scriptmemory
Member
Don't forget this question with reference to the original languages:
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Atonement ‘made’ …WHERE?
- Thread starter Gerhard Ebersoehn
- Start date
What does that red herring have to do with my question to you and Bob which has been asked so many times I have lost count.
I ask you again: What is a temple? What is its purpose?
And you still won't answer. You act like a child.
If you don't want to carry on an intelligent debate here why do you stay and post? There are other message boards.
I don't read every conversation between you and Dr. Walter. Mostly I skim through them. I did note that Dr. Walter defined "temple" for you because of your obstinacy (or perhaps ignorance), but in your conversation with me you have failed to do so. So as far as you conversing with me, no, you have not defined "temple" or given me the purpose of a temple. As far as I am concerned Dr. Walters has done it for you, but I am not sure if you followed him.
scriptmemory
Member
DHK must have overlooked that God's throne is in His temple.
I didn't know quoting Scripture is a Muslim thing, consultation of lexicons and dictionaries is childish, opinions only are needed, when a question is asked over and over it better be answered how it was intended to be answered or attack is forthcoming...
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And you still fail to answer a simple question.
Why do you bother to stay here?
scriptmemory
Member
DHK still has to demonstrate that Strong's Greek and Hebrew was wrong enough to provoke his displeasure of my agreement with Strong's on what temple and sanctuary mean in the Bible. Is it because he agrees with Strong's definition but is afraid to agree with me that he hasn't commented on it?
It is no bother but a joy to be able to analyze the Scriptures and discuss them. I hope that will actually happen here.
I'll be interested in a Bible perspective on the Hebrew and Greek of the throne of God, the lamb in Rev. 14 and the time warp dilemma of Rev. 21.
Then again we can also have more speculation, more facts glossed over and more of how to avoid studying what the Bible says about the subject.
A dictionary or lexicon will not tell you what the purpose of a temple is.
The sources you use will only give you a strictly literal definition.
All you show on this board is ignorance and arrogance. It is not intelligent, and not Christian. Again, there are other places to post if you don't care to carry on intelligent conversation.
Before analyzing Scripture with you, you must demonstrate to me that you know what the words in the Scripture mean. If you don't know what the word "temple" means or what its purpose is, what's the purpose in discussing those particular verses?
scriptmemory
Member
DHK, unless an obvious symbol is used, I believe the literal meaning of the text should be taken. God did create the world, really create it. Samson was a strong man, a really strong man. God has a throne in a temple Isaiah saw in chapter 6 and as Paul talks about in Hebrews 8 and 9 and which John sees in the Revelation. He really does. Presuming to expound the Scriptures at some mystical level that denies the literal is arrogance. (Jer. 13:15; Hab. 2:4.)
Contrary to your claims, Strong's gave both a physical location as a definition of temple, and services and rights as the meaning. That is both definition and purpose.
I agree with him.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Paul claims that the atonement was already obtained previous to Christ's entrance into heaven:
Heb. 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Hebrews 10:1-4 has in view the day of atonement that was performed year by year.
Heb. 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
What the High Preist did every year on the day of atonement had to be repeated year by year over and over again. His work never ceased because it could never really remove sin.
Hebrews 10:5-9 presents the antitype of the day of atonement or the sacrifice of Christ on the cross offered up ONCE FOR EVER in direct contrast to that offered up "every year."
Hebrews 10:10 declares it is the sacrifice of the body of Christ at Calvary that "SANCTIFIES" us "ONCE FOR ALL." The term "sanctifies" means to "set apart, separate" as in the application of the blood to the temple, to the goat sent into the wilderness, to the people standing outside the temple. The term "sanctifies" refers to APPLICATION.
Heb. 10:10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Hebrews 10:11 refers to the continuing preistly work in the temple. The temple ministry was never finished previous to the cross. However, when Christ offered up himself on the cross and entered into heaven he SEATED himself signifying the temple ministry was finished. The temple ministry on the day of atonement (Heb. 10:3-9). He is our Melchezidek or Priest/KING.
