[B said:
GE:
Let's --- to start a new discussion - take the above from, here:
"Quote:
GE said -
You must have said this 1000 times. I have not once seen you actually quote one word from “Lev 16” that “goes beyond "Atoning Sacrifice"."
-
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Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
GE:
Let's --- to start a new discussion - take the above from, here:
"Quote:
GE said -
You must have said this 1000 times. I have not once seen you actually quote one word from “Lev 16” that “goes beyond "Atoning Sacrifice"."
GE:
Bob Ryan quoted Leviticus 16, maintaining...
"And now the part of the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 that goes beyond the slaying of the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:1 NIV) and gets to the part of the High Priest's ministry. Christ our High Priest - takes up His ministry in that regard when He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5.
Quote:
High Priest’s Ministry
15 ""Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering..."
GE:
Sorry to interrupt, but please note, Says Bob Ryan, "If you are also including the Lev 16 concept of atonement then you would need BOTH the "atoning sacrifce" and the "High priestly ministry" of Lev 16 to be completed before the full meaning of the term is completed." Please note Bob Ryan's BIASED PRESUMPTION: "High Priest’s Ministry", AS IF Jesus had not been High Priest BEFORE 'he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering' but only BECAME High Priest AFTER, with all the implications!
BR:
“Christ our High Priest – TAKES UP His ministry IN THAT [HIGH Priestly] REGARD WHEN He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5.” [Emphasis and insertion GE]
Let's first get the first things done before we move on...
Bob Ryan quoted Leviticus 16, maintaining...
"And now the part of the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 that goes beyond the slaying of the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:1 NIV) and gets to the part of the High Priest's ministry. Christ our High Priest - takes up His ministry in that regard when He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5.
Quote:
High Priest’s Ministry
15 ""Then he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering..."
GE:
Sorry to interrupt, but please note, Says Bob Ryan, "If you are also including the Lev 16 concept of atonement then you would need BOTH the "atoning sacrifce" and the "High priestly ministry" of Lev 16 to be completed before the full meaning of the term is completed." Please note Bob Ryan's BIASED PRESUMPTION: "High Priest’s Ministry", AS IF Jesus had not been High Priest BEFORE 'he shall slaughter the goat of the sin offering' but only BECAME High Priest AFTER, with all the implications!
BR:
“Christ our High Priest – TAKES UP His ministry IN THAT [HIGH Priestly] REGARD WHEN He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5.” [Emphasis and insertion GE]
Let's first get the first things done before we move on...
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Remember that in this discussion we have to do with the HEART AND LIFE of Seventh-day Adventism. As their Mrs E.G. White defined it: One of "THE PILLARS" of SDA-ism.
Even THIS, "BR: “Christ our High Priest – TAKES UP His ministry IN THAT [HIGH Priestly] REGARD WHEN He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5” is not the full truth from SDA-viewpoint.
Mrs E.G. White said Jesus first had to go through the ranks of the angels who received him in heaven, and they wanted to worship him, but he said, No; wait until the Father approved my sacrifice. and then only after the Father approved it, was Jesus accepted by everyone with worship and praises.
Is it true, Bob Ryan?
Must I quote Mrs White verbatim for you?
Pray describe you to us further how Jesus then actually got 'appointed', 'Priest', and entered into the 'first apartment' of the 'heavenly sanctuary' IN ORDER TO BEGIN his 'priestly office' to 'offer his blood' on the 'altar' there.
Please do not at this stage bother to explain when and how jesus was promoted to high priest. I'm afraid we are all not prepared to receive that enlightenment yet. So that we may also return to the actual topic of this discussion... just briefly please...
Mrs E.G. White said Jesus first had to go through the ranks of the angels who received him in heaven, and they wanted to worship him, but he said, No; wait until the Father approved my sacrifice. and then only after the Father approved it, was Jesus accepted by everyone with worship and praises.
Is it true, Bob Ryan?
Must I quote Mrs White verbatim for you?
