Are All Men Drawn Equally?

[Robert Snow]

To the Op...

Let's see, we all come into this world the exact same way. We are all given nature that points to God. We are all given a conscience with God's law written on our hearts. We are all created with "eternity on our hearts" which is the desire to be immortal. On top of that God has placed every single human being ever created in the exact location and place in time and geographically to seek Him and "perhaps" reach out to Him although He is not far from each one of us.

I think that pretty much sums up the answer. Yes.

Great post! Praise God!

 

[Luke2427]

Instead of hijacking this thread, why not start another one? I got stuck on nothing...quit patting yourself on the back. Unless you can crawl into either's head YOU don't know why one did and one didn't. YOU will try to tell us why, but it is purely your opinion. The Bible tells us some love the truth and some love the darkness rather than the light. That is what you know, and what I know. Anything further than that is reading into Scripture.

I am not hijacking the thread.

The thread is about whether or not God draws all men equally.

If he draws all men equally then some MUST have some advantage over others since some come and others do not.

John and Jack show that God does NOT draw all men equally.

But just for the record- I wouldn't do it now JUST because you commanded me to. I don't do what you say.

The Bible tells us some love the truth and some love the darkness rather than the light.

No the Bible tells us no such thing. The Bible tells us that men love darkness rather than light and that men WILL NOT come to the light because their deeds are evil.

When you add "some" in their you twist the message of Scripture to suit you.

 

[quantumfaith]

God chose John because he believed in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ. John put his faith in Christ to deliver him from death.

Jack rejected the gospel.


So simple a child can understand.

Oh so true Amy, sometimes in our pointed and heated discussions we lose sight of Matthew 18:3-4

And he said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Also note, I did not emphasize "whoever", trying my best to be nice.

 

[Robert Snow]

Yea and you got stuck on one step and refused to go any further because you knew what it would reveal- that God must have been the one who determined who would be saved.

Correct. God decided that those who CHOOSE to believe in the Gospel are the ones who are CHOSEN.

I know, since we cannot tell you why means it didn't happen, right?

 

[webdog]

If he draws all men equally then some MUST have some advantage over others since some come and others do not.

What kind of logic is this?!? If all are drawn equally...NOBODY has an advantage, Luke! God has placed each human being ever created in the exact, precise location in the world and in time to seek Him. NOBODY has an advantage based on what God has done! God did the reaching out to man first before anyone was ever born.

Since all are drawn equally, all presented with truth, your Jack and Jill discussion needs it's own thread. This is about drawing, not accepting.

 

[Amy.G]

John put his faith in Christ is just another way to say that John- chose Christ, believed in Christ, humbled himself before God, repented, etc...

Just saying the same thing over and over again in a different way does not answer the question.

Here are your options. I am very interested to see if you will tackle this or ignore it. I figure you will either ignore it or repeat the same thing another way.

John got saved because he had some kind of advantage over Jack or ____________________________________________________.

John got saved because_______________________

he believed the gospel.

Prove to me from scripture that John got saved some other way.

Either agree with the statement that John had some advantage over Jack or give an alternative in the blank.

Or ignore the post or repeat the fact that John chose Christ using some other words that mean the same thing as John chose Christ.

John had no advantage over Jack. Each made a different choice based on the free will that God gave them according to His sovereign choice to do so and also because John and Jack were created in God's image meaning they have a will of their own just as their creator does.

 

[Luke2427]

Oh so true Amy, sometimes in our pointed and heated discussions we lose sight of Matthew 18:3-4

And he said: I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

Also note, I did not emphasize "whoever", trying my best to be nice.

And here is the question of this thread- why do some humble themselves as little children (which is just another way of saying that they repent, trust Christ, turn to God, believe the Gospel, etc...) and others do not.

If God draws all men equally then why do not all men come?

Why do some come and others NOT come?

The answer is that John has some advantage over Jack or ____________________________________________________________________________________________________?

What is the alternative? Does John have an advantage over Jack that caused John to humble himself as a little child and turn to God a repent and believe the Gospel and see God for who He is and himself for what he is?

