Will- Is there not a cause?

[Winman]

Please try to take a few classes in theology. Please. It will help you.

Well, tell me where you went first. I definitely want to avoid that school.

 

[Benjamin]

I agree. It is a statement of Gods truth.

Always glad to see a Calvinist agree about God's Nature being unchanging and as Truth. Maybe you'd agree that God's Nature is also Love? And after He created the world in His Love He said it was "very good" ...and now I will asume you believe He did not lie about this either. There is hope for you yet. :thumbs:

 

[Havensdad]

Adam was in bondage when the serpent was speaking lies?

First, Adam was already in a degree of bondage. He was bound to the earth (and could not fly). He was limited in his understanding (he did not know all things).

This second (that he did not know all things), created a deficiency through which the Serpent was able to place Adam under bondage.

Sin always comes from bondage, and this bondage is a result of deficiency. God lacks any such deficiency, and thus has a completely free will. Man's will, however, is NOT free, and thus he can sin.

 

[Winman]

Will not and cannot are often synonymous. Are you saying God lacks the physical POWER to lie? Otherwise, you have to say it is a moral inability, which is a "will not."

Will not and cannot are not synonyms. I would love to be able to dunk a basketball. I want to do it, that is my will. But I cannot do it, and believe me, I've tried.

And yes, I am saying God does not have the ability to lie. The scriptures say he cannot lie, not will not.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

 

[Havensdad]

Will not and cannot are not synonyms. I would love to be able to dunk a basketball. I want to do it, that is my will. But I cannot do it, and believe me, I've tried.

And yes, I am saying God does not have the ability to lie. The scriptures say he cannot lie, not will not.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

But people also say things like "I could NEVER hurt my child!" That is an inability, but not a matter of power, but will.

 

[preacher4truth]

Will not and cannot are not synonyms. I would love to be able to dunk a basketball. I want to do it, that is my will. But I cannot do it, and believe me, I've tried.

And yes, I am saying God does not have the ability to lie. The scriptures say he cannot lie, not will not.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

It (cannot) means that He is Truth, and disposed to speak truth, veracious. It's a positive, not a negative. You should look up the word in a dictionary; veracious. This Greek word is used only here in the NT.

 

[Winman]

First, Adam was already in a degree of bondage. He was bound to the earth (and could not fly). He was limited in his understanding (he did not know all things).

This second (that he did not know all things), created a deficiency through which the Serpent was able to place Adam under bondage.

Sin always comes from bondage, and this bondage is a result of deficiency. God lacks any such deficiency, and thus has a completely free will. Man's will, however, is NOT free, and thus he can sin.

I am always amazed at Calvinists and how they often say the exact opposite of what the scriptures say. You say sin always comes from bondage, but the scriptures say the exact opposite.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Did Jesus say whoever is the servant of sin (in bondage to sin) sins? No, he said the exact opposite, he said whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

Paul said the same.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Did Paul say we must yield to sin because we are servants to sin? No, he said the opposite, he said that to whoever we yield ourselves to obey, his servants we become.

It is said in Proverbs.

Pro 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

It is our sins that causes us to be in bondage, not the other way around. You aren't born a heroin addict (unless your mother was an addict during her pregnancy with you), you are not born in bondage to heroin. No, it is after you start taking heroin that you become a slave to it. The same with cigarettes, nobody is born with a cigarette in their mouth, you only become a slave to cigarettes after you willingly choose to start smoking.

Man, you guys believe everything in exact reverse.

 

[Winman]

But people also say things like "I could NEVER hurt my child!" That is an inability, but not a matter of power, but will.

Yes, but this was not a person speaking, it was Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Winman]

It (cannot) means that He is Truth, and disposed to speak truth, veracious. It's a positive, not a negative. You should look up the word in a dictionary; veracious. This Greek word is used only here in the NT.

I'm sorry, but this doctrine you hold is serious error. You believe God can do whatever he wants, and whatever he does is right. You believe God can tell a lie, and that alone makes it truth.

Well, if God can tell a lie and that makes it the truth, then why can't we tell a lie and it be the truth?

I mean, in your system there is no right or wrong really. It would also make God the biggest hypocrite ever, he can say whatever he wants and it is considered truth. In your system God can say 2 plus 2 equals 5 and it is the truth, but if we say 2 plus 2 equals 5 we are a liar and must be punished for eternity for this sin.

