Can Unregenerate Man "Do" any Righteous Thing?

[Jarthur001]

I don't know, which one do you think you are? Is that the substance you can offer to this discussion?

If you are referring to me (which is what I assume since you posted right after me) where have I EVER said a reformed person serves another "god"?

42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here.I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. 43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires.

I would love to hear why you think this helps your view.

How many do you want?

Do you recall in the last month or two replying to the passage above to the poster...

I would expect you wouldn't "hear" it

 

[webdog]

I already clarified that I was using a play on words and did NOT question your salvation. You fail to "see" and "hear" the points I'm bringing due to the theological lens you have.

How conveniently you forgot to mention that fact.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

On to the OP. Has God not given unregenerate man the tools to seek Him? Of course He has. All of God's image bearers have creation, their conscience and the desire to be immortal placed within them from birth. They didn't place these in themselves, God did the reaching out to man first, even placing him in the exact location geographically and at the precise moment in time to "seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.".

Acts 17 alone refutes the notion an unregenerate man cannot seek God.

[/QUOTE]


If Acts 17:22-31 is teaching that unregenerate man can seek God then it is in direct contradiction with Romans 3:9-18.

Please provide scripture for God giving tools to unregenerate man to seek Him.

All of God's image bearers have creation, their conscience and the desire to be immortal placed within them from birth.

Again, Romans 3:9-18 directly refutes this theory of "seeking" God.

It is correct that man bears God's image, has conscience, and desires to be immortal, but nothing in scripture says that man will use these "tools" to seek God.

On the contrary man will use these "tools" to establish his own "way", hence so many false religions. (Romans 1:21-25)

21 Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn’t worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. As a result, their minds became dark and confused. 22 Claiming to be wise, they instead became utter fools. 23 And instead of worshiping the glorious, ever-living God, they worshiped idols made to look like mere people and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 So God abandoned them to do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. 25 They traded the truth about God for a lie. So they worshiped and served the things God created instead of the Creator himself, who is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

God did the reaching out to man first, even placing him in the exact location geographically and at the precise moment in time to "seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.".

As to this we are not far apart. Romans 17:26,27 teaches God "determined allotted periods and the boundaries of their dwelling place". For what purpose?
To seek Him and find Him.

This is a glorious truth God determines the exact time and place we, who are sought, seek Him.

True all that God does in the salvation of a man is not presented here in Acts 17, nor does it need to be.

Remember Paul is preaching to these people; therefore he gives an outward call to all listening (just as all Gospel preachers should) and leaves the inward or effectual call, all who hear, to God's Spirit.

Notice the response:
32Now when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked. But others said, "We will hear you again about this." 33So Paul went out from their midst. 34But some men joined him and believed, among whom also were Dionysius the Areopagite and a woman named Damaris and others with them.

Yes a person can seek God, but only after he is "born from above".

When we preach, how do we know who is elect?

This is not our concern!

When we preach we do so as if everyone under the sound of our voice is or will be called. This is what Paul was doing on Mars Hill. He was not teaching the notion of "prevenient grace".

 

[R. Lawson]

No. Man does not seek God (as per Romans 3). There needs to be a special act of grace -- if you're Arminian, it's prevenient grace. If you're Calvinist, it's irresistible grace. I suppose it comes down to which camp one subscribes to.:wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

There was no need, I showed your argument false from the first point. Neither money or any unliving object has the ability to do or be good or evil. To say so is nonsense.

No, a good gift means the giver performed a good work.

And while all are sinners, when God says "the wicked" he is not necessarily speaking of all sinners. When God says the "fool" hath said in his heart there is no God, this cannot be speaking of all sinners. Many unregenerate sinners believe there is a God.

They don't have to be able to DO good to BE good.

God said of His creation six times that it was GOOD.

Among those things he created that he called good were the fishes of the sea.

Not coincidentally when Jesus said that you know how to give good gifts to your children he was speaking of giving them fish instead of serpents.

The GIFT was good according to Jesus. It said NOTHING about the giver or the giving being good.

You molest Scripture to make it say what you want it to say.