If John DOES have some advantage over Jack- who gave it him? who controlled the circumstances that gave John the advantage?

If John does not have any advantage over Jack whatsoever, what is the alternative reason why John chose Christ whereas Jack did not?

 

[Luke2427]

John got saved because_______________________

he believed the gospel.

Prove to me from scripture that John got saved some other way.

The question is WHY did he believe the Gospel?????

Why did he repent???

Why did he humble himself as a little child??

Why did he turn to God??

Why did he see God for what He is and see himself for what he is?

Why did John do these things and Jack did not?

Here is the question I am trying to get an honest answer from you about: what did John have that Jack did not have and how did John get it???

John had no advantage over Jack. Each made a different choice based on the free will that God gave them according to His sovereign choice to do so and also because John and Jack were created in God's image meaning they have a will of their own just as their creator does.

I'm not arguing that they don't have free will at this point. I am asking you to explain to me why some exercise that Free Will to choose Christ and others exercise it to reject him.

What is it that those who choose Christ have that those who do not choose Christ do not have? And how did they get whatever it was that enabled them or led them to choose Christ, to beleive the Gospel, to humble themselves as little children, to turn to God, etc...?

 

[Amy.G]

The question is WHY did he believe the Gospel?????

Why did he repent???

Why did he humble himself as a little child??

Why did he turn to God??

Why did he see God for what He is and see himself for what he is?

Why did John do these things and Jack did not?

Here is the question I am trying to get an honest answer from you about: what did John have that Jack did not have and how did John get it???

John didn't "have" anything different than Jack.

Why did God save John and not Jack?
Can you answer that?

Why did God save you and not your neighbor?

What did you "have" that your neighbor did not? The question goes both ways.

 

[quantumfaith]

And here is the question of this thread- why do some humble themselves as little children (which is just another way of saying that they repent, trust Christ, turn to God, believe the Gospel, etc...) and others do not.

If God draws all men equally then why do not all men come?

Why do some come and others NOT come?

The answer is that John has some advantage over Jack or ____________________________________________________________________________________________________?

What is the alternative? Does John have an advantage over Jack that caused John to humble himself as a little child and turn to God a repent and believe the Gospel and see God for who He is and himself for what he is?

If John DOES have some advantage over Jack- who gave it him? who controlled the circumstances that gave John the advantage?

If John does not have any advantage over Jack whatsoever, what is the alternative reason why John chose Christ whereas Jack did not?

Luke, it has been asked (by you) and answered by many who say even more simply and eloquently than myself. Now, I know you "reject" my and others response....but "it is what it is".

Luke, (I am smiling as I write this)....You remind me of the Borg on Star Trek. "Resistence is Futile....You WILL be assimilated".....

 

[quantumfaith]

John didn't "have" anything different than Jack.

Why did God save John and not Jack?
Can you answer that?

Why did God save you and not your neighbor?

What did you "have" that your neighbor did not? The question goes both ways.

Amy, that is an easy one. It is the "good will and pleasure of God". Oh no! Is it beginning to stick in my brain. :godisgood:

 

[Luke2427]

John didn't "have" anything different than Jack.

Why did God save John and not Jack?
Can you answer that?

Why did God save you and not your neighbor?

What did you "have" that your neighbor did not? The question goes both ways.

I'll answer that.

But you answer first. If John didn't have anything that Jack didn't have- then why did John come.

It stands to reason that if God draws ALL MEN equally and John doesn;t have anything that Jack doesn't have that BOTH of them would have responded the same way.


We don't make choices arbitrarily. There are reasons for our choices.

They are based on what we know and what we like and what we feel.

Choices are not made willy nilly. There are reasons that guide those choices.

The question is, if free will is true, why do some exercise it to choose Christ and others exercise it to reject Him.

There MUST be something that the receivers have that the rejecters do NOT have if free will is true.

It may be a tender heart or a gentle nature or better upbringing or more spiritual sensitivity- but they MUST have something that the others do not have or they would have made the same choice that the others made.

