Are All Men Drawn Equally?

[webdog]

God didn't call us without knowing what we are going to get.

He called us to believe(trust) in His Son and be saved or not and be condemned.

...but in calling us He also told us what we were going to get, and what we would lose out on if we didn't.

 

[Luke2427]

Let me end, for the moment by saying, we have all heard it said "He is the reason for the season."

Well, "I am the reason for the season"........."You are the reason for the season."

I think, respectfully, that that is a horrible remark that comes from an unfortunate man centered theology.

I am not the reason he came and YOU are not the reason he came.

He came to do the will of him that sent him.

To seek and to save THAT which was lost; not THOSE who are lost.

To please his father.

Now he does love you and I and the whole world- but this thing is not about you and me. It is about HIM.

He doesn't even save you FOR you. He does it FOR Christ's glory.

Christ is the reason for the season.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

Why is there such opposition to the notion that man is saved simply b/c God chose him to be saved? If man is saved through God’s foreknowledge of that man 1 day having faith---does the 1 who God knew 1 day would not have faith—really have the opportunity to be saved when he hears the gospel? If election is before the foundation of the world (whether its based on God’s sovereign choice or His foreknowledge)—can the 1 who did not make this elect group have a genuine opportunity for salvation? Who so ever shall come—but in the end-- it is only the elect who come.
Eph 1:4-5
“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will”

Acts 13:48-
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

I could go on with 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:29-30, 1 Pet 1:2, ect.
The question becomes—can someone who does not fit the description of these verses respond in the affirmative to the gospel call? Are they going to respond to God’s calling, even though before time began (or before He created them) God knew they wouldn’t?

 

[quantumfaith]

You didn't answer this question:

God allowed and allows man to reject his grace and his offer of salvation.

 

[webdog]

I think, respectfully, that that is a horrible remark that comes from an unfortunate man centered theology.

I am not the reason he came and YOU are not the reason he came.

He came to do the will of him that sent him.

To seek and to save THAT which was lost.

To please his father.

Now he does love you and I and the whole world- but this thing is not about you and me. It is about HIM.

He doesn't even save you FOR you. He does it FOR Christ's glory.

Christ is the reason for the season.

He came to do the will of him that sent him...and that is to die for sinners.
It's not one or the other. The season is to celebrate His birth AND His death, burial and resurrection for mankind. Both is the correct answer and nothing "man centered" about it. Is that really necessary?

 

[webdog]

Why is there such opposition to the notion that man is saved simply b/c God chose him to be saved? If man is saved through God’s foreknowledge of that man 1 day having faith---does the 1 who God knew 1 day would not have faith—really have the opportunity to be saved when he hears the gospel? If election is before the foundation of the world (whether its based on God’s sovereign choice or His foreknowledge)—can the 1 who did not make this elect group have a genuine opportunity for salvation? Who so ever shall come—but in the end-- it is only the elect who come.
Eph 1:4-5
“even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will”

Acts 13:48-
“And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.”

I could go on with 2 Tim 1:9, Rom 8:29-30, 1 Pet 1:2, ect.
The question becomes—can someone who does not fit the description of these verses respond in the affirmative to the gospel call? Are they going to respond to God’s calling, even though before time began (or before He created them) God knew they wouldn’t?

To your bolded statement...the opposition is due to the fact God has outlined in His Word who and how one is saved and who He chooses.

The reformed model is purely linear, but God's model is much greater than that. That is why I disagree with the reformed understanding (God chooses who will be saved) and the Arminian understanding (God looks through the corridors of time to see who will be saved). Both are lacking.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

To your bolded statement...the opposition is due to the fact God has outlined in His Word who and how one is saved and who He chooses.

The reformed model is purely linear, but God's model is much greater than that. That is why I disagree with the reformed understanding (God chooses who will be saved) and the Arminian understanding (God looks through the corridors of time to see who will be saved). Both are lacking.

Very good answer-the idea that who so ever will come but in the end its only the elect who come—seems like a human paradox—but in reality it’s a biblical (spiritual) truth—one I’m trying to work out, without fixating on one particular soteriological theory.

 

[Luke2427]

God allowed and allows man to reject his grace and his offer of salvation.

See you say free will is such a grand thing that it warrants God creating a world where many billions will perish in hell.

I say God's GLORY is that grand. God is able to display his grace and mercy and holiness and wrath because of the fall.

It is about what we value most I think that separates our systems. And I think that the Bible teaches that God's glory and the display of it to the fullest including grace and mercy is the purpose for the whole universe's existence.

You must say that the purpose for the whole universe's existence is so that God will have some who freely choose to love him.

Does God NEED the love of fallen mortals?

