Can Unregenerate Man "Do" any Righteous Thing?

[webdog]

Of couse, and then the NT wrtier TELLS THE MEANING!!!






Paull tells us the meaning of the quote. You can add more light, but the true meaning that Paul wants to leave us, is found in the words Paul writes.

CONTEXT

CONTEXT

I suppose these OT texts don't really mean what they say, either...

[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times] “But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.” (Deuteronomy 4:29)

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[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times] “But as for me, I would seek God, And I would place my cause before God;” (Job 5:8)

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[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times] “One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple.”(Psalms 27:4)

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[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times] “Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let those who love Your salvation say continually, “The LORD be magnified!”" (Psalms 40:16)

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[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times] “The humble have seen it and are glad; You who seek God, let your heart revive.”(Psalms 69:32)

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[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times] “6 Seek the LORD while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near. 7 Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.”(Isaiah 55:6-7)[/FONT]​

 

[Jarthur001]

I suppose these OT texts don't really mean what they say, either...

What a silly thing to say. Again, the NT tells us what this means. Watch...

“But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you search for Him with all your heart and all your soul.” (Deuteronomy 4:29)

“But as for me, I would seek God, And I would place my cause before God;” (Job 5:8)

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Christ tells us...

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Matthew 7:7

Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.

John 14:13

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

>>>>>Christ is the LORD you must seek.


Do you see why the Bible says the NT is better? Not to rid the OLD, but the New tells us what it means.


Understand?

[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]Now you gave more verses.....
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“One thing I have asked from the LORD, that I shall seek: That I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, To behold the beauty of the LORD And to meditate in His temple.”(Psalms 27:4)

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In the NT God dwelt among man

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[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]John 1:14
[/FONT] 14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.

After Christ, left He sent Holy Spirit to dwell IN MAN

1 Corinthians 6:19
What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?

Do you see how the NT is better?
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“Let all who seek You rejoice and be glad in You; Let those who love Your salvation say continually, “The LORD be magnified!”" (Psalms 40:16)

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This is a good one. Please read.

What is Love?
What is salvation?

1 John 4 tells salvation is the love act of the death of Christ...

[/FONT] Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love.
By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him.
In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins.
Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another.
No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us.
By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.
We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.
We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.
By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world.
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

YES BUT JOHN....not everyone loves God. How do we Love God? What makes a person love God?

John says......We love, because He first loved us.

Thanks John for making that clear.

Are you not glad John wrote 1 john?
**********
BUT WAIT...God loves all mankind...right?

Paul says in 1 cor 13....NO...Love never fails.

That means that the love act the Christ did for our salvation WORKED.
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More verses...
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“The humble have seen it and are glad; You who seek God, let your heart revive.”(Psalms 69:32)

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Eph 2 say it is Christ that brings new life, and that Salvation is for all people groups, not just the Jews.

That is better right?
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NOW LOOK AT YOUR LAST VERSE..
[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times](Isaiah 55:6-7)[/FONT]
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[FONT=Times New Roman, adobe-times, Times]“6 Seek the LORD while He may be found;
Christ

.........Call upon Him while He is near. ..
Romans 10 says this passage is talking about Christ.


Let the wicked forsake his way And the unrighteous man his thoughts; And let him return to the LORD, And He will have compassion on him, And to our God, For He will abundantly pardon.”[/FONT]​

Who forgives sin? John says Christ.

I do believe that Scripture is right, when it says..
Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel..


do you not agree?

 

[Luke2427]

The natural man has a God given conscience, knowing right from wrong. God has also revealed to all men that He is creator. They know but they refuse to submit.

When the gospel comes to the unbeliever, he already knows right from wrong (accountability) and he knows there is a creator, therefore through the gospel he can understand that he has sinned against a Holy God and that Christ took his punishment for his sins.





Romans 1:19-20 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God has showed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and deity; so that they are without excuse:

That man knows to some degree right from wrong via his conscience and that he knows there is a God via natural revelation is no argument that I Corinithians 2:14 is a lie.

The fact remains that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God and that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is of the Spirit of God and spiritual and the natural man cannot receive spiritual things.

He must be made spiritual in order to receive spiritual things.