Pray describe you to us further how Jesus then actually got 'appointed', 'Priest', and entered into the 'first apartment' of the 'heavenly sanctuary' IN ORDER TO BEGIN his 'priestly office' to 'offer his blood' on the 'altar' there.
Please do not at this stage bother to explain when and how jesus was promoted to high priest. I'm afraid we are all not prepared to receive that enlightenment yet. So that we may also return to the actual topic of this discussion... just briefly please...
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In 1John 2:2 NIV John says "He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins and not for our sins only but for the sins of the whole world".
Let us look at the "Atoning sacrifice" made on the "Day of Atonement" as God describes it in Lev 16's Day of Atonement chapter.
Christ is the Lamb of God - slain from the foundations of the world. .The atoning sacrifice made in reality on the cross - was full and complete at the moment of His death.
And now the part of the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 that goes beyond the slaying of the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:1 NIV) and gets to the part of the High Priest's ministry. Christ our High Priest - takes up His ministry in that regard when He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5.
This is the work of the High Priest that follows the "Atoning Sacrifice".
In Heb 4 we find that Paul confirms - decades after the cross -- that Christ is our High Priest in heaven.
In Heb 5 again we find that decades after the cross -- that Christ is our High Priest in heaven actively engaged in ministry for us - AND that this work had to first have the Atoning Sacrifice "completed" as Paul says "obedience from the things which He suffered. Having been made perfect He BECAME to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation being designated by God as a High Priest".
In Heb 7 Christ's "completed" once for all atoning sacrifice is noted along side his ongoing High Priestly ministry.
In His role as our High Priest he is the “one Mediator between God and man” that “lives to make intercession for “ us.
1Tim 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Thus the wrath of God unmixed with mercy – is NOT falling upon mankind!
Next we look at the start of that ministry.
in Christ,
Bob
Let us look at the "Atoning sacrifice" made on the "Day of Atonement" as God describes it in Lev 16's Day of Atonement chapter.
Christ is the Lamb of God - slain from the foundations of the world. .The atoning sacrifice made in reality on the cross - was full and complete at the moment of His death.
And now the part of the Day of Atonement in Lev 16 that goes beyond the slaying of the sin offering (the Atoning Sacrifice of 1John 2:1 NIV) and gets to the part of the High Priest's ministry. Christ our High Priest - takes up His ministry in that regard when He goes to heaven Heb 8:1-5.
This is the work of the High Priest that follows the "Atoning Sacrifice".
In Heb 4 we find that Paul confirms - decades after the cross -- that Christ is our High Priest in heaven.
In Heb 5 again we find that decades after the cross -- that Christ is our High Priest in heaven actively engaged in ministry for us - AND that this work had to first have the Atoning Sacrifice "completed" as Paul says "obedience from the things which He suffered. Having been made perfect He BECAME to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation being designated by God as a High Priest".
In Heb 7 Christ's "completed" once for all atoning sacrifice is noted along side his ongoing High Priestly ministry.
In His role as our High Priest he is the “one Mediator between God and man” that “lives to make intercession for “ us.
1Tim 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Thus the wrath of God unmixed with mercy – is NOT falling upon mankind!
Next we look at the start of that ministry.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In Heb 8 we find that “Now” after the atoning sacrifice was completed – Christ has begun His High Priestly ministry in heaven.
And this is true even “now” in Heb 8 decades after the cross.
We also find that Christ performs His ongoing work as our High Priest seated at the right hand of the Father. And we have a model for that in the OT.
Zech 6
11"Take silver and gold, make an ornate crown and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.
12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."'
We also learn that the earthly sanctuary is an accurate 2-appartment copy (though not to scale) of the heavenly sanctuary.
Heb 9 again tells us WHEN Christ began his high priestly ministry. It was after sheding His blood on the altar of sacrifice – the cross. The completed atoning sacrifice.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
In vs 12 we see not only WHEN Christ began his High Priestly ministry (after the cross) but we see that all of the OT sacrifices are collapsed into the ONE sacrifice and so we do not have Christ going back outside the Sanctuary for "more sacrifices".