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
Not only did sitting down demand the temple ministry of the High Preist is finished but where he sat down implied something else that has begun (KING). He sat down on the right hand of God or in the position of POWER. The Power is symbolized by taking the seven sealed book in Revelation 5 which is the title deed to this creation which he purchased by his blood. Sitting down on the right hand of God signified that he is now governing over this world in the process of reclaiming what He has purchased as the writer goes on to say:
Heb. 10:13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
In other words, he is now in the process of overthrowing his enemies and reclaiming his creation. The KINGLY aspect of Melchezidek has begun when He became seated on the throne.
However, the temple ministry has been finished as He goes on to say:
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
The day of atonement in leviticus 16 NEVER allowed the people of God entrance into the holy of holies. The day of atonement in Leviticus 16 NEVER remitted sins literally.
Now take note that the people of God ON EARTH can enter the holy of holies in heaven:
Heb. 10:19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
This was impossible on the day of atonement (1) because it was a "shadow" that never actually removed sin; (2) however, in the "shadow" this blessing did not occur in TYPE until after the High Priest had FINISHED HIS TEMPLE MINISTRY on the day of atonement. Hebrews 10:19 demands the TEMPLE MINISTRY HAS BEEN FINISHED by our High Priest or else we could not enter into the holy of holies! Why? Because as long as the High Priest was in the process of the temple ministry on the day of Atonement NO MAN COULD ENTER into the holy place. Only after the High Preist FINISHED His temple ministry on the day of atonement was he able to BLESS THE PEOPLE:
Lev. 16:17 And there shall be no man in the tabernacle of the congregation when he goeth in to make an atonement in the holy place, until he come out, and have made an atonement for himself, and for his household, and for all the congregation of Israel.
He does not come out and make an atonement for himself and the congregation of Israel until after the scape goat is set free in the wilderness (Lev. 16:23-24). Hence, the TEMPLE WORK OF THE HIGH PRIEST IS FINISHED ON THE DAY OF ATONEMENT when he comes out and blesses the People revealing their sins have been remitted. Paul says this has already happened and now we are blessed and the proof is that we can come bodly into the holy of holies by the blood of Christ.
Present ACCESS into the Holy holies is proof the DAY OF ATONEMENT TEMPLE WORK IS FINISHED.
19 ¶ Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
WHILE THE HIGH PRIESTLY TEMPLE WORK OF ATONMENT WAS IN PROGRESS NONE COULD ENTER THE HOLIEST BUT THE HIGH PRIEST. HOWEVER CHRIST IS SEATED AS THE HIGH PREIST, HIS TEMPLE WORK IS OVER AND THAT IS PRECISELY WHY WE CAN COME BOLDLY INTO THE HOLIEST PLACE NOW!
What work is Christ doing as our High Preist in heaven now? He is SEATED upon the throne "expecting his enemies to be his footstool" - He is doing the work of RECLAIMING His creation as King of kings and Lord of lords. His Temple work as High Preist is over, now his KINGLY work as High Preist (Melchizidek - priest/king) work as commenced.
I have already thoroughly exposed this interpretation as absolute eisgetical foolishness. The preceding and following verses have to do with the "daily" evening and morning sacrifice not the day of atonement. The Hebrew text says "evening morning" and is not the Hebrew expression used in Genesis one for 24 hour days. The Greek Septuigent is no more inspired than any other translation of the Bible and can NEVER replace the original text as your argument depends entirely upon.
The immediate context of Daniel 8 has nothing to do with the day of atonement or the "cleansing" on the day of atonement. The "cleansing" of the temple on the day of atonement was not finished until the High Preist had blessed the people signifying their sins had been remitted and Paul says that has already occurred (Heb. 10:10-18) and absolute proof is that we can "boldy" enter into the holiest.
Furthermore, Bob, please tell us what is not made with hands, and yet is defiled by sin in heaven that needs cleansing by the blood of Christ????