 

[Luke2427]

You didn't say a word about my pointing out the verses in Ezekiel 36 regarding creating a new heart out of stone pertain to prophecies about Israel and not regenerating the hearts of unbelievers.

The point is that the Lord would HAVE to do this in order to get them to serve him.

Israel is no different than all of us- God hath concluded ALL under sin.

Israel had more advantages than any nation and yet it was necessary for God to give them a new heart so that they might serve him; therefore it is most certainly true of all peoples of the earth, Jews and Gentiles

1 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what is the profit of circumcision?

2 Much every way: first of all, that they were intrusted with the oracles of God...
What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we before laid to the charge both of Jews and Greeks, that they are all under sin;

10 as it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one;

11 There is none that understandeth, There is none that seeketh after God;

The Bible is clear. We are all sinners. There is NONE that seeketh after God- not Jew, not Greek, not ANYONE.

If one is to seek after God one must have his stony heart replaced with a heart of flesh.

EVEN ARMINIANS believe this.

 

[quantumfaith]

That man knows to some degree right from wrong via his conscience and that he knows there is a God via natural revelation is no argument that I Corinithians 2:14 is a lie.

The fact remains that the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God and that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is of the Spirit of God and spiritual and the natural man cannot receive spiritual things.

He must be made spiritual in order to receive spiritual things.

And he becomes spiritual when he is born again into the family of God.

 

[Luke2427]

Answer- Luke, I'm sorry, but your position here is utterly nonsensical and unscriptural. You cannot be regenerated, spiritually alive and be lost and spiritually dead at the same moment, this is an impossibility. The Philipian had to be unregenerate when he burst in and asked how to be saved because he had not yet believed on Jesus. And until you believe you are spiritually dead in sins. Nothing you have shown has said a person must be regenerated to have the ability to believe. You are reading into scripture what it does not say.

Question- Can an unrighteous person have spiritual life?

I did not say he was spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time. Please follow more closely.
He was spiritually alive but not yet fully saved. Regeneration is the first step in the process of salvation. I Peter 1 shows this process:

1... to the elect who are sojourners of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,

2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied.

First is election according to the foreknowledge of God. We'll talk about that later. The SECOND step is the one I want you to see and respond to. It is "sanctification of the Spirit". Notice what this does: it brings one unto obedience unto the Gospel which brings about the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

What the Philipian jailer experienced was the sanctification of the Spirit which is regeneration which causes a man to no longer be just NATURAL but SPIRITUAL so that he can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[Luke2427]

And he becomes spiritual when he is born again into the family of God.

He must become spiritual BEFORE he can believe. Believing the Gospel is receiving something of the Spirit of God and the natural man CANNOT do this. The new birth makes this possible.

 

[quantumfaith]

He must become spiritual BEFORE he can believe. Believing the Gospel is receiving something of the Spirit of God and the natural man CANNOT do this. The new birth makes this possible.

This is the semantic difference between us, whereas I believe that the role of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction upon men who then freely respond to this conviction.

Love you brother despite our differences.

 

[The Archangel]

This is the semantic difference between us, whereas I believe that the role of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction upon men who then freely respond to this conviction.

Love you brother despite our differences.

I'm curious as to why you and your non-reformed friends believe this. Is it based in "fairness" or some other idea?

The Archangel

 

[quantumfaith]

I'm curious as to why you and your non-reformed friends believe this. Is it based in "fairness" or some other idea?

The Archangel

Well, in part, I would say it to be intuitive. Do I wrestle with some scriptures, yes of course, but all in all, I am very comfortable and confident with such a position. For me 'fairness" has little to do with it, but I do believe that God is Just.

I guess, my strongest motivator is the difference I have with Luke regarding God's primary "motivation" for me that being Love.

 

[Jerome]

"In our own day certain preachers assure us that a man must he regenerated before we may bid him believe in Jesus Christ; some degree of a work of grace in the heart being, in their judgment, the only warrant to believe. This also is false. It takes away a gospel for sinners and offers us a gospel for saints. It is anything hut a ministry of free grace." —Charles Spurgeon, "The Warrant of Faith"

 

[Luke2427]

This is the semantic difference between us, whereas I believe that the role of the Holy Spirit is to bring conviction upon men who then freely respond to this conviction.