Does he not get all the love that he "needs" within the Trinity?

 

[Luke2427]

He came to do the will of him that sent him...and that is to die for sinners.

Were sinners that valuable that they warranted such a sacrifice?

If not, WHY did Christ die for them?

I think the reason is clear- that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us.

THAT is why he died. Not primarily FOR us but for his glory.

It's not one or the other. The season is to celebrate His birth AND His death, burial and resurrection for mankind. Both is the correct answer and nothing "man centered" about it. Is that really necessary?

If saying "I am the reason for the season" is not man centered- there is no such THING as man centered.

 

[webdog]

Were sinners that valuable that they warranted such a sacrifice?

If not, WHY did Christ die for them?

I think the reason is clear- that in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us.

THAT is why he died. Not primarily FOR us but for his glory.




If saying "I am the reason for the season" is not man centered- there is no such THING as man centered.

Well, if you want to diminish the value of those made in His image, that He felt were worthy to be sacrificed for...that's on you. He said it. I believe it.

Again, it's a matter of perspective. Becoming a sacrifice merely for "glory" is lacking.

 

[webdog]

Very good answer-the idea that who so ever will come but in the end its only the elect who come—seems like a human paradox—but in reality it’s a biblical (spiritual) truth—one I’m trying to work out, without fixating on one particular soteriological theory.

I believe that is the way it should be approached. God is omnipresent, and by extension omni and a-temporal. He exists in all point of time at the same time, something the finite mind cannot fathom. Any and all usage of linear terms are for the benefit of linear beings...us. In truth, there is no pre or "fore" (time phrases) before the creation of time, yet those are phrases used to give us a glimpse of God awesomeness.

As for the "elect", I believe when used in Scripture it is referring to true Israel....but that's a whole topic in itself

 

[Luke2427]

Well, if you want to diminish the value of those made in His image, that He felt were worthy to be sacrificed for...that's on you. He said it. I believe it.

Again, it's a matter of perspective. Becoming a sacrifice merely for "glory" is lacking.

Did you honestly say that we were WORTHY of the sacrifice of the Son of God?????

This illustrates EXACTLY the rift between Calvinists and "non-reformed" people.

And then you literally said that God's GLORY was NOT a sufficient purpose for Calvary??

That is really amazing to me. And if you think that- you might be beyond reaching in this matter.

However, about a decade ago, some friends of mine in college had to read Piper's book "Let the NAtions Be Glad" and they came to me saying the same things I am saying to you and I said then- "I don't think God is SELF-CENTERED! LOVE was his motive NOT SELF GLORY!!!"

And here I am- so maybe one day you'll see the truth. I sure hope so.

This thing ain't about you and me- it's about CHRIST.

Every flower, every star, the 125 billion galaxies of the universe- it's all about HIM.

Until you get that- you won't understand.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

I believe that is the way it should be approached. God is omnipresent, and by extension omni and a-temporal. He exists in all point of time at the same time, something the finite mind cannot fathom. Any and all usage of linear terms are for the benefit of linear beings...us. In truth, there is no pre or "fore" (time phrases) before the creation of time, yet those are phrases used to give us a glimpse of God awesomeness.

As for the "elect", I believe when used in Scripture it is referring to true Israel....but that's a whole topic in itself

I completely agree that God is atemperal (or is not limited to time)—I think 2 Pet 3:8 & Ps 90:1-6 prove this point. But I personally don’t think this means that God doesn’t act in time or his actions cannot be classified as taking place in time. (ex the incarnation took place in time). In Eph 1:4 the phrase “before the foundation of the world” is pro kataboles kosmou—the normal meaning of “pro” is temporal & indicating some kind of sequential order. Ex: Jn 17:24—Jesus states that God loved him b4 the foundation of the world. So the Trinity had a relationship before the world was created (albeit eternal –it was a relationship that preceded the creation process—thus in some way related to time). This same phrase is used in Eph 1:4—that before the foundation of the world we were chosen in him. So before the world is created there is a choosing process (regardless of what this choosing is based on). If God is omniscient (which He clearly is) then He will know who will be saved before they are created. Even if middle knowledge is allowed into this omniscience—unless open theism is advocated (the idea that God does not know the future b/c it has not happened yet)—we are left with God knowing who will respond to the gospel call before that individual has had the opportunity to respond to this call. Eph 1:4-5 is clearly not limited to Israel—so can the one who is not chosen really respond to God’s salvation call?

 

[quantumfaith]

Did you honestly say that we were WORTHY of the sacrifice of the Son of God?????

This illustrates EXACTLY the rift between Calvinists and "non-reformed" people.