 

[MB]

You're at the same step just saying it in different ways.

The question is WHY did John choose what he chose and Jack not amek the same choice John did.

What was it about John that caused him to make the right choice?

What did John have in him that Jack did not have?

Some men choose to give up or surrender to God because of there fear. Others will fight to the death and stay in there rebellion. The reason is no two men allows fear to have the same influence. The same is true on any battle field. The saving of men is a battle not between God and evil but between men and evil. God created an escape and that is surrender. We have to give up which is stopping our own rebellion. This isn't doing something to be saved because man cannot boast about giving up. Which in effect, is doing nothing to prevent Salvation any longer. If we do not stop Salvation we will be saved because, of our willingness not to fight it any longer.
Your position ( as I understand it) that God will save who He wants is true only in the light that man surrenders to Him, Rom. 10:1-4. However some men are willing to continue in there rebellion. They aren't made to. They have only themselves to blame for it. If man had no choice man would have no genuine Love for God. Love is never forced. Salvation is forced if God just saves a man with out mans surrender. Our only choice is to surrender or not we decide that, just as the Jews did during the first advent.
I’m puzzled why reformers fight so hard over God giving man the ability to resist Him. It’s so evident in the Bible. Pharaoh was one who did just that. Jonah was another both men paid for there rebellion one was a believer and the other refused unto death. In these two people, freewill could not be clearer. The difference between saved or not is rebellion.

MB

 

[Don]

I called both my kids the other night, intending to give both of them some dessert. I called both their names, and they both answered; but when I said, "come here," only one came.

What advantage did that one have over the other, that the other kid didn't come when called?

 

[quantumfaith]

Some men choose to give up or surrender to God because of there fear. Others will fight to the death and stay in there rebellion. The reason is no two men allows fear to have the same influence. The same is true on any battle field. The saving of men is a battle not between God and evil but between men and evil. God created an escape and that is surrender. We have to give up which is stopping our own rebellion. This isn't doing something to be saved because man cannot boast about giving up. Which in effect, is doing nothing to prevent Salvation any longer. If we do not stop Salvation we will be saved because, of our willingness not to fight it any longer.
Your position ( as I understand it) that God will save who He wants is true only in the light that man surrenders to Him, Rom. 10:1-4. However some men are willing to continue in there rebellion. They aren't made to. They have only themselves to blame for it. If man had no choice man would have no genuine Love for God. Love is never forced. Salvation is forced if God just saves a man with out mans surrender. Our only choice is to surrender or not we decide that, just as the Jews did during the first advent.
I’m puzzled why reformers fight so hard over God giving man the ability to resist Him. It’s so evident in the Bible. Pharaoh was one who did just that. Jonah was another both men paid for there rebellion one was a believer and the other refused unto death. In these two people, freewill could not be clearer. The difference between saved or not is rebellion.
MB

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

If it is completely due to the "desire" of God that we rebel and act only according to the nature that he intended for us to have then the inescapable conclusion is God intentionally created sin. I know that Luke and others will argue, "it is all for His Glory" but somehow I dont see sin and destruction as "glorifying" God. I rather see God's purposes as arising out of His Love for His creation. If this whole redemptive thing is simply a script that God has created for His glory, then it sure seems to me that it makes God a lot smaller than Luke and the others feel about my perspective of God.

 

[Luke2427]

Some men choose to give up or surrender to God because of there fear. Others will fight to the death and stay in there rebellion. The reason is no two men allows fear to have the same influence. The same is true on any battle field. The saving of men is a battle not between God and evil but between men and evil. God created an escape and that is surrender. We have to give up which is stopping our own rebellion. This isn't doing something to be saved because man cannot boast about giving up. Which in effect, is doing nothing to prevent Salvation any longer. If we do not stop Salvation we will be saved because, of our willingness not to fight it any longer.
Your position ( as I understand it) that God will save who He wants is true only in the light that man surrenders to Him, Rom. 10:1-4. However some men are willing to continue in there rebellion. They aren't made to. They have only themselves to blame for it. If man had no choice man would have no genuine Love for God. Love is never forced. Salvation is forced if God just saves a man with out mans surrender. Our only choice is to surrender or not we decide that, just as the Jews did during the first advent.
I’m puzzled why reformers fight so hard over God giving man the ability to resist Him. It’s so evident in the Bible. Pharaoh was one who did just that. Jonah was another both men paid for there rebellion one was a believer and the other refused unto death. In these two people, freewill could not be clearer. The difference between saved or not is rebellion.

