can pass it on to the next generation, deserves recompense.

There is doubtless times when a Seminary education is not possible; my own pastor, due to the lateness of his call, did not attend Seminary. And he will admit that he, and those others like him, are at a severe disadvantage. God has given gifted teachers for a reason; he has never promised to "poof" knowledge into our heads apart from them...

So, to those who choose to not attend Seminary, but go into the pastorate, I would ask, "Why?" Do you dispute the value of Biblical training? Then you have no business in the pastorate. Do you not wish to put in the hard work? Then you do not belong in the pastorate. Do you not have the finances? I would tell you that if you place TV's, fishing boats, and other garbage ahead of your Biblical training, then you have no place in the pastorate. The pastorate is for those who are willing to abandon all for Christ, not for those half-hearted Christians who would rather eat out all the time, and drive fancy cars, than better understand the book of Romans, or Biblical Hermeneutics, and so on. For those who really do not have the money, my question is, "could you not work, and EARN the money through hard work?"

I am truly saddened by the complete belittling of the gift of teaching shown on this and other threads. I guess God just gave the gift of teaching as a lark..."Ha, ha guys, we don't really need you!"

good post. Very solid points.

 

[righteousdude2]

To Be Honest . . .

I don't disagree with much of this. I think some of these are perfectly valid points.

But I want to know- Do you see any benefit in going to school, then?

Since God is not looking for people with degrees to lead the flock- is there any point?

BTW, I don't think he is looking JUST for people with degrees to lead.

But is there any benefit in your mind to getting a seminary degree?

I think the need to graduate from a seminary is between the person and God.

I have a BA, and have completed 18 units toward my Masters, but, after much prayer. I decided that I had gone far enough, and went into the ministry.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting as much education as you think you need, but I believe there comes a point where the person can become "over educated" and when we get there it is often more difficult to hear and distinguish the voice of God from the voices of those who mentored and taught us.

This is merely my opinion, but academia can actually strangle the roots of ones calling, so we must be prayerfully careful!

Pastor Paul :type:

 

[Luke2427]

I think the need to graduate from a seminary is between the person and God.

I have a BA, and have completed 18 units toward my Masters, but, after much prayer. I decided that I had gone far enough, and went into the ministry.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with getting as much education as you think you need, but I believe there comes a point where the person can become "over educated" and when we get there it is often more difficult to hear and distinguish the voice of God from the voices of those who mentored and taught us.

This is merely my opinion, but academia can actually strangle the roots of ones calling, so we must be prayerfully careful!

Pastor Paul :type:

All of this is fine and there's something to it- but do you deny that tools are given in seminary that the average layman does not have? Greek, etc...

 

[matt wade]

All of this is fine and there's something to it- but do you deny that tools are given in seminary that the average layman does not have? Greek, etc...

Remind me why someone has to go to seminary to learn Greek?

 

[Havensdad]

Remind me why someone has to go to seminary to learn Greek?

Unless someone is a genius, advanced Greek studies typically require an instructor. Admittedly, someone can muddle their way through Intro and Intermediate Greek studies, but without the organized format, and Godly, spirit filled teacher, it would take much, much longer.

However, as already noted, this is only possible because someone ELSE went to Seminary, and wrote materials that enable a person to do this. Neglecting the much superior Seminary studies, and resorting to such sources exclusively, will assure that their are not such modern resources in the NEXT generation...the teacher is worthy of his hire.

 

[Luke2427]

Remind me why someone has to go to seminary to learn Greek?

I haven't said that so I suppose it would be hard to remind you of it.

I have said numerous times that there are some exceptional laymen who learn great things apart from seminary.

I have said that repeatedly. In fact I have said that I said that repeatedly- repeatedly.

It doesn't seem to matter.

I suppose folks are going to keep popping in here reading a single post and then arguing straw men.

The point of this thread, for the tenth time- no, actually probably more than than that- is that graduating from seminary TENDS to make one significantly more knowledgeable of the Bible than laymen.

This is all I have said and it is what I have said consistently throughout this thread without contradiction.

How ANYBODY could argue against that is BEYOND ME.

For the eleventh time- THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS but the general rule is that a good seminary grants one a great deal more bible knowledge than the average layman.

Got it, yet??

 

[Havensdad]

Got it, yet??

I am sure they haven't. But we will see. Either way they will have to stop soon; they have beaten all of the straw out of the strawman...

 

[Luke2427]

I am sure they haven't. But we will see. Either way they will have to stop soon; they have beaten all of the straw out of the strawman...