Love you brother despite our differences.

I know, and I am glad that you are not a Pelagian. Arminians are NOT heretics. They are orthodox.

I know you consider yourself to be a Molinist but I cannot tell a REAL difference between the two.

Either way, I do not think you are a heretic. I am satisfied that you are perfectly orthodox.

Scripture says in Romans 8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Faith pleases God.

Hebrews 11:6- But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Since the natural man is ONLY fleshly because he has not been born of the Spirit he cannot please God which means he cannot have faith because faith pleases God.

John 3:6- That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The natural man MUST be something MORE than natural BEFORE he can receive the things of the Spirit of God. He MUST.

FAITH is receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

The natural man cannot do that because that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

He MUST be born of the Spirit BEFORE he can receive the things of the Spirit of God i.e. BELIEVE.

This is why John said in I John 5:1- "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God..."

The being born of God happens BEFORE the faith which seals the salvation process.

 

[Winman]

I did not say he was spiritually alive and spiritually dead at the same time. Please follow more closely.
He was spiritually alive but not yet fully saved. Regeneration is the first step in the process of salvation. I Peter 1 shows this process:


First is election according to the foreknowledge of God. We'll talk about that later. The SECOND step is the one I want you to see and respond to. It is "sanctification of the Spirit". Notice what this does: it brings one unto obedience unto the Gospel which brings about the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

What the Philipian jailer experienced was the sanctification of the Spirit which is regeneration which causes a man to no longer be just NATURAL but SPIRITUAL so that he can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

Answer- Your position is easily shown error by John 3:36.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You cannot SEE life until you first believe. The Philipian jailer could not have had spiritual life when he burst in and asked how to be saved, for he had not yet believed. He was dead in sins at this point and God's wrath was abiding on him.

By the way, you did not answer my question as you agreed to do, you owe me one.

Question- Was Abraham righteous or unrighteous before he believed God?

 

[Gershom]

I think you're missing something. If we learn anything from the Gospels, it is that heart condition of the person doing the action means as much, if not more, than the action itself.

So, the act itself is not necessarily a righteous act. If one feeds the poor (even though we are, in fact, commanded to do so) and yet feeds the poor out of a desire to make his own name great, there is nothing in his actions that will be viewed as righteous.

I think the Puritans had it right when they said even our most righteous works are shot-through with sin.

Might we do "good" works? Sure...in man's estimation. But I don't think it is quite as easy to have those "good" works be righteous in God's eyes.

The Archangel

I understand where you are coming from. But I still believe that a person who is not saved can perform a righteous act, and of course as you have pointed out, the unsaved are not righteous and no amount of righteous deeds will bring salvation.

 

[quantumfaith]

I know, and I am glad that you are not a Pelagian. Arminians are NOT heretics. They are orthodox.

I know you consider yourself to be a Molinist but I cannot tell a REAL difference between the two.

Either way, I do not think you are a heretic. I am satisfied that you are perfectly orthodox.

Scripture says in Romans 8 "So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God."

Faith pleases God.

Hebrews 11:6- But without faith [it is] impossible to please [him]: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and [that] he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Since the natural man is ONLY fleshly because he has not been born of the Spirit he cannot please God which means he cannot have faith because faith pleases God.



The natural man MUST be something MORE than natural BEFORE he can receive the things of the Spirit of God. He MUST.

FAITH is receiving the things of the Spirit of God.

The natural man cannot do that because that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the Spirit is Spirit.

He MUST be born of the Spirit BEFORE he can receive the things of the Spirit of God i.e. BELIEVE.

This is why John said in I John 5:1- "Whosoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God..."

The being born of God happens BEFORE the faith which seals the salvation process.

Read Kenneth Keathley;s book Salvation and Sovereignty. Some really good stuff. He defines Molinism and compares and contrasts it with various "degrees of Calvinism. He, unless I am mistaken, is considered to be a moderate calvinist.

 

[Gershom]

No, not if the motive is corrupt.

If a man feeds the poor in his country so that he can get elected to office so that he can embark on a terrible holocaust and kill millions of people, is the deed of feeding the poor GOOD?

