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Which "camp" is really the defender of Divine Sovereignty?

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Winman

Active Member
You are correct, all 100 could be saved. But there is an equal chance they could all be lost.

As for your children, there is no way to know if they are elect or not, and nothing you can do about it. You could teach them about Jesus every day, if they are not elect you are out of luck and they cannot believe.

Non-Cals believe differently, we believe we can teach our children about Christ and encourage them to believe, and that they can choose to believe. We can pray God to draw and influence them as their destiny is not set in stone as your doctrine teaches.

I am glad you are attending Liberty, I hope you will learn about other views than Calvinism and at least give them some consideration.
 
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zrs6v4

Member
Winman, for the heck of it, can you directly answer the following questions in accordance to your belief system.

The topic is the Fall of mankind Genesis 3.

1. Did God know it was going to happen before creation, did He know Adam was going to sin?


2. Did God want it to happen? Why? Why not?

3. Could God have stopped Adam from sinning and the fall? why didn't He if He didn't want it to happen?


4. Did God directly cause Adam to sin?


5. Did God desire the fall to happen or did He enjoy it?

6. Did God choose to let the fall happen even though He didn't desire it?

7. Why did the fall happen?
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Winman said:
You are correct, all 100 could be saved. But there is an equal chance they could all be lost.

As for your children, there is no way to know if they are elect or not, and nothing you can do about it. You could teach them about Jesus every day, if they are not elect you are out of luck and they cannot believe.

Non-Cals believe differently, we believe we can teach our children about Christ and encourage them to believe, and that they can choose to believe. We can pray God to draw and influence them as their destiny is not set in stone as your doctrine teaches.

I am glad you are attending Liberty, I hope you will learn about other views than Calvinism and at least give them some consideration.
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Winman I know what you believe better than you do. I argued far better than you do from your perspective for years.

I attended an Arminian college a decade ago.

I was a Free Will Baptist for a decade.

And what good is your prayer for your children? Isn't God doing all that he can already to save EVERYBODY?

Isn't it unfair for God to draw your children more than my children?

Doesn't justice demand that God give EVERY MAN the exact same opportunity to be saved?

If that's true then what good does your prayer avail for your children?

My system teaches that God does NOT ahve to draw all men equally and that a stubborn will is no obstacle to God to hinder his saving purposes. So I ask God to save and know that he can and very well may! He delights to bless his own and answer their prayers.

It also teaches that God loves his chosen more than all others and that he loves them with an intense, personal love. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable to expect that God will usually save the children of his own people because of this intense special love he has for his own.

In my system our children stand a lot better chance, than in yours.
 
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W

Winman

Active Member
Luke2427 said:
Did you miss post 94 or are you avoiding it?
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Luke, the scriptures show that man can act independently of God.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; WHICH I COMMANDED THEM NOT, NEITHER CAME IT INTO MY HEART.

Twice in Jeremiah God said that Israel was sacrificing their children to Baal. He said he never spoke it, he did not command it, it did not come into his heart, it did not come into his mind.

Bet you don't hear these verses often in reformed churches.

Try reading the whole Bible instead of cherry picking verses that support your view.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Winman said:
Luke, the scriptures show that man can act independently of God.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; WHICH I COMMANDED THEM NOT, NEITHER CAME IT INTO MY HEART.

Twice in Jeremiah God said that Israel was sacrificing their children to Baal. He said he never spoke it, he did not command it, it did not come into his heart, it did not come into his mind.

Bet you don't hear these verses often in reformed churches.

Try reading the whole Bible instead of cherry picking verses that support your view.
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And once again, you are true to form. You accuse Calvinists of not using Bible and when they do you ignore and dismiss the Word of God they put to you.

And then you post some verse that does not at all say what you want it to say.

OF COURSE God did not COMMAND them to burn their children. Who on earth has ever argued otherwise.

That does not change the fact that he decreed it.

Ps 76:10 Surely the wrath of man shall praise thee: the remainder of wrath shalt thou restrain.


The Word of God is clear on this as I have shown with a dozen Scriptures that you summarily dismissed.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Winman said:
Luke, the scriptures show that man can act independently of God.

Jer 7:31 And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; WHICH I COMMANDED THEM NOT, NEITHER CAME IT INTO MY HEART.

Twice in Jeremiah God said that Israel was sacrificing their children to Baal. He said he never spoke it, he did not command it, it did not come into his heart, it did not come into his mind.

Bet you don't hear these verses often in reformed churches.