Ask ANYBODY who knows ANYTHING about languages and they will tell you that good is an adjective that modifies the gift.

An elementary grasp of language will show you that.

My 7 year old can tell you what "good" modifies in that sentence.

I hate to be so blunt and harsh but it is the only language your stubborn heart can comprehend, it seems to me.

 

[Jarthur001]

I already clarified that I was using a play on words and did NOT question your salvation. You fail to "see" and "hear" the points I'm bringing due to the theological lens you have.

How conveniently you forgot to mention that fact.

aaw. You mean like sarcasm.

 

[R. Lawson]

Is it possible to debate like adults?

 

[Jerome]

"I admit that some called, Calvinists, are the most quarrelsome set breathing, this is the reason—while they have the main part of the Truth of God, many of them are leaving out something important—therefore God chastises them because they are some of His best children! It may be a sign of life that they are so eager after Truth that they kill one another in order to get it, but I wish they would leave off their quarrelling, for it is a disgrace to our religion. If they had more peace, I might hope better for the progress of Truth. Everyone says to me—“Look there at your Brothers and Sisters! I never saw such a set of cut-throats in my life! I never saw a Church where they have the Gospel, where they are not always falling out!” Well, that is near the truth and I am ashamed to confess it." —Charles Spurgeon, "The God of Peace"

 

[Winman]

The question is not whether all men require grace to seek God, the question is whether an unregenerate man can do good or seek God. And the answer is YES.

The Philipian jailer sought God. Did he receive grace? We aren't told, but it is safe to assume he had prior knowledge of Paul and Silas and their doctrine. He may have heard them preach or heard of miracles they performed. And the great earthquake that opened their cells doubtless convinced him they were men of God. So this is grace.

But was he regenerate when he burst in and asked how to be saved? NO. And we know this because they told him he must believe on Jesus to be saved.

And until you believe on Jesus you can not possibly be regenerate, cannot possibly have spiritual life because you are dead in trespasses and sins.

An unregenerate man cannot believe without God's grace, but with God's grace he can.

But no man is regenerate until after he believes.

 

[Luke2427]

But was he regenerate when he burst in and asked how to be saved? NO. And we know this because they told him he must believe on Jesus to be saved.

And until you believe on Jesus you can not possibly be regenerate, cannot possibly have spiritual life because you are dead in trespasses and sins.

This is a faulty presupposition.

You presuppose that one can not possibly be regenerate until one believes.

You are dead wrong about this as has been shown to you from the Word of God numerous times.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

The question is not whether all men require grace to seek God, the question is whether an unregenerate man can do good or seek God. And the answer is YES.

The Philipian jailer sought God. Did he receive grace? We aren't told, but it is safe to assume he had prior knowledge of Paul and Silas and their doctrine. He may have heard them preach or heard of miracles they performed. And the great earthquake that opened their cells doubtless convinced him they were men of God. So this is grace.

But was he regenerate when he burst in and asked how to be saved? NO. And we know this because they told him he must believe on Jesus to be saved.

And until you believe on Jesus you can not possibly be regenerate, cannot possibly have spiritual life because you are dead in trespasses and sins.

An unregenerate man cannot believe without God's grace, but with God's grace he can.

But no man is regenerate until after he believes.

Does Christ commit Himself to all who believe in HIS name?

No, in John 2:23-25 Jesus rejects the belief (will) of these people. (BTW the word believe in vs. 23 same word in John 3:16.) they displayed belief, but it was rejected by JESUS. (ESV) 23 Now when he was in Jerusalem at the Passover Feast, many believed in his name when they saw the signs that he was doing. 24 But Jesus on his part did not entrust himself to them, because he knew all people 25 and needed no one to bear witness about man, for he himself knew what was in man.

One then should, and rightly so, ask the question what belief/or faith is accepted by Christ and when does He accept faith.

Enter John 3.

Jesus converses with a learned teacher of Israel, Nicodemus. This Teacher explains his position, ie. belief in Jesus, "we know(statement of belief) that you are a teacher come from God".

Nicodemus is by sheer human reasoning deducing this knowledge. If then faith (ie. we know) precedes regeneration then Jesus should have congratulated this wise teacher.

