Both.
The effectual call which of necessity leads to justification is primarily to the inner man.
The call Adam heard with his physical ears in the garden after the fall was obviously an outer call.
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Are All Men Drawn Equally?
- Thread starter Nicholas25
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Both.
The effectual call which of necessity leads to justification is primarily to the inner man.
The call Adam heard with his physical ears in the garden after the fall was obviously an outer call.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hello Allan,
If we limit Gods calling to only general revelation, than maybe you can build a case that God calls all men equally. Romans 1 is as you know, general revelation. But not all men are given special revelation which is needed for salvation.
Not everyone has their eyes taken from them and at the same time, hears a voice from Heaven as Paul.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Luke:
Obadiah gives us at least one clue and reason as to why they were "hated" by God.
"Ther pride of your heart has decieved you, you who live in the clefts of the rocks and make you home on the heights. You say to yourself, Who can bring me down down to the ground? (3-4)
It is not for me to say what if any sin God detests more than another, but "pride" sure seems to be something God really despises. The kind of pride which causes one to say in his heart, "I acknowledge you not, god."
Jarthur001
Active Member
Context is king. What is Paul talking about?
Romans 2
1Therefore you have no excuse, O man, every one of you who judges. For in passing judgment on another you condemn yourself, because you, the judge, practice the very same things. 2We know that the judgment of God rightly falls on those who practice such things. 3Do you suppose, O man—you who judge those who practice such things and yet do them yourself—that you will escape the judgment of God? 4Or do you presume on the riches of his kindness and forbearance and patience, not knowing that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? 5But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. 6 He will render to each one according to his works: 7to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; 8but for those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, there will be wrath and fury. 9There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, 10but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. 11For God shows no partiality.
quantumfaith
Active Member
These various "calls"...."effectual" and "outer" are creations (interpretations) of man based on various theological systems. ALL systems do this. Even my "non-system", I say non-system because I honestly dont know "what" I am, only confident that I am not "reformed".....
You mean I typed all of that and you just respond to that tiny snippet??
Do you think some people are born more depraved than others?
Do you suppose that all are born equally depraved but some become more depraved due to their surroundings?
How do you account for the fact that some come to Christ and others do not?
Your "non-cal" system makes man the ULTIMATE cause of his own salvation.
"Why are you going to heaven John and JAck is going to hell?"
"Because I chose..."
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Jarthur001
Active Member
What's your point? They are creations of man and not of God???
Can man not compare Scripture against scripture and come to accurate conclusions???
quantumfaith
Active Member
In Romans 1, "I think" he was addressing the "pagans, heathens" the "wise and socially cultured" of the day. (Greeks) Those without the Jewish heritage. Romans 2 seems to me to be that the jews were not to take pride in their vaunted position of Gods chosen people because they were in the same boat as the rest.
Where am I wrong?
quantumfaith
Active Member
My point is, you are tossing out terms, which are perfectfully meaningful and perhaps consistent in your theological system, but not necessarily so. I know you have the Highest of view with regard to scripture, but the terms are created and defined within your own system.
Mathematical systems, for example, can be axiomatically created and be entirely correct (consistent) in applications for Theta, but then simultaneously have not applications (inconsistent) in beta.
quantumfaith
Active Member
Well....
Really God says he hates them to prove his love.
Honest, not snarky, where is that?
quantumfaith
Active Member
I've shown from Scripture that they ARE true. That ought to be enough.
The Trinity is a term not found in Scripture but it CAN be shown to be true BY Scripture.
The fact that there is a call that goes out to all men that is not effectual is plain.
The fact that there is one that those who are called by it are most certainly justified is also abundantly clear.
This is simple enough for a child to grasp, IMO. Only those bent against the notion who have blinded themselves to the truth of it cannot see it.