If God could say 2 plus 2 equals 5 and it is the truth, he could also answer 6, or 7, or any number whatsoever. If this were true, there would be no such thing as truth.

I have never met anyone in my life who believes like this. It defies all logic and common sense. All I can say is that your doctrine is seriously messed up.

 

[jbh28]

Will not and cannot are not synonyms. I would love to be able to dunk a basketball. I want to do it, that is my will. But I cannot do it, and believe me, I've tried.

He said "often" synonymous not always. They can be used synonymously.

And yes, I am saying God does not have the ability to lie. The scriptures say he cannot lie, not will not.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

God's nature says he cannot lie. He could if he wanted to. Here is where they are being used synonymously. Of course this doesn't mean the EVERY time they are synonyms, but in this case they are.

I am always amazed at Calvinists and how they often say the exact opposite of what the scriptures say. You say sin always comes from bondage, but the scriptures say the exact opposite.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Did Jesus say whoever is the servant of sin (in bondage to sin) sins? No, he said the exact opposite, he said whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin.

1+2=3 2+1=3 It's the same thing. All that sin are a servant of sin. It is in no way the opposite of anything.

Paul said the same.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Did Paul say we must yield to sin because we are servants to sin? No, he said the opposite, he said that to whoever we yield ourselves to obey, his servants we become.

It is said in Proverbs.

Pro 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

It is our sins that causes us to be in bondage, not the other way around. You aren't born a heroin addict (unless your mother was an addict during her pregnancy with you), you are not born in bondage to heroin. No, it is after you start taking heroin that you become a slave to it. The same with cigarettes, nobody is born with a cigarette in their mouth, you only become a slave to cigarettes after you willingly choose to start smoking.

Man, you guys believe everything in exact reverse.

Nice straw man, but no. Please show me a verse that says we are not in bondage till AFTER we sin.

 

[jbh28]

But people also say things like "I could NEVER hurt my child!" That is an inability, but not a matter of power, but will.

excellent point

 

[preacher4truth]

I'm sorry, but this doctrine you hold is serious error. You believe God can do whatever he wants, and whatever he does is right. You believe God can tell a lie, and that alone makes it truth.

Well, if God can tell a lie and that makes it the truth, then why can't we tell a lie and it be the truth?

I mean, in your system there is no right or wrong really. It would also make God the biggest hypocrite ever, he can say whatever he wants and it is considered truth. In your system God can say 2 plus 2 equals 5 and it is the truth, but if we say 2 plus 2 equals 5 we are a liar and must be punished for eternity for this sin.

If God could say 2 plus 2 equals 5 and it is the truth, he could also answer 6, or 7, or any number whatsoever. If this were true, there would be no such thing as truth.

I have never met anyone in my life who believes like this. It defies all logic and common sense. All I can say is that your doctrine is seriously messed up.

I'm not saying what you are saying I'm saying. :wavey:

Nice try though to assume what you will, and then lay false charges upon me. :thumbs:

I'm simply giving the definition. But your knowledge is lacking, so you are not grasping it.

In my system there is no right or wrong? Uh...lol. There you go again with "my system."

Way off track again. As a matter of fact, my understanding of and stance on holiness is probably a lot more than you'll realize. Also, I don't take holiness to the extreme view, as some on here who allude to monasticism when I mention the NT imperatives to live holy. To me, that is just a cop-out to avoid it.

I never mentioned any of the drivel you run off into in your assumptions of me. That is all from you. But I bid blessings you to you.



What is the Gospel, Winman?

 

[Winman]

He said "often" synonymous not always. They can be used synonymously.

In some cases this might be true. That does not mean you can be dogmatic about it. It says "cannot" not "will not".

God's nature says he cannot lie. He could if he wanted to. Here is where they are being used synonymously. Of course this doesn't mean the EVERY time they are synonyms, but in this case they are.

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe God cannot lie.

1+2=3 2+1=3 It's the same thing. All that sin are a servant of sin. It is in no way the opposite of anything.

How about this, 5 minus 3 equals 2. Does 3 minus 5 equal 2?

Nice straw man, but no. Please show me a verse that says we are not in bondage till AFTER we sin.