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Heb. 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
On the day of atonement, redemption or remission of sins was not obtained in figure at the brazen altar in the outer court with the killing of the sacrifice. It was not "obtained" in figure until AFTER all the TEMPLE APPLICATION OF THE BLOOD was applied and the preist appeared before the people and blessed them. This blessing was evidence the TYPE of atonement had been procurred and the people could go back home.
Therefore "redemption" on the day of atonement was INCLUSIVE OF THE WHOLE TEMPLE MINISTRY having been completed. The WHOLE TEMPLE MINISTRY by the High Priest on the day of atonement symbolizes the WHOLE ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION. The temple, its courts, it sacrifices, its priesthood, its furnature = the eternal covenant of redemption. Christ "obtained" this prior to entering heaven.
The writer of Hebrews tells us that the blood of Christ which represents HIS LIFE given IN DEATH validated the NEW COVENANT. With the LIFE of Christ given IN DEATH signified by the shedding of His blood as the public validation of the New Covenant the whole Old Covenant was at that point in time publicly invalidated. This was done BEFORE entrance into heaven. This was accomplished IN HIS DEATH when HIS LIFE was given up as signified by the SHEDDING OF HIS BLOOD. Thus when Christ said, "IT IS FINISHED" or more literally "IT IS PAID IN FULL" the new covenant was then publicly ratified and the old covenant was abolished. Not part of the New Covenant but ALL of the New Covenant was publicly ratified. Not part of the Old Covenant but ALL the Old Covenant was abolished.
Furthermore, Romans 5 tells us that when Jesus actually lived and died he did not live and die merely in an individual or personal capacity. Rather He acted in the capacity of a representative for all who wil be actual recipients of the consequences of his representative work (Rom. 5:17).
Rom. 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore in regard to his REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY eternal redemption had been obtained for all the people of God when he said "it is finished."
In regard to the "everlasting covenant" of redemption which I believe is signified in heaven by the twenty-four elders and four beasts we find them in Revelation 4-5 has having been fully redeemed. They are seated on thrones reigning with God, they are already crowned (Rev. 4). All creation is found praising Christ as the LION of the tribe of Judah who had entered heaven as the LAMB (Rev. 5) - This is a vision of a FINISHED and COMPLETED Redeemed creation.
Christ entered heaven "having obtained redemption" already in regard to His REPRESENTATIVE capacity in behalf of his people and creation (Rev. 4-5) and thus the eternal covenant of redemption and he became seated on the throne demonstrating a transition of the Melchezadek TYPE from the High Priestly side to the KINGLY side who is simply reclaiming His people and creation ON THE BAIS OF THE FINISHED WORK OF REDEMPTION already obtained.
The temple in heaven, the furnature of that temple, the things needing cleansing that are SEEN by men through visions into the SPIRITUAL WORLD consisting of NON-PHYSICAL realities simply represent the ETERNAL COVENANT of Redemption that was VALIDATED by the blood of Christ - HIS LIFE given in DEATH thus cleansing them not because of LITERAL sin in heaven that needed to be cleansed but because of the ETERNAL PURPOSE OF REDEMPTION in heaven that needed the actual life given in death by Christ (his blood) to apply cleansing to His people and creation purposed before the world began and signified by those things in Revelation 4-5.
On the day of atonement, redemption or remission of sins was not obtained in figure at the brazen altar in the outer court with the killing of the sacrifice. It was not "obtained" in figure until AFTER all the TEMPLE APPLICATION OF THE BLOOD was applied and the preist appeared before the people and blessed them. This blessing was evidence the TYPE of atonement had been procurred and the people could go back home.
Therefore "redemption" on the day of atonement was INCLUSIVE OF THE WHOLE TEMPLE MINISTRY having been completed. The WHOLE TEMPLE MINISTRY by the High Priest on the day of atonement symbolizes the WHOLE ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION. The temple, its courts, it sacrifices, its priesthood, its furnature = the eternal covenant of redemption. Christ "obtained" this prior to entering heaven.