MB

What you guys are missing is that there are reasons for everything. If fear causes one to come and the other is not susceptible to the same fear then one has an advantage over the other- he has a more tender heart.

Advantage. It is the only explanation for why some come and others do not in the free will system.

Why do some rebel and others submit? Why are some tender to the Gospel and others hard to it?

What are the reasons for these things?

You might say, "I don't know why people are different" and that is fine because neither do I.

But refusing to acknowledge that there is some REASON why some come and others do not is stubborn blindness, IMO.

 

[psalms109:31]

Hope

I called both my kids the other night, intending to give both of them some dessert. I called both their names, and they both answered; but when I said, "come here," only one came.

What advantage did that one have over the other, that the other kid didn't come when called?

God didn't call us without knowing what we are going to get.

He called us to believe(trust) in His Son and be saved or not and be condemned.

 

[Luke2427]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

If it is completely due to the "desire" of God that we rebel and act only according to the nature that he intended for us to have then the inescapable conclusion is God intentionally created sin. I know that Luke and others will argue, "it is all for His Glory" but somehow I dont see sin and destruction as "glorifying" God. I rather see God's purposes as arising out of His Love for His creation. If this whole redemptive thing is simply a script that God has created for His glory, then it sure seems to me that it makes God a lot smaller than Luke and the others feel about my perspective of God.

Did God fumble the ball when sin entered the world?

God didn't intend for it and could not stop it so he was reduced to cleaning it up?

Did God want men to have a free will that badly that he knowing it would lead billions and billions into hell still made it anyway??

How is your God any more loving than mine?

I have explained this to you and not received a response.

Without sin there can be no Calvary- no Lamb slain from the foundation of the world who receives the praises of a multitude which no man can number throughout the endless ages of eternity.

The destruction caused by sin is an infinitely small price to pay that Christ might receive such honor.

 

[quantumfaith]

Did God fumble the ball when sin entered the world?

God didn't intend for it and could not stop it so he was reduced to cleaning it up?

Did God want men to have a free will that badly that he knowing it would lead billions and billions into hell still made it anyway??

How is your God any more loving than mine?

I have explained this to you and not received a response.

Without sin there can be no Calvary- no Lamb slain from the foundation of the world who receives the praises of a multitude which no man can number throughout the endless ages of eternity.

The destruction caused by sin is an infinitely small price to pay that Christ might receive such honor.

1. No God did not fumble the ball.
2. God knew and knows all, that does mean he willfully intentioned it.

I will say you are quite skilled in turning things around, and attempting to imply things I have not said.

3. Our earlier discussions NEVER centered around "whose god" was more loving, it was centered around what you and I felt was God's motivation for creating. (Please dont subtley make implications which attempt to denigrate your debating/discussing partner)

Let me end, for the moment by saying, we have all heard it said "He is the reason for the season."

Well, "I am the reason for the season"........."You are the reason for the season."

 

[Luke2427]

1. No God did not fumble the ball.
2. God knew and knows all, that does mean he willfully intentioned it.

I will say you are quite skilled in turning things around, and attempting to imply things I have not said.

3. Our earlier discussions NEVER centered around "whose god" was more loving, it was centered around what you and I felt was God's motivation for creating. (Please dont subtley make implications which attempt to denigrate your debating/discussing partner)

Let me end, for the moment by saying, we have all heard it said "He is the reason for the season."

Well, "I am the reason for the season"........."You are the reason for the season."

You didn't answer this question:

Did God want men to have a free will that badly that he knowing it would lead billions and billions into hell still made it anyway??