Heb 9:
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Thus the cross is not only the Day of Atonement sacrifice - it is all of them. The Passover sacrifice, the morning and evening daily sacrifice for sin etc.
As 1Cor 5 points out "Christ our Passover has been slain".
Next in Heb 9 we see that it is not until Christ begins his role as priest - that He enters the heavenly sanctuary with His blood - for the purpose of dealing with sins, redemption
and salvation within the context of the heavenly sanctuary. In His role as our High Priest He cleanses our conscience from dead works – as we pray and are forgiven. “If anyone sins we HAVE an Advocate with the Father”. 1John 2:1
in Christ,
Bob
And this is true even “now” in Heb 8 decades after the cross.
We also find that Christ performs His ongoing work as our High Priest seated at the right hand of the Father. And we have a model for that in the OT.
Zech 6
11"Take silver and gold, make an ornate crown and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.
12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throne Thus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."'
We also learn that the earthly sanctuary is an accurate 2-appartment copy (though not to scale) of the heavenly sanctuary.
Heb 9 again tells us WHEN Christ began his high priestly ministry. It was after sheding His blood on the altar of sacrifice – the cross. The completed atoning sacrifice.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
In vs 12 we see not only WHEN Christ began his High Priestly ministry (after the cross) but we see that all of the OT sacrifices are collapsed into the ONE sacrifice and so we do not have Christ going back outside the Sanctuary for "more sacrifices".
Heb 9:
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
25 nor was it that He would offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the holy place year by year with blood that is not his own.
26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages He has been manifested to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself.
27 And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,
28 so Christ also, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time for salvation without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him.
Thus the cross is not only the Day of Atonement sacrifice - it is all of them. The Passover sacrifice, the morning and evening daily sacrifice for sin etc.
As 1Cor 5 points out "Christ our Passover has been slain".
Next in Heb 9 we see that it is not until Christ begins his role as priest - that He enters the heavenly sanctuary with His blood - for the purpose of dealing with sins, redemption
and salvation within the context of the heavenly sanctuary. In His role as our High Priest He cleanses our conscience from dead works – as we pray and are forgiven. “If anyone sins we HAVE an Advocate with the Father”. 1John 2:1
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Is it any wonder then that as Paul begins this Heb 7,8,9,10 sequence on the High Priestly ministry of Christ - he introduces it with the appeal that Christians not remain stalled at the infancy stage in Heb 5 and Heb 6:1??
Heb 5 -
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God...
Heb 5 -
10 being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.
11 Concerning him we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing.
12 For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food.
13 For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is an infant.
14 But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil.
Hebrews 6
1 Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God...
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The remaining question then is "Has Christ been doing the priest's work of the Day of Atonement and the Passover as well as all the daily services the entire time since His work as High Priest began or has He done this in a two-phase model as described in the OT?".
In a two phase model Christ would have been doing the antitype fulfilling work of all the daily and all the annual feast days in the Holy Place and then at some point in time He would start the end-of-year Day of Atonement work done specifically by the High Priest.
The other option is that He has been doing all of it since the moment He entered heaven and thus the Day of Atonement work of Christ began 2000 years ago and is still on-going.
We will look at that next.
But first a short comment. In the texts seen so far we have established the "BIBLE SCOPE" for the term "atonement" as found in Lev 16 and have found that it is bigger than Christ's work in the Atoning Sacrifice completed once for all at the cross - it ALSO includes Christ's work as our High Priest.
In His role as our High Priest he is the “one Mediator between God and man” that “lives to make intercession for “ us (Heb 7).
1Tim 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Thus the wrath of God unmixed with mercy – is NOT falling upon mankind!
This "Bible concept" for atonement is a wonderful solution for the Arminian argument of free will because the Atonement includes the individual redemptive interactive Work of Christ for the living in all ages "If we sin we HAVE an advocate with the Father" -- "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins". When an Arminian chooses to ignore the Lev 16 scope for atonement and slice-off that chapter as soon as the atoning sacrifice is made (the cross) THEN they are at the mercy of the Calvinist argument for limited atonement that says you must either choose limited atonement at the cross - or universalism because there is no such thing in the OT model given by God as atonement completed for an individual and yet that individual remains with their own debt still hanging over their head.