The writer of Hebrews tells us that the blood of Christ which represents HIS LIFE given IN DEATH validated the NEW COVENANT. With the LIFE of Christ given IN DEATH signified by the shedding of His blood as the public validation of the New Covenant the whole Old Covenant was at that point in time publicly invalidated. This was done BEFORE entrance into heaven. This was accomplished IN HIS DEATH when HIS LIFE was given up as signified by the SHEDDING OF HIS BLOOD. Thus when Christ said, "IT IS FINISHED" or more literally "IT IS PAID IN FULL" the new covenant was then publicly ratified and the old covenant was abolished. Not part of the New Covenant but ALL of the New Covenant was publicly ratified. Not part of the Old Covenant but ALL the Old Covenant was abolished.
Furthermore, Romans 5 tells us that when Jesus actually lived and died he did not live and die merely in an individual or personal capacity. Rather He acted in the capacity of a representative for all who wil be actual recipients of the consequences of his representative work (Rom. 5:17).
Rom. 5:17 For if by one man’s offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Therefore in regard to his REPRESENTATIVE CAPACITY eternal redemption had been obtained for all the people of God when he said "it is finished."
In regard to the "everlasting covenant" of redemption which I believe is signified in heaven by the twenty-four elders and four beasts we find them in Revelation 4-5 has having been fully redeemed. They are seated on thrones reigning with God, they are already crowned (Rev. 4). All creation is found praising Christ as the LION of the tribe of Judah who had entered heaven as the LAMB (Rev. 5) - This is a vision of a FINISHED and COMPLETED Redeemed creation.
Christ entered heaven "having obtained redemption" already in regard to His REPRESENTATIVE capacity in behalf of his people and creation (Rev. 4-5) and thus the eternal covenant of redemption and he became seated on the throne demonstrating a transition of the Melchezadek TYPE from the High Priestly side to the KINGLY side who is simply reclaiming His people and creation ON THE BAIS OF THE FINISHED WORK OF REDEMPTION already obtained.
The temple in heaven, the furnature of that temple, the things needing cleansing that are SEEN by men through visions into the SPIRITUAL WORLD consisting of NON-PHYSICAL realities simply represent the ETERNAL COVENANT of Redemption that was VALIDATED by the blood of Christ - HIS LIFE given in DEATH thus cleansing them not because of LITERAL sin in heaven that needed to be cleansed but because of the ETERNAL PURPOSE OF REDEMPTION in heaven that needed the actual life given in death by Christ (his blood) to apply cleansing to His people and creation purposed before the world began and signified by those things in Revelation 4-5.
You can agree with him all you want and be completely clueless about what a temple is and the purpose of it. I will give you an example.
I used to be a Biology teacher. I worked hard to attain my degree. (I have more than one).
Here is a definition for you:
Shehan's Syndrome is postpartum hypopituitarianism resulting from the ischemic necrosis of the pituitary.
Now, you can either tell me what I said in your own words, or,
you can go to your dictionaries and look up the words and figure out what I said.
Either way I doubt if you will come to a full understanding of what Sheehan's Syndrome is. True?
Those that were in my class would have had a hard time understanding justification and atonement because it was not in their field of study. Every science has their own terminology. You obviously don't know your own terms in this field of theology, or else you would be able to define them in your own words. But you can't. Your are just plain ignorant, unless you can prove to me otherwise.
Dr. Walter
New Member
The WHOLE day of Atonement, the priest, temple, furniture, sacrifices typify the WHOLE eternal covenant of redemption. This WHOLE eternal covenant was publicly ratified and at the cross when the LIFE of Christ was given in DEATH.