Jarthur001
Active Member
The Sins of Israel
Murder and Idolatry - Ezekiel 22:3-6
Israel's evil and God’s destruction makes them a laughing stock among the nations - Deuteronomy 28:37; Psalm 44:13; Jeremiah 18:16; 24:9; Daniel 9:16
Israel's kings have promoted murder - Nehemiah 9:34; Isaiah 1:23; Micah 3:1-3, 9-11
Make light of mother and father - Exodus 21:17; Deuteronomy 27:16; Proverbs 20:20; 30:17
Oppressed strangers, mistreated orphans and widows - Exodus 22:21-22; Deuteronomy 27:19; Jeremiah 7:6; Zechariah 7:10
Despised the worship of God and His Sabbath - Leviticus 19:30; Amos 8:4-6; Ezekiel 22:26; Malachi 1:6-8, 12
Slander to cause murder - Leviticus 19:16; Deuteronomy 27:24; I Kings 21:10-13; Psalm 50:20; Jeremiah 9:4; Matthew 26:59; Acts 6:11-13
Fornication while worshiping idols - Deuteronomy 27:15; Psalms 106:28; Exodus 32:6
Incest - Leviticus 18:7-9, 15; 20:11-12, 17; Deuteronomy 27:20, 22-23
Violating the laws of uncleanness - Leviticus 18:19; 20:18
Adultery - Leviticus 18:20; 20:10; Jeremiah 5:8
Bribery - Exodus 23:8; Deuteronomy 16:19; 27:25
Usury - Exodus 22:25; Leviticus 25:35-36; Deuteronomy 23:19; Psalm 15:5
Extortion - Proverbs 1:19; Isaiah 56:11; I Corinthians 5:11; 6:10
Forgetting God - Deuteronomy 32:18; Psalm 106:21; Jeremiah 3:21
Yet..
Deuteronomy 7:6 says, "For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession."
Why?
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
With humor and respect, I do not wish to revist Jack and John.
Let me tell you why I think you feel that way and you tell me if I am wrong or partially wrong and partly right.
I think it is because you CANNOT account for why, when God calls ALL equally, and ALL men are born equally depraved- you can't account for why some come and others do not.
Jack and John prove the logical fallacy of "non-cal election"
quantumfaith
Active Member
On this brother, we disagree. I "think" that what is explains it is simply some men "reject" God while others do not. And you and I disagree about this being a fallacy of logic.
Sorry, but I have to exit, to finish Final Exams, paperwork etc.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Yes..well its the point of the quote.
Malachi 1
God says...
2I have loved you, saith the LORD.
Jacob asked God....
Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us?
God replies...
Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob, 3And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
Again, notice this is showing JACOB that God loves them. The greater the hate the more ity shows Gods love.
Now I like to point this out to people that seem to over look it. Look down in verse 4 and notice the word I placed in bold.
4Whereas Edom saith, We are impoverished, but we will return and build the desolate places; thus saith the LORD of hosts, They shall build, but I will throw down; and they shall call them, The border of wickedness, and, The people against whom the LORD hath indignation for ever.
God does love his people. And.......he KILLS others to prove it.
Isa 43...amp
3For I am the Lord your God, the Holy One of Israel, your Savior; I give Egypt [to the Babylonians] for your ransom, Ethiopia and Seba [a province of Ethiopia] in exchange [for your release]. 4Because you are precious in My sight and honored, and because I love you, I will give men in return for you and peoples in exchange for your life.
No, Jack and John prove free will.
To the Op...
Let's see, we all come into this world the exact same way. We are all given nature that points to God. We are all given a conscience with God's law written on our hearts. We are all created with "eternity on our hearts" which is the desire to be immortal. On top of that God has placed every single human being ever created in the exact location and place in time and geographically to seek Him and "perhaps" reach out to Him although He is not far from each one of us.
I think that pretty much sums up the answer. Yes.
Let's see, we all come into this world the exact same way. We are all given nature that points to God. We are all given a conscience with God's law written on our hearts. We are all created with "eternity on our hearts" which is the desire to be immortal. On top of that God has placed every single human being ever created in the exact location and place in time and geographically to seek Him and "perhaps" reach out to Him although He is not far from each one of us.
I think that pretty much sums up the answer. Yes.
"Simply" never explains anything.
Why is fire hot? It simply is. Well that doesn't explain anything.
Why do some reject Christ while others receive him? They simply do. That is totally worthless.
The reason is clear. God does it.
If all men are all born equally depraved and God draws all men equally then all men should be responding identically.
The fact that they are not is proof that EITHER all men are NOT born equally depraved and some are better than others and the better ones get saved OR God is not drawing all men equally.
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