So when does this role for Christ end? Well everyone can easily agree that at the 2nd coming Christ cannot still be trying to shield the saints from the wrath of God - "interceeding for us" as the "one mediator" rather the living saints are glorified and are with Christ in perfect harmony with God.
In Rev 15 we are shown that this role for Christ - as the "one mediator between God and man" ends before the 7 last plagues. And the result is that the 7 last plagues (Rev 16) are poured out on mankind -- the "wrath of God unmixed" with mercy Rev 14:10
But until then the full scope of Atonement includes the act of intercession and forgiveness for each soul that comes to God through Christ.
Now to resolve the issue of;
1. One phase ministry in heaven – with all of the antitype services for High Priest going on in heaven for us for 2000 years in the person of Christ.
2. Or two-phase ministry in heaven - as we see in the OT model with a daily service all year long followed by an end of year Day of Atonement finale.
in Christ,
Bob
In a two phase model Christ would have been doing the antitype fulfilling work of all the daily and all the annual feast days in the Holy Place and then at some point in time He would start the end-of-year Day of Atonement work done specifically by the High Priest.
The other option is that He has been doing all of it since the moment He entered heaven and thus the Day of Atonement work of Christ began 2000 years ago and is still on-going.
We will look at that next.
But first a short comment. In the texts seen so far we have established the "BIBLE SCOPE" for the term "atonement" as found in Lev 16 and have found that it is bigger than Christ's work in the Atoning Sacrifice completed once for all at the cross - it ALSO includes Christ's work as our High Priest.
In His role as our High Priest he is the “one Mediator between God and man” that “lives to make intercession for “ us (Heb 7).
1Tim 2: 5For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1John 2:1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;
Thus the wrath of God unmixed with mercy – is NOT falling upon mankind!
This "Bible concept" for atonement is a wonderful solution for the Arminian argument of free will because the Atonement includes the individual redemptive interactive Work of Christ for the living in all ages "If we sin we HAVE an advocate with the Father" -- "If we confess our sins He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins". When an Arminian chooses to ignore the Lev 16 scope for atonement and slice-off that chapter as soon as the atoning sacrifice is made (the cross) THEN they are at the mercy of the Calvinist argument for limited atonement that says you must either choose limited atonement at the cross - or universalism because there is no such thing in the OT model given by God as atonement completed for an individual and yet that individual remains with their own debt still hanging over their head.
So when does this role for Christ end? Well everyone can easily agree that at the 2nd coming Christ cannot still be trying to shield the saints from the wrath of God - "interceeding for us" as the "one mediator" rather the living saints are glorified and are with Christ in perfect harmony with God.
In Rev 15 we are shown that this role for Christ - as the "one mediator between God and man" ends before the 7 last plagues. And the result is that the 7 last plagues (Rev 16) are poured out on mankind -- the "wrath of God unmixed" with mercy Rev 14:10
But until then the full scope of Atonement includes the act of intercession and forgiveness for each soul that comes to God through Christ.
Now to resolve the issue of;
1. One phase ministry in heaven – with all of the antitype services for High Priest going on in heaven for us for 2000 years in the person of Christ.
2. Or two-phase ministry in heaven - as we see in the OT model with a daily service all year long followed by an end of year Day of Atonement finale.
in Christ,
Bob
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Bad translation to use Bob, and you use it only because it fits a pre-determined theology of yours. The word is "propitiation," meaning "satisfaction." Jesus paid the penalty for our sins which legally satisfied the demands of God. This word or concept has nothing to do with the Atoning Sacrifice of Leviticus 16. If the Apostle John were here and you could ask him I doubt that he would give you that reference. I doubt that he had that in mind at all. The verse has nothing to do with the OT Day of Atonement. It is purely and solely speaking of the atonement of Christ. You cannot read into Scripture that which is not there, or take Scripture out of context simply to fit your pre-determined paradigm. Read the context. Context defines meaning. Bob Ryan does not.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Bob, The atonement is a satisfaction of God's wrath and God's righteousness for something or someone. Hebews points out that the Old Testament type had its limitations or flaws. For example the High Preist had to make atonement not merely for the people but for himself - this is not true for the antitype as Christ was without sins. Another flaw is that type required two separate things (1) Priest and (2) Animal sacrifice but Christ was the High Preist and sacrifice in one Person. So it requires multiple types to actually convey the truth found in the antitype.
