Will- Is there not a cause?

[Jarthur001]

Everything has a cause though, right?

So, what is the cause of Satan and Adam being the source of evil?

God does not force evil he allows it. When God hinders man, as he did with Abimelech and Balak, from sinnin, it is Gods grace,. Other wise man would sin.

As in Adam, God knew Adam would sin, he not only know it, he counted on it. He did not stop it, when it is clear he had the power to stop it.

So...God made evil???
No...not really. Evil is a path away from Gods will. If he MADE evil, it would be his will.
Adams lust to have his WILL over Gods will, sent Adam down that path, away from God into sin.

Again, it is mans WILL that is the problem.

Unless God hinders man from sinner, he will sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

"The Lion That Wouldn’t Eat Meat," by David Catchpoole, Creation ex nihilo 22(2):22–23 March 2000.

How did I know this would be posted??? Maybe because I have seen this before.



Maybe you have not ran this through the mill before.

Ok...think about this. The fact that this lion PROVES a lion can live off of grass, and....that this lion is singled out as "strange"....what does that tell you????





I think it proves my point.

 

[Steven2006]

There is no question from you in post #91.

Sorry I didn't make it clear. I'll try again.

I just don't understand. You used the analogy of you choosing the unpopular choice of calf livers to support the view that we really don't have a free will when making choices, but are instead bound to choose certain things.

"Was your will to choose completely free with no inclinations to the one or the other? Absolutely not. If you are like most folks I know your will was bound to choose the burger."

When I asked the question, but replaced a persons s*xual preference for calf livers or burgers you said they were "accountable" because :

"I do believe in "free will" so long as free will is defined properly. It is the mind choosing; it is doing what you WANT"

Can you explain this contradiction?

 

[Winman]

Ahhhh... and here comes the rape thing.

Always the rape thing.

You not liking it doesn't make it not true.

God is the ultimate cause of all things.

He could have designed the universe in such a way that no one was ever raped but he didn't.

I disagree with this. The creation can never be equal to the creator. You and other Calvinists often argue that God can do whatever he wants, but the scriptures prove that false.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

You may not like this, but we have some abilities that God does not have. God cannot sin, we can. God cannot lie, we can.

And God cannot create anything absolutely perfect, for then it would be equal to himself. God cannot create himself, anything he would create must necessarily be inferior to him.

 

[moral necessity]

One idea that may help regarding evil, is that evil is not a positive entity like goodness is. Rather, it is the absence of good. God is the only source of good, and the withdrawal of his presence and influence results in corruption and evil. Darkness is the absence of light. Black is the absence of color. So, evil is not created by God, but is rather the by-product of the removal of himself. This idea helps when trying to understand how Satan came about, as well as the fall of Adam. Created things are mutable, (unlike God who is immutable), and this shows itself whenever God withdraws.

To pit Satan against God, or evil against good, as if they were two separate and positive forces, leads to there being two gods, one a little bigger than the other. For, where would this evil force come from? For, whatever lies outside of being created by God, must have existed on it's own, and is therefore a god itself.

 

[Jarthur001]

I disagree with this. The creation can never be equal to the creator. You and other Calvinists often argue that God can do whatever he wants, but the scriptures prove that false.

See now, this is what you have when you hold to free will. God can not all things. How someone can even say such things, is beyond me.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

If you are using this verse to prove you point, you failed. He cannot lie, because all that he says is truth. In other words, even if it does not add up to us, and even if it may seem like a lie, it really is our lack of understanding.

Now if you take this verse with others...

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up,

What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,



For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.



But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Please see this link...

http://triablogue.blogspot.com/2007/09/hands-off-theodicy.html

 

[Winman]

See now, this is what you have when you hold to free will. God can not all things. How someone can even say such things, is beyond me.

Can God lie?

If you are using this verse to prove you point, you failed. He cannot lie, because all that he says is truth. In other words, even if it does not add up to us, and even if it may seem like a lie, it really is our lack of understanding.

This statement of yours is so messed up that I don't know what to say. Anybody who can believe this has pretty much lost the ability to reason properly. There is no way to hold a meaningful discussion with someone who reasons like this. Words obviously have no real meaning to you. How can you reason with someone who believes the truth can be a lie at the same time?

If what you believe is true (which thankfully is impossible), then all of scripture would be meaningless.

 

[Havensdad]

Can God lie?

He cannot, because He will not, not because He is incapable. His will is free, and not in bondage, and therefore it is impossible for Him to choose to lie.

Only those in bondage to sin can lie. A perfectly free being cannot, because it is not in His nature.

This statement of yours is so messed up that I don't know what to say. Anybody who can believe this has pretty much lost the ability to reason properly. There is no way to hold a meaningful discussion with someone who reasons like this. Words obviously have no real meaning to you. How can you reason with someone who believes the truth can be a lie at the same time?

If what you believe is true (which thankfully is impossible), then all of scripture would be meaningless.

Actually, what he is saying is correct. If God's word is authoritative. If He spoke a lie, it would BECOME truth. He spoke "Earth" when there was none, and you know what happened? (hint: read Genesis 1).

As far as the rape thing brought up earlier...I have heard accounts of women who were nearly raped, and then some sort of occurrence happened that prevented it. They then say "Thank God that "X" happened." Were they wrong to thank God for preventing it? Was it not Him?

 

[Amy.G]

He cannot, because He will not, not because He is incapable. His will is free, and not in bondage, and therefore it is impossible for Him to choose to lie.

Only those in bondage to sin can lie. A perfectly free being cannot, because it is not in His nature.

Was Adam in bondage when he sinned?