The application of the ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION has been prior to the cross APPLIED by faith in the promise of God of the coming Christ:
Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
"Having obtained" our redemption PRIOR to entering heaven and thus VALIDATING the ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION as signified in the 24 elders, four beasts and reclaimed creation in Revelation 4-5, he now is acting in the Melchezidek capacity as KING in APPLYING what has already been "obtained."
The "cleansing" of things in heaven does not refer to anything in heaven that is ACTUALLY sinful as sin cannot enter into heaven. Sin cannot enter or abide in the presence of God.
The "cleansing" of "things" is the ceremonial language that signifies that the eternal covenant of redemption has been VALIDATED by Christ's shed blood and is no more simply PROMISE but LEGALLY VALIDATED in its PAST application of the precross sins of the saints as well as the sin that contaminates creation giving Christ the rightful heir of creation the legal authority and power to reclaim His people and creation from the power of sin and presence of sin. Hence, this "cleansing" simply refers to the LEGAL VINDICATION for remission of sins, past, present and future and Christ's LEGAL right to reclaim His people and creation according to what God had only PROMISED and applied BY FAITH in that promise prior to the Cross.
The application of the ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION has been prior to the cross APPLIED by faith in the promise of God of the coming Christ:
Rom. 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
"Having obtained" our redemption PRIOR to entering heaven and thus VALIDATING the ETERNAL COVENANT OF REDEMPTION as signified in the 24 elders, four beasts and reclaimed creation in Revelation 4-5, he now is acting in the Melchezidek capacity as KING in APPLYING what has already been "obtained."
The "cleansing" of things in heaven does not refer to anything in heaven that is ACTUALLY sinful as sin cannot enter into heaven. Sin cannot enter or abide in the presence of God.
The "cleansing" of "things" is the ceremonial language that signifies that the eternal covenant of redemption has been VALIDATED by Christ's shed blood and is no more simply PROMISE but LEGALLY VALIDATED in its PAST application of the precross sins of the saints as well as the sin that contaminates creation giving Christ the rightful heir of creation the legal authority and power to reclaim His people and creation from the power of sin and presence of sin. Hence, this "cleansing" simply refers to the LEGAL VINDICATION for remission of sins, past, present and future and Christ's LEGAL right to reclaim His people and creation according to what God had only PROMISED and applied BY FAITH in that promise prior to the Cross.
scriptmemory
Member
DHK asked for a definition and function of temple in the Bible. He didn't like my answer from Strong's definition of temple and sanctuary in the original languages and said it didn't answer to the function question, with a few insults thrown in for "Christian" measure. I pointed out it was both definition and function and he got it and said in effect "Then how do I know YOU understand it?"
I don't see a need to try to convince DHK that I understand James Strong's very simple English. A very brief informal statistical analysis of that opportunity returns, "potential waste of time".
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
That was already more than a little apparent. I was suggesting that you read the detailed responses to the subject of what is the earthly and heavenly temple.
I can respost it if you need a personalized post before reading the answer.
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1631678&postcount=180
Your call.
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said -
the Word of God declares that Christ is IN the sanctuary in Heaven and there He ministers in our behalf.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
There is no "heavenly sanctuary defiled by sin" quote in my post - where do you get that idea?
The text itself states 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Is this the text that you question?
in Christ,
Bob
the Word of God declares that Christ is IN the sanctuary in Heaven and there He ministers in our behalf.
Hebrews 8
1 Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens,
2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man.
Heb 9
11 But when Christ appeared as a high priest of the good things to come, He entered through the greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this creation;
12 and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
There is no "heavenly sanctuary defiled by sin" quote in my post - where do you get that idea?
The text itself states 23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Is this the text that you question?
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan replies
Daniel 8 answers the question "Unto evening morning 2300 and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed".
Christ's High Priestly work in the Holy Place ended as per Daniel's timeline prophecy and Christ's High Priestly work of cleansing of the heavenly sanctuary began at the end of the 2300 years predicted by Daniel 8.