Here is where your position is flawed. Instead of seeing that a combination of types is required to convey the singular truth of the atonement, you split and divide the types in order to come up with your false doctrine of the atonement. For example, your error would be comparible to someone pointing out that the Priest had to offer up a sacrifice for his own sins in addition to another sacrifice for the people and thus requiring that Christ had to make a sacrifice for the people on earth and then made another sacrifice for himself in heaven. For example, your error would be comparible to someone pointing out that since the Priest and sacrifice were distinct and separate from each other in the type therefore the antitype (Christ) could not possibly be both the Preist and sacrifice.
Your error fails in two essential areas. Not only does it require two distinct and separate things (Preist and animal) to convey the truth of ONE antitype (High Preist who offers up himself) and two distinct offerings for sin (one for the Priest and another for the people) to convey the true that the antitype is sinless and the provision for sinlessness for the people but the type requires sacrifice of the animal and its application in the holy and holy place to convey the finished work of the antitype by the cross.
Another failure in your position is to see the true meaning of the tabernacle on earth in regard to the redemptive work of the Triune God in regard to eternity and time.
The tabernacle/temple on earth is a type of three things. (1) It is a type of the Triune God. (2) It is a type of The Trinue redemptive work of God of the whole man. (3) It is a type of the whole man.
In regard to the Triune Nature of God. We will combine #1 and #2 to more easily show what I mean. The outer court was the only part made visible to the world. God the Son was made flesh and dwelt among us and he condemned sin in "the flesh" on the cross - the outer court is a type of God the Son. The holy place is where the oil burned on the candlesticks; where the altar of incense was and the table of shewbread. This represents the Person of the Holy Spirit and His work in redemption. The holy of holiest represents the dwelling place of the Father in heaven. This is where the cheribums and ark existed. This represents the Father's part in redemption.
In regard to the whole nature of man. Salvation is designed to save the whole man. Salvation is represented in scripture under three tenses (past, present, future) and three primary direct applications to the actual person of man (regeneration; sanctification; glorification). The outer court represents the body of man or what the world sees when it looks at you. The salvation of the body is future ("shall be saved") and is the work of glorification (I Cor. 15). What is born of the Spirit is not the body but "spirit" (Jn. 3:6). The Spirit bears witness with our spirit because it is in our spirit that the Holy Spirit dwells, thus the holy of holies. The new birth is always spoken of in the past tense ("saved"). The soul of man is inclusive of his daily life. Here is where all the conscious activity of man exists (the holy place) for as a man thinketh so is he - this is the progressive sanctification aspect of salvation whereby our minds, volition and emotions are being made to count for Christ, our time is being redeemed or being lost - this is where conscious fellowship with God occurs and our lives are represented in the progressive present tense aspect of salvation.