But notice the response of Jesus to Nicodemus' knowledge/assent.
3 Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again(can also be rendered born from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Jesus says to Nicodemus no matter how much human reasoning you apply to your soul's salvation the first thing that must happen, you must be born from above.

Now Nic did not understand.
Jesus explains, That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
This is two distinct births. First birth is only flesh. The second or new birth is spirit from The Spirit.

The ability of The Spirit in contrast to the flesh, in spiritual matters, is detailed by Paul in 1 Corinthians 2:13,14

13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

Now notice the knowledge of those who experience this New Birth or birth from above.

Jesus uses the illustration of the wind.

Do not marvel that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit."

What a tremendous truth, you do not know you are born again until after you are born again.

This requires then that regeneration (new birth) precede faith.

Why?

Because if the opposite were true then faith would demand "the wind" or The Spirit to blow or work right here. This would violate the unknown work of The Spirit that Jesus clearly sets forth to Nicodemus and us in John 3:1-8.

BTW after the unknown work of The Spirit is begun, through the new birth, faith can be placed, hence Jesus further explaination to Nicodemus in John 3:10-21.

 

[R. Lawson]

"I admit that some called, Calvinists, are the most quarrelsome set breathing, this is the reason—while they have the main part of the Truth of God, many of them are leaving out something important—therefore God chastises them because they are some of His best children! It may be a sign of life that they are so eager after Truth that they kill one another in order to get it, but I wish they would leave off their quarrelling, for it is a disgrace to our religion. If they had more peace, I might hope better for the progress of Truth. Everyone says to me—“Look there at your Brothers and Sisters! I never saw such a set of cut-throats in my life! I never saw a Church where they have the Gospel, where they are not always falling out!” Well, that is near the truth and I am ashamed to confess it." —Charles Spurgeon, "The God of Peace"

Good post. I've read that Calvin did not want to preach often on predestination and election, but was often sucked into it by passerby's.

 

[InTheLight]

This is a faulty presupposition.

You presuppose that one can not possibly be regenerate until one believes.

You are dead wrong about this as has been shown to you from the Word of God numerous times.

I've missed those discussions, I'm new here. Please show me.

 

[slave 4 Christ]

I've missed those discussions, I'm new here. Please show me.

See post 51 of this thread.

 

[Jerome]

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

 

[InTheLight]

See post 51 of this thread.

I saw that post. I didn't grasp the idea that regeneration precedes faith. I did see that the idea that man doesn't know where or how the Holy Spirit works (Holy Spirit being compared to a wind blowing wherever).

 

[Luke2427]

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

At the same time, this faith, wherever it exists, is in every case, without exception, the gift of God and the work of the Holy Spirit. Never yet did a man believe in Jesus with the faith here intended, except the Holy Spirit led him to do so. He has wrought all our works in us, and our faith too. Faith is too celestial a grace to spring up in human nature till it is renewed: faith is in every believer "the gift of God."
-Charles Spurgeon, "Faith and Regeneration"

 

[Luke2427]

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

II. We must now pass on to show that WHEREVER IT EXISTS IT IS THE PROOF OF REGENERATION. There never was a grain of such faith as this in the world, except in a regenerate soul, and there never will be while the world standeth. It is so according to the text, and if we had no other testimony this one passage would be quite enough to prove it. "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God."
-Charles Spurgeon, "Faith and Regeneration"

 

[Luke2427]

"If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

Faith in the living God and his Son Jesus Christ is always the result of the new birth, and can never exist except in the regenerate.

-Charles Spurgeon, "Faith and Regeneration"

 

[Winman]

This is a faulty presupposition.

You presuppose that one can not possibly be regenerate until one believes.

You are dead wrong about this as has been shown to you from the Word of God numerous times.

I don't care if you quote ten thousand Cal/DoG scholars, if they say you must be regenerate before faith in Christ they are wrong. It is impossible to be spiritually alive and dead in trespasses and sins at the same moment.

You MUST believe on Jesus and have your sins forgiven before you can have spiritual life.

Therefore the unregenerate man must have the ability to believe the gospel.