Motive is the ONLY thing that determines if something is good or not.

NO unregenerate person does ANYTHING for the proper motive- that God might be glorified.


Jesus said it clearly, "A corrupt tree CANNOT bring forth good fruit."

Paul said, "I know that in me, that is in my flesh dwelleth NO GOOD thing."

He said, "There is NONE that doeth good- no not ONE"

Proverbs 21:4 says that even, "the PLOWING of the wicked is sin". Plowing is in and of itself a noble endeavor designed to industriously provide for one's own- but if the wicked does this noble deed it is SIN.

No, the Bible is abundantly clear- the unregenerate can do NO GOOD.

Luke2427, thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for your demeanor these past days. I like what John MacArthur said in a sermon I listened to long ago (yes, JM is one of my favorite preachers even though he is Calvinistic, I have learned much from his ministry ) "you don't have to blow anybody out of the water... Just positively affirm the truth." I think we would all do well to follow that principle and we would see much greater things accomplished for good.

Anyway, as the question was asked, "can an unregenerate man "do" any righteous thing?" I still maintain that it is possible. I understand your point about the motive behind the act. But I am having a hard time believing that a person who passes by a hungry man and reaches in his own pocket to give the man money for a meal isn't a righteous act, no matter what the spiritual condition of the giver. I see it as doing what is righteous.

God bless.
Tom

 

[Gershom]

Another thought..

An act or deed is either right or wrong, righteous or unrighteous. Giving surely is not unrighteous. What do you think?

 

[Luke2427]

Answer- Your position is easily shown error by John 3:36.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

You cannot SEE life until you first believe. The Philipian jailer could not have had spiritual life when he burst in and asked how to be saved, for he had not yet believed. He was dead in sins at this point and God's wrath was abiding on him.

By the way, you did not answer my question as you agreed to do, you owe me one.

Question- Was Abraham righteous or unrighteous before he believed God?

John 3:36 cannot be taken at face value and here is why.

It says that he that believeth not shall not see life. Paul was alive when Jesus said this. Paul did not believe. Paul DID see life.

The point is that there is no hope of spiritual life for one that will not believe.

If a person NEVER believes he will NEVER see life.

If you demand that it be taken at face value then you need to explain how MANY, MANY people did not believe when Jesus said that but yet they eventually DID come to see life.
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I missed the question- I apologize. It was a unintentional.

Abraham was unrighteous until he believed. Faith is necessary for righteousness to be imputed to one's account. However, one cannot BELIEVE until he is regenerated.

One must be regenerated so that he can believe so that he can be made righteous.
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You did not respond to the passage in I Peter 1.

 

[Luke2427]

Another thought..

An act or deed is either right or wrong, righteous or unrighteous. Giving surely is not unrighteous. What do you think?

An act is righteous or unrighteous based on the motive.

It is a matter of the heart.

Adultery is sin but sex is not unrighteous if the motive is to love your spouse and render due benevolence.

Murder is sin but killing is not unrighteous if one does it to defend his country or family.

Idolatry is sin but worship is not unrighteous if it is directed to the one true God.

The act is not what is righteous or righteous; the motive is what makes it righteous or unrighteous.

From whence [come] wars and fightings among you? [come they] not hence, [even] of your lusts that war in your members?

Matthew 15:18-20 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. 19For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:

 

[Luke2427]

Luke2427, thanks for your thoughts, and thanks for your demeanor these past days. I like what John MacArthur said in a sermon I listened to long ago (yes, JM is one of my favorite preachers even though he is Calvinistic, I have learned much from his ministry ) "you don't have to blow anybody out of the water... Just positively affirm the truth." I think we would all do well to follow that principle and we would see much greater things accomplished for good.

Anyway, as the question was asked, "can an unregenerate man "do" any righteous thing?" I still maintain that it is possible. I understand your point about the motive behind the act. But I am having a hard time believing that a person who passes by a hungry man and reaches in his own pocket to give the man money for a meal isn't a righteous act, no matter what the spiritual condition of the giver. I see it as doing what is righteous.

God bless.
Tom

Would you say it is righteous in the eyes of a holy God?