In regard to the eternal purpose of God the atonement of Christ is finished at the cross and the elect are already completely saved in God's sight (Rom. 8:28b-39; Rev. 5:9)). However, in regard to TIME and SPACE Christ is "seated" in heaven showing his atoning work is finished and His presence in heaven as the Lion/Lamb holding the seven sealed book is simply bringing to fruition in time and space what he has already purchased by His blood. Hence, the progression from the outer court to the holy of holies and then to the holiest place in regard to the salvation of the whole man is progressive only as we look at it in TIME and SPACE. In time and space the cross occurred two thousand years ago and the application to the individual elect occurs in TIME and SPACE as they are born into the world and according to God's timing the atonement is applied to their person in time and space:
Gal. 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace,
16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
The work of our High Preist in heaven is simply to OBTAIN in time and space what he has already purchased by His blood and His presence as the LAMB slain in heaven is sufficient to silence the accuser and satisfy all the righteous demands of God against our sins. He sits in heaven upon the throne as the LION LAMB with the seven sealed book progressively making claim to what is rightfuly his by purchase until He ushers in a new heaven and earth.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1John 2 NIV - Strongs 2434: Hilasmos
2 and He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
“Atoning Sacrifice” NIV (Strongs 2434: Greek: Hilasmos
It has been suggested that the NIV translators "got that wrong" and that the Greek term Hilasmos is talking more about appeasing an angry deity (propitiation) and not atonement (God so loved that He gave). I for one am not often fond of quoting the NIV myself - but I would never argue that just because they are wrong in some areas - that every word they translate is in error. So let us see if they are correct on the subject of Hilasmos.
========================================
Lev 25:9 Hilasmos – “Atonement”
kjv: 9Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
NASB: 9'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land.
Ezek 44:27 – Septuagint “Sin Offering” (Strongs 2434 root word: Hilasmos
27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezek 45:20 “Make Atonement” Kaphar (Heb) (strongs 2433 Hilaskomai -- hilaskomai (the verb), from which hilasmos and hilasterion are derived
45:20
NIV: 20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.
Holman: 20 You must do the same thing on the seventh [day] of the month for everyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance. In this way you will make atonement for the temple
NASB: 20"Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house.
----
The point remains.
in Christ,
Bob
2 and He Himself is the atoning sacrifice for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.
“Atoning Sacrifice” NIV (Strongs 2434: Greek: Hilasmos
It has been suggested that the NIV translators "got that wrong" and that the Greek term Hilasmos is talking more about appeasing an angry deity (propitiation) and not atonement (God so loved that He gave). I for one am not often fond of quoting the NIV myself - but I would never argue that just because they are wrong in some areas - that every word they translate is in error. So let us see if they are correct on the subject of Hilasmos.
========================================
Lev 25:9 Hilasmos – “Atonement”
kjv: 9Then shalt thou cause the trumpet of the jubile to sound on the tenth day of the seventh month, in the day of atonement shall ye make the trumpet sound throughout all your land.
NASB: 9'You shall then sound a ram's horn abroad on the tenth day of the seventh month; on the day of atonement you shall sound a horn all through your land.
Ezek 44:27 – Septuagint “Sin Offering” (Strongs 2434 root word: Hilasmos
27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezek 45:20 “Make Atonement” Kaphar (Heb) (strongs 2433 Hilaskomai -- hilaskomai (the verb), from which hilasmos and hilasterion are derived
45:20
NIV: 20 You are to do the same on the seventh day of the month for anyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance; so you are to make atonement for the temple.
Holman: 20 You must do the same thing on the seventh [day] of the month for everyone who sins unintentionally or through ignorance. In this way you will make atonement for the temple
NASB: 20"Thus you shall do on the seventh day of the month for everyone who goes astray or is naive; so you shall make atonement for the house.
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The point remains.
in Christ,
Bob
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Dr. Walter
New Member
In understandable common sense applicable langauge it simply means "satisfaction." The atonement SATISFIED God's wrath against sin. This is why Christ could say "it is finished" or more literally "paid in full" as the bill was SATISFIED by Christ's death.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And thus "atoning sacrifice" fits your definition of atonement since you appear to believe that appeasement and atonement are the same thing? Or are you arguing that the term "Atoning sacrifice" does not fit your understanding of the Cross? You appear to be arguing that you are fine with "Atoning Sacrifice" as you try to work that into a form of "appeasing an angry deity" (Propitiation).
Your term "satisfaction" would seem to fit expiation.
In any case I am happy to agree that the "atoning sacrifice" provides the full price of the debt of sin that the Law of God requires. That much is correct in what you say. As Colossians 2 points out "our certificate of debt" is nailed to the cross which satisfies the Law of God rather than making it void.