Yea, but I believe they peddle in straw. They seem to have a limitless supply.

 

[matt wade]

Don't worry...I'm done. The arrogance is suffocating me in here.

 

[Havensdad]

Don't worry...I'm done. The arrogance is suffocating me in here.

Yep. Nothing more arrogant than saying education has value. Actually, the arrogant ones are those claiming they can learn as much by themselves, as with a Holy Spirit filled teacher. But hey, this is the place for twisting facts, right?

 

[Don]

Remind me why someone has to go to seminary to learn Greek?

I learned Italian from living with Italians for six months...learned Dari from working with Afghans for a year...never got the hang of Arabic...that Iraqi kid who allegedly taught me to say "3 eggs scrambled with cheese," I don't know what he actually taught me, but the kid cooking the food laughed at me big time....

 

[Luke2427]

Yep. Nothing more arrogant than saying education has value.

:laugh:That is absolutely hilarious!:laugh: I wish I had thought of it!

And it is extraordinarily true! (the sarcastic message in it, that is)

Actually, the arrogant ones are those claiming they can learn as much by themselves, as with a Holy Spirit filled teacher. But hey, this is the place for twisting facts, right?

This is just true.

 

[GBC Pastor]

While we are on the subject of twisting facts show me the first person who has said this:

Originally Posted by Havensdad
Yep. Nothing more arrogant than saying education has value.

No one has said it is arrogant to say that education has value. What many including myself have argued is that it is arrogant to assert that only through the seminary can one achieve theological training.

 

[Luke2427]

No one has said it is arrogant to say that education has value. What many including myself have argued is that it is arrogant to assert that only through the seminary can one achieve theological training.

Then you have been arguing the wind- actually another strawman, because no one ever said the ONLY way to theological training is in a seminary.

Who said that?

What we have said, literally more than a dozen times at this point is that some exceptional laymen indeed DO get such training that their knowledge is comparable and can at times even exceed the seminary graduate.

We have used Spurgeon as an example of such several different times.

But these laymen are few and far between- they are the exception- not the rule.

What we have said consistently and from the start and without contradiction is that a seminary education TENDS to make one far more knowledgeable in the Bible than the average layman.

Why and how you can continue to argue against that is beyond me.

 

[Luke2427]

I haven't said that so I suppose it would be hard to remind you of it.

I have said numerous times that there are some exceptional laymen who learn great things apart from seminary.

I have said that repeatedly. In fact I have said that I said that repeatedly- repeatedly.

It doesn't seem to matter.

I suppose folks are going to keep popping in here reading a single post and then arguing straw men.

The point of this thread, for the tenth time- no, actually probably more than than that- is that graduating from seminary TENDS to make one significantly more knowledgeable of the Bible than laymen.

This is all I have said and it is what I have said consistently throughout this thread without contradiction.

How ANYBODY could argue against that is BEYOND ME.

For the eleventh time- THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS but the general rule is that a good seminary grants one a great deal more bible knowledge than the average layman.

Got it, yet??

Thought I'd repost this.

Every time somebody says something like, "You are saying that a layman is dumb!" or "You are saying that no layman can ever be as smart as a seminarian!" or "You are arrogant because you believe that all seminarians are smarter than any layman!" or "You are saying that a layman can't understand the Bible!" etc, etc, etc...- I am going to repost this.

 

[GBC Pastor]

Funny I thought you further went on to say this:

Is it not also arrogance for laity to assume that they can go to the Bible and dig out as much or more than those who have dedicated a decade of their lives in universities specializing in the study of the Scriptures?

I know I read that somewhere...where was that?...oh yeah... it was in your OP.

 

[Havensdad]

While we are on the subject of twisting facts show me the first person who has said this:



No one has said it is arrogant to say that education has value. What many including myself have argued is that it is arrogant to assert that only through the seminary can one achieve theological training.

Either it is superior, and therefore valuable, or it is unnecessary and therefore expensive and unwarranted. If the same education can be obtained without educated, Godly teachers, then seminary is a worthless and needless expense.

 

[Havensdad]

Funny I thought you further went on to say this:



I know I read that somewhere...where was that?...oh yeah... it was in your OP.

Nothing wrong with what he said. It IS arrogant for a person who has not received training from Holy Spirit led teachers, to think they can do just as well all by themselves. That is, in fact, the epitome of arrogance...it is saying "I don't need God's teachers, I am smarter than they, and can do it myself."

Arrogance.