And then you literally said that God's GLORY was NOT a sufficient purpose for Calvary??

That is really amazing to me. And if you think that- you might be beyond reaching in this matter.

However, about a decade ago, some friends of mine in college had to read Piper's book "Let the NAtions Be Glad" and they came to me saying the same things I am saying to you and I said then- "I don't think God is SELF-CENTERED! LOVE was his motive NOT SELF GLORY!!!"

And here I am- so maybe one day you'll see the truth. I sure hope so.

This thing ain't about you and me- it's about CHRIST.

Every flower, every star, the 125 billion galaxies of the universe- it's all about HIM.

Until you get that- you won't understand.

Luke, I woul really appreciate it if you would refrain from attempting to imply, assert or claim, that those of us who hold to a different theology than you think otherwise. It simply is not so, so please dont try to portray it as such.

 

[quantumfaith]

Did you honestly say that we were WORTHY of the sacrifice of the Son of God?????
This illustrates EXACTLY the rift between Calvinists and "non-reformed" people.

And then you literally said that God's GLORY was NOT a sufficient purpose for Calvary??

That is really amazing to me. And if you think that- you might be beyond reaching in this matter.

However, about a decade ago, some friends of mine in college had to read Piper's book "Let the NAtions Be Glad" and they came to me saying the same things I am saying to you and I said then- "I don't think God is SELF-CENTERED! LOVE was his motive NOT SELF GLORY!!!"

And here I am- so maybe one day you'll see the truth. I sure hope so.

This thing ain't about you and me- it's about CHRIST.

Every flower, every star, the 125 billion galaxies of the universe- it's all about HIM.

Until you get that- you won't understand.

Any worth we have in God's eyes is because God has it. And yes, I do think the totality of God's revelation in fact demonstrates that He has that magnificent love for us. Does God Need my love? No. Does God Need any glory I might bring to him. No again.

God IS Love,,to paraphrase you, until you get that, you won't understand.

 

[Luke2427]

[/I][/B]

Luke, I woul really appreciate it if you would refrain from attempting to imply, assert or claim, that those of us who hold to a different theology than you think otherwise. It simply is not so, so please dont try to portray it as such.

It is what Webdog SAID quantum.

He literally SAID that we were worthy of Christ's sacrifice.

He did it all for us.

That's madness, IMO. But I used to be stricken with the same lunacy.

 

[Luke2427]

Any worth we have in God's eyes is because God has it. And yes, I do think the totality of God's revelation in fact demonstrates that He has that magnificent love for us. Does God Need my love? No. Does God Need any glory I might bring to him. No again.

God IS Love,,to paraphrase you, until you get that, you won't understand.

God CANNOT DISPLAY his love to the fullest without SIN- period.

He does NEED sin if he wants to DISPLAY his GRACE and MERCY- period.

God IS Love,,to paraphrase you, until you get that, you won't understand.

God is also a consuming fire. God is a lot of things- so what??

Until you understand a lot of things you are not going to get it, apparently- but primarily that God's primary motive is to fulfill the highest and noblest of purposes in the universe- his glory.

So long as you think his PRIMARY motive is LOVE for man- you will never understand the Bible.

 

[preacher4truth]

It is what Webdog SAID quantum.

He literally SAID that we were worthy of Christ's sacrifice.

He did it all for us.

That's madness, IMO. But I used to be stricken with the same lunacy.

Do you have that quote where he said we are worthy of that?

If that is the case, that is unscriptural. We were not worthy period.

 

[quantumfaith]

God CANNOT DISPLAY his love to the fullest without SIN- period.

He does NEED sin if he wants to DISPLAY his GRACE and MERCY- period.

Wow....for a rare occasion in my life, I am speechless.


God is also a consuming fire. God is a lot of things- so what??

Until you understand a lot of things you are not going to get it, apparently- but primarily that God's primary motive is to fulfill the highest and noblest of purposes in the universe- his glory.

So long as you think his PRIMARY motive is LOVE for man- you will never understand the Bible.

I understand the Bible just fine, much more to learn though, I hope I never stop learning about the riches and mysteries of God. Sounds like you have it all nailed down though. I am truly happy for you. I would recommend though as you go through your life and ministry, be careful to know any flock to where you may be led, might ought to share your reformed theological views, otherwise you will be headed for potential problems and difficulties that may hurt you and the ones you seek to minister to.

 

[quantumfaith]

Do you have that quote where he said we are worthy of that?

If that is the case, that is unscriptural. We were not worthy period.

Preacher, if possible, please go back and read. I did not say that. I know that I am totally unworthy of God's grace, love and mercy. However, I do absolutely believe that God's revelation teaches His absolute love for His creation and in particular Man.