As has been pointed out - Hebrews points to Christ on earth at the cross as the Sacrifice and AND ALSO it points to His work in heaven as High Priest. (As the many texts provided so far illustrate in triplicate). Christ's work at the cross and His work in heaven are BOTH identified in the book of Hebrews. As we saw when we read the texts of my opening statement here - One role of Christ follows the other. It is "in the text" you are so careful not to quote when complaining about my acceptance of it.
But surely you must admit that it is impossible for the Bible student to turn a blind eye to this detail in the text.
The other obvious point here is that Lev 16 does not end when the sin offering is slain. Rather the High Priests work in the sanctuary "follows".
And as Paul points out in Heb 8 and 9 -- that Sanctuary in this case is in heaven.
in Christ,
Bob
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After the Temple was destroyed in 70 AD the rabbis (Pharisees) had a problem. Did the end of the Temple mean that every Jew for the forceable future would die in his sins?
The rabbis concluded that the sacrifices did NOT remove their sins but were a visualization that their sins HAD BEEN removed by repentance and restoration where possible. In other words, the same approach that Baptists use to justify their theology of baptism.
The rabbis concluded that the sacrifices did NOT remove their sins but were a visualization that their sins HAD BEEN removed by repentance and restoration where possible. In other words, the same approach that Baptists use to justify their theology of baptism.
Dr. Walter
New Member
It is a satisfaction. In regard to the Law it satisfies the wrath/penalty of God's Law against sin. In regard to the people it is applied to, it is the purchased redemption from the auction block of sin and thus a satisfaction of a purchased price. The atonement in Leviticus cannot be separated from the satisfaction of divine justice against sin and from a special people redeemed from sin. It is satisfies both accounts.
And what also has been pointed out is that it requires more than two types to correctly present one truth found in the antitype. The typology has (1) a priest and (2) a sacrifice but that is combined as one in the antitype as Christ is both the priest and sacrifice.
The same is true with the sacrifice on the altar. The sacrifice on the altar is not the atonement in and of itself. The atonement was not finished until the High Preist not only made the application in the holy of holies but in addition went out side the camp and placed his hands on the head of the live goat and let him loose into the wilderness. Likewise, the cross is worthless apart from the resurrection and ascension. What Christ brought into heaven was HIMSELF as our FINISHED salvation and thus he was SEATED in heaven signifying it was COMPLETED.
The high priest on earth never was seated in any aspect demonstrating his atonement was never finished in any aspect. The FINISHED atonement involves the cross, resurrection and ascension into heaven as the FINISHED work of Christ. He now is SEATED in heaven and the only thing happening on earth is the application of that FINISHED work in heaven.
Just as it took the high preist and animal combined to convey the truth of Jesus as both High priest and sacrifice, it takes the High priest, sacrifice in outer court, inner court applications, external release of the live goat to convey the singular truth of a FINISHED ATONEMENT. The cross, resurrection and ascension conveys the work as FINISHED. The cross finishes the penalty and purchased price. The resurrection demonstrates it is finished. Entrance into heaven is the presentation as Finished and that is why Christ as High Preist is SEATED in heaven. Hence, it is contrary to the POSITION of Christ as High Preist in heaven to speak of some unfinished work of our High Preist going on in heaven.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
interesting that you bring that up. Depending on how far down the timeline in history that Dan 8's "time of the end" context takes us with the chapter 8 vision - the "Sanctuary" of Dan 8 may well be the one in Heb 8 - the one in heaven, since at some point in time (i.e. 70A.D ) the earthly sanctuary no longer exists.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Agreed to that point.
Which is why I kept pointing to the statements in Heb 4,5,7 that all show that Christ was STILL ministering as High Priest as of the writing of the book of Hebrews DECADES after Christ went to heaven!
And that is also why in my prior posts I brought in the Zech 6 detail of the High Priest doing his work SEATED on His Throne.
Zech 6
11"Take silver and gold, make an ornate crown and set it on the head of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest.
12"Then say to him, 'Thus says the LORD of hosts, "Behold, a man whose name is Branch, for He will branch out from where He is; and He will build the temple of the LORD.