 

[Amy.G]

Ok...think about this. The fact that this lion PROVES a lion can live off of grass, and....that this lion is singled out as "strange"....what does that tell you????

I tells me that unregenerate man can choose to receive Christ's gift of salvation even though he has a nature to sin.

 

[Winman]

He cannot, because He will not, not because He is incapable. His will is free, and not in bondage, and therefore it is impossible for Him to choose to lie.

Well my Bible says God cannot lie, it does not say will not.

Actually, what he is saying is correct. If God's word is authoritative. If He spoke a lie, it would BECOME truth. He spoke "Earth" when there was none, and you know what happened? (hint: read Genesis 1).

Now you are messed up too. What you are doing is denying absolute truth exists. We know that 2 plus 2 equals 4, and that is the only truthful answer to this question.

Of course, with the education system we have today, there are probably lots of folks that think 2 plus 2 could equal any number, and a teacher that would tell them it's perfectly acceptable to believe that. :laugh:

As far as the rape thing brought up earlier...I have heard accounts of women who were nearly raped, and then some sort of occurrence happened that prevented it. They then say "Thank God that "X" happened." Were they wrong to thank God for preventing it? Was it not Him?

Just because God intervenes and saves a woman from being raped does not mean he caused the rapist to attack her. You might be walking down the street and see a fellow attack a girl. You run up, pull the guy off and hold him down till the police arrive. Does that mean you caused the rapist to attack her?

 

[Benjamin]

God is Truth. The aseity of His Nature is unchanging. He can not have the truth of 2+2=4 and then change that truth to be 2+2=5. To say truth can "become" something through a lie is fallacy. It is like saying God can make a rock so big that even He can not lift it.

Edit to say: I see winman here can add too. ha

 

[Jarthur001]

Can God lie?

.

Do you understand what Gods decree is? If he says it, it will come to pass. You can count on it.

This is the meaning when it says God cannot lie. Its not placing limits on God, it is saying all that he says is true, because he has decreed it.

Understand?

 

[Jarthur001]

God is Truth. The aseity of His Nature is unchanging. He can not have the truth of 2+2=4 and then change that truth to be 2+2=5. To say truth can "become" something through a lie is fallacy. It is like saying God can make a rock so big that even He can not lift it.

I agree. It is a statement of Gods truth.

 

[Jarthur001]

Well my Bible says God cannot lie, it does not say will not.



Now you are messed up too. What you are doing is denying absolute truth exists. We know that 2 plus 2 equals 4, and that is the only truthful answer to this question.

Of course, with the education system we have today, there are probably lots of folks that think 2 plus 2 could equal any number, and a teacher that would tell them it's perfectly acceptable to believe that. :laugh:




Just because God intervenes and saves a woman from being raped does not mean he caused the rapist to attack her. You might be walking down the street and see a fellow attack a girl. You run up, pull the guy off and hold him down till the police arrive. Does that mean you caused the rapist to attack her?

Please try to take a few classes in theology. Please. It will help you.

 

[Havensdad]

Was Adam in bondage when he sinned?

Yes. The bondage came from the serpents lying tongue.

 

[Amy.G]

Of course, with the education system we have today, there are probably lots of folks that think 2 plus 2 could equal any number, and a teacher that would tell them it's perfectly acceptable to believe that.

I thought 2+2=22.

But that's because:

1. I have no seminary training

2. I'm a woman

3. I'm not a Calvinist

:laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Yes. The bondage came from the serpents lying tongue.

Adam was in bondage when the serpent was speaking lies?

 

[Winman]

God is Truth. The aseity of His Nature is unchanging. He can not have the truth of 2+2=4 and then change that truth to be 2+2=5. To say truth can "become" something through a lie is fallacy. It is like saying God can make a rock so big that even He can not lift it.

Exactly. God cannot do evil whatsoever because he is HOLY.

He did not create Satan evil, Satan was perfect in the day he was created. But he had a free will like us and chose to sin.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

We know this is Satan, because he was the only person other than God, Adam, and Eve in the garden. God did not create him evil, just as he did not create Adam and Eve evil. But he did give them a free will that enabled them to do evil of their own choice.

God creating creatures that can do evil of a truly free will does not make God evil. I have used the example of our cars. The manufacturers of our cars design them so they are able to exceed posted speed limits. This is necessary that the car can "cruise" at higher speed limits without damage to the engine. You do not want to drive a car at full throttle. So, to cruise at 65 MPH, you necessarily have to design an engine that can drive much faster.

And likewise, we could not truly love God unless we have a truly free will. But this free will also gives us the ability to sin.

When we drive we are responsible for our speed (unless it's a Toyota :laugh. We can drive the posted limit if we choose to do so. If we choose to speed we can get a ticket and become solely responsible.

 

[Havensdad]

Well my Bible says God cannot lie, it does not say will not.

Will not and cannot are often synonymous. Are you saying God lacks the physical POWER to lie? Otherwise, you have to say it is a moral inability, which is a "will not."

Now you are messed up too. What you are doing is denying absolute truth exists. We know that 2 plus 2 equals 4, and that is the only truthful answer to this question.

WHAT?! Brother, I am seriously wondering about your theological understanding at this point. 2 plus 2 equals 4, only because God has deemed it thus. He could easily have set up physical laws in the universe, where 2 plus 2 equals 5.

Just because God intervenes and saves a woman from being raped does not mean he caused the rapist to attack her. You might be walking down the street and see a fellow attack a girl. You run up, pull the guy off and hold him down till the police arrive. Does that mean you caused the rapist to attack her?

O.K., so my question to you is, if it is not God's will, then why does God intervene in one instance, but not the other? Did God simply not love the other woman enough to stop it?