Adam Clarke regarding the 2300 year timeline specified in Dan 8:14 -
Your spin on that idea was fully debunked as it was pointed out that at no point in the scripture is the daily sacrifice referred to as "the daily evening and morning sacrifice". You simply eisegeted an idea out of thin air and called it "thoroughly exposed".
Your suggestion is not as compelling as you may have at first imagined for the unbiased objective Bible student.
You admit that the Hebrew Scholars that translated Hebrew into Greek for the Septuigent do not agree with you in your comment below -
And as we saw earlier a number of Bible scholars admit to this 2300 day element of Daniel 8 even when they differ with Adam Clarke on the day for year principle used in Dan 9 and applied as well to Daniel 8.
Quote:
John Gill
unto two thousand and three hundred days;
or so many "mornings" and "evenings" F8; which shows that not so many years, as Jacchiades, and others, are meant; but natural days, consisting of twenty four hours, and which make six years, three months, and eighteen days;
Quote:
Geneva Study Bible
8:14 And z he said unto me, Unto a two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
(z) Christ answered me for the comfort of the Church.
(a) That is, until so many natural days have passed, which make six years, and three and a half months:
Quote:
Matthew Henry
(2.) The answer given to this question, Daniel 8:14. Christ gives instruction to the holy angels, for they are our fellow-servants; but here the answer was given to Daniel, because for his sake the question was asked: He said unto me. God sometimes gives in great favours to his people, in answer to the enquiries and requests of their friends for them. Now, [1.] Christ assures him that the trouble shall end; it shall continue 2300 days and no longer, so many evenings and mornings (so the word is),
The idea that you have refuted the text of scripture and these Bible scholars that differ with your wild spin - is hardly a compelling argument for the objective unbiased reader.
Daniel 8 answers the question "Unto evening morning 2300 and then shall the sanctuary be cleansed".
in Christ,
Bob
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Cleansing of Sanctuary – Day of Atonement –
Dan 8 NASB
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, "How long will the vision (about the regular sacrifice) apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?"
14 He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."
Dan 8 KJV
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”
Heb 9
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.[/b]
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, butthe heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Lev 16 KJV
30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
The blessing of the people is recorded in Numbers 6:22-27 and was given every day.
Dan 8:14 points forward to the cleansing of the sanctuary and the antitypical day of atonement - predicted to be at the end of the 2300 day-for-a-year timeline given in Dan 8.
in Christ,
Bob
Dan 8 NASB
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking, and another holy one said to that particular one who was speaking, "How long will the vision (about the regular sacrifice) apply, while the transgression causes horror, so as to allow both the holy place and the host to be trampled?"
14 He said to me, "For 2,300 evenings and mornings; then the holy place will be properly restored."
Dan 8 KJV
13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?”
14 And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days; then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”
Heb 9
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.[/b]
23 Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, butthe heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ did not enter a holy place made with hands, a mere copy of the true one, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us;
Lev 16 KJV
30 For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.
32 And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead, shall make the atonement, and shall put on the linen clothes, even the holy garments:
33 And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
34 And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
The blessing of the people is recorded in Numbers 6:22-27 and was given every day.
Dan 8:14 points forward to the cleansing of the sanctuary and the antitypical day of atonement - predicted to be at the end of the 2300 day-for-a-year timeline given in Dan 8.
in Christ,
Bob
Dr. Walter
New Member
Of course 2300 evening and morning sacrifices compute to a number of days and of course those commentators will agree with me concerning a certain number of days.
However, I didn't read anything in the commentators that agreed with you that each day computed is to be understood as a year or 2300 years????? So all you have done is confirmed my interpretation not yours.
However, I didn't read anything in the commentators that agreed with you that each day computed is to be understood as a year or 2300 years????? So all you have done is confirmed my interpretation not yours.
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Dr. Walter
New Member
Of course most commentators will agree with me in computing the 2300 evening and morning sacrifices to a certain number of DAYS but where are the commentators that agree with you that those "days" are to be interpreted a day for a year and 2300 YEARS??????????