13"Yes, it is He who will build the temple of the LORD, and He who will bear the honor and sit and rule on His throneThus, He will be a priest on His throne, and the counsel of peace will be between the two offices."'
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched not man.
in Christ,
Bob
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Dr. Walter
New Member
The Seventh Day Adventist interpretation of the cleasning of the sanctuary in Daniel 8 is complete and utter ignorance on public display.
Dan. 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
1. First the term "days" is not found in the Hebrew text
2. It is not found because he is not talking about "days" but about the common "DAILY" morning and evening offering.
"How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice," - V. 13
3. Therefore the number of days is one thousand and one hundred and fifty days or almost three and half years exactly.
4. So much for the hocus pocus SDA prophetic years when it is not talking about years or days but about the morning and evening sacrfices.
Dan. 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
Ex. 29: 38 ¶ Now this is that which thou shalt offer upon the altar; two lambs of the first year day by day continually.
39 The one lamb thou shalt offer in the morning; and the other lamb thou shalt offer at even:
Historically, this occured under Antiochus Epiphanes but others see the final application in Revelation 13 under the future Antichrist.
Dr. Walter
New Member
You are confusing what I said about the typology in the Old Testament with the reality in the New Testament. In the Old Testament the Atonment was a PROCESS because there was no type to combine all of its aspects together as one event. In the New Testament the antitype is completed on the Cross, proven completed by the resurrection and then presented as completed in heaven and that is precisely why Christ as our High Priest is SEATED in heaven because His High Preistly work is FINISHED. What is not finished is its application to the elect on earth as some are not yet born and others are having it applied by the Holy Spirit.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So far in my review of Hebrews and the High Priestly role of Christ I have shown that the Lev 16 concept of Atonement goes BEYOND vs 9 (Lev 16:9) where the sin offering is slain. The chapters does not end there.
It continues with the work of the High Priest in the Sanctuary.
2. Then I show that Heb 8 points to Christ as starting His High Priestly role for us in heaven's antitypical Sanctuary - at His ascension. Noting that the text says that "If He were on earth He would NOT be a priest at all". Heb 8:4
3. And a side note was added that by expanding the Atonement concept to include BOTH the work of Christ at the cross AND the work of Christ in heaven as our High Priest - the limited-atonement argument for Calvinism is no longer a way to argue for arbitrary selection with Arminians.
So while the points are favorable to the Arminian POV so far - they have yet to be "distinctly Seventh-day Adventist". But fear not - that part is coming soon.
But first note that in Dan 9 you have the 70 week prophecy (vs2 4) - (490 years in Daniel's day for a year model) - pointing down to the coming of "Messiah the Prince" (vs 25). This predicts the first coming of Christ (annointed at His baptism for ministry) - and it also predicts his 3 and a half year minstry after which He was "cut off" - crucified.
The fact that Daniel is using a day for a year ruler in his vision is accepted by almost every denomination on the planet.
in Christ,
Bob
It continues with the work of the High Priest in the Sanctuary.
2. Then I show that Heb 8 points to Christ as starting His High Priestly role for us in heaven's antitypical Sanctuary - at His ascension. Noting that the text says that "If He were on earth He would NOT be a priest at all". Heb 8:4
3. And a side note was added that by expanding the Atonement concept to include BOTH the work of Christ at the cross AND the work of Christ in heaven as our High Priest - the limited-atonement argument for Calvinism is no longer a way to argue for arbitrary selection with Arminians.
So while the points are favorable to the Arminian POV so far - they have yet to be "distinctly Seventh-day Adventist". But fear not - that part is coming soon.
But first note that in Dan 9 you have the 70 week prophecy (vs2 4) - (490 years in Daniel's day for a year model) - pointing down to the coming of "Messiah the Prince" (vs 25). This predicts the first coming of Christ (annointed at His baptism for ministry) - and it also predicts his 3 and a half year minstry after which He was "cut off" - crucified.
The fact that Daniel is using a day for a year ruler in his vision is accepted by almost every denomination on the planet.
in Christ,
Bob