I showed you verses that were plain and clear, you simply refuse to hear them. I gave easily understood examples, such as smoking. Nobody is born a cigarette addict, nobody is born addicted to gambling. You must start smoking and start gambling to become addicted to them.

 

[jbh28]

In some cases this might be true. That does not mean you can be dogmatic about it. It says "cannot" not "will not".

True. You can't be dogmatic either way when it could mean either.

We will have to agree to disagree. I believe God cannot lie.

I do too. It's not his power that cannot lie, but his nature that cannot lie. God has the power to lie, but it's not in his nature to lie. Therefore, he will never lie. It's both cannot and will not.

How about this, 5 minus 3 equals 2. Does 3 minus 5 equal 2?

no, the cumulative property only works with addition, not difference. That's different from the point I was making. It didn't matter which side it had it on. It wasn't making an argument but a statement.

I showed you verses that were plain and clear, you simply refuse to hear them. I gave easily understood examples, such as smoking. Nobody is born a cigarette addict, nobody is born addicted to gambling. You must start smoking and start gambling to become addicted to them.

Of course not! (with the exception of drugs that you gave) We all choose to sin. What we are all born with is a nature. God has a nature. It's divine. It's perfect. We have a nature. It's sinful. It wasn't our own way. It is deceitful. We sin because it is in our nature to sin.

 

[quantumfaith]

First, Adam was already in a degree of bondage. He was bound to the earth (and could not fly). He was limited in his understanding (he did not know all things).

This second (that he did not know all things), created a deficiency through which the Serpent was able to place Adam under bondage.

Sin always comes from bondage, and this bondage is a result of deficiency. God lacks any such deficiency, and thus has a completely free will. Man's will, however, is NOT free, and thus he can sin.

I agree, and I bet Amy does too that mans will is limited to extent dictated by God. But Adam and Eve did have a choice.

Are you wanting to say that the whole garden thing was a "set up" by God. Entrapment perhaps?

 

[Jarthur001]

Always glad to see a Calvinist agree about God's Nature being unchanging and as Truth.

Do you know a Calvinist that would disagree?

Maybe you'd agree that God's Nature is also Love?

Indeed. But have you ever read the full passage in which this is said to be true?

And after He created the world in His Love He said it was "very good"

Right again.

...and now I will asume you believe He did not lie about this either.

This is very true. Why would you even think there is a problem?

There is hope for you yet. :thumbs:

Glad for me.

 

[Jarthur001]

Will not and cannot are not synonyms. I would love to be able to dunk a basketball. I want to do it, that is my will. But I cannot do it, and believe me, I've tried.

And yes, I am saying God does not have the ability to lie. The scriptures say he cannot lie, not will not.

Tit 1:2 In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;

again I ask do you not understand what a decree is under a King that has full power to do as he pleases?

 

[Jarthur001]

It (cannot) means that He is Truth, and disposed to speak truth, veracious. It's a positive, not a negative. You should look up the word in a dictionary; veracious. This Greek word is used only here in the NT.

:thumbs::thumbs: You got it.

 

[Winman]

Of course not! (with the exception of drugs that you gave) We all choose to sin. What we are all born with is a nature. God has a nature. It's divine. It's perfect. We have a nature. It's sinful. It wasn't our own way. It is deceitful. We sin because it is in our nature to sin.

I disagree. I sin all the time, but I do not have to sin, nobody is holding a gun to my head. I liked to party when I was a teenager, sure, I had the urge, but I didn't have to do it, and sometimes I refused to do it.

Tell the truth, have you absolutely ever been forced to sin? Could you have refused to sin and done the right thing in that situation?

Now, I believe this, once you start sinning, it becomes easier to do it the next time, and the next time you do it it becomes even easier to do it the third time and so on. This is what Proverbs 5:22 says.

Prov 5:22 His own iniquities shall take the wicked himself, and he shall be holden with the cords of his sins.

I remember reading a story about Paul MacCartney many years ago. He said that he started sniffing heroin, because he thought that way he wouldn't become addicted. He did a little more, and a little more, and then he realized he was addicted and having a real problem with it.

 

[Winman]

again I ask do you not understand what a decree is under a King that has full power to do as he pleases?

I disagree with you. God is HOLY, he cannot lie, God cannot sin.

Gotta go, long drive tomorrow. But I tell you, your conception of God is quite different from mine.