Try reading the whole Bible instead of cherry picking verses that support your view.
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Here is another interpretive problem you have.

You cannot differentiate between implicit and explicit matters.

You always appeal to verses that at best only IMPLY what you want them to say.

You never appeal to verses that explicitly declare what you are purporting.

Vague passages are to be interpreted in the light of clear ones.

The passages I gave you are clear.

Your one passage in response, on the matter of free will and Sovereignty is VERY vague.

When God EXPLICITLY states that he decrees ALL THINGS you cannot take a vague verse that appears TO YOU to state otherwise and call the clear verses lies- which is what you did.

You do not understand this law of hermeneutics and it keeps you in the dark and makes you look ignorant before all who know better.
 
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Robert Snow

New Member
Winman said:
Is this a joke? I just said Limited Atonement is a ridiculous doctrine. I do not agree with any of the 5 points of Calvinism.

And I received Jesus as my Savior around 46 years ago. So, yes I am elect, but I rarely say it like that, I say I am saved.
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Yes, we are elect because we responded to the Gospel when it was preached. I cannot say why some reject the Gospel, just like the Calvinists cannot say why God chose to leave some in their sin (their belief, not mine).

But, when we say we responded they claim we somehow put ourselves in a position over God. However when they are asked why they are part of the elect, they cannot answer.

It is evident that the bible teaches that God desires all to be saved, but many will not repent and come to Christ.
 
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Robert Snow

New Member
Luke2427 said:
OF COURSE God did not COMMAND them to burn their children. Who on earth has ever argued otherwise.
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You have!

It is your belief that all things that happen are exactly what God wanted to happen. Therefore, in your theological world, God is guilty of this action. How can you deny this?
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Robert Snow said:
You have!

It is your belief that all things that happen are exactly what God wanted to happen. Therefore, in your theological world, God is guilty of this action. How can you deny this?
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That has nothing to do with a command, Robert.

You do know the difference between decree and command, don't you?
 
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Winman

Active Member
Robert Snow said:
Yes, we are elect because we responded to the Gospel when it was preached. I cannot say why some reject the Gospel, just like the Calvinists cannot say why God chose to leave some in their sin (their belief, not mine).

But, when we say we responded they claim we somehow put ourselves in a position over God. However when they are asked why they are part of the elect, they cannot answer.

It is evident that the bible teaches that God desires all to be saved, but many will not repent and come to Christ.
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Yes, the scriptures say those who have believed have OBEYED the gospel. They say the exact reverse, that this is God submitting to us.

They call us man and self centered, but call themselves ELECT, which implies THEY are very special, but most non-Cals call themselves SAVED which points to Jesus and not self.

Pay attention and you will see they have everything in exact reverse.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
Winman said:
Yes, the scriptures say those who have believed have OBEYED the gospel. They say the exact reverse, that this is God submitting to us.

They call us man and self centered, but call themselves ELECT, which implies THEY are very special, but most non-Cals call themselves SAVED which points to Jesus and not self.

Pay attention and you will see they have everything in exact reverse.
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Baseless nonsense.

GOD calls us the elect. He rarely calls us by the title "the saved".

And since God does the electing with no regard to anything at all about us it is cretinous to say that that term is man centered.

Calvinists are simply more knowledgeable of and dedicated to the Scriptures and their terminology than you are.
 
Q

quantumfaith

Active Member
zrs6v4 said:
There is a lot of messy posts to clean up and I don't know where to begin. Lots of misunderstandings, lots of confusion, lots of careless statements.

1. Yes, the majority go to hell.
2. If I knew my child was going to go to hell before I decided to have children then I would not have children. Yet, God knows many of His created people will go to hell and yet He still creates them. My point was not intended to go on a wild goose chase, but to show God's ways are different and His purposes are not man-centered, but for His glory. Yes, God is glorified in His love for us and is glorified for judgment. No, God does enjoy sin or desire for any sin from any creature. Yet, God wills it, uses it, and so forth as I said earlier in the thread.

3. As for kids. I have no children, but if I do all of my faith is in the Lord in how He deals with them. Its not about odds at all. My desire is for the will of God to be done and if He does not save my sinful children, what am I to say? Yes, I will tell them the Gospel and they will need to respond, but it is up to God to save them if He is willing. There is a sense in which God extends His grace throughout family members, so I would have confidence that God would save my kids.
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1. Question, from where do we get the idea that "most" go to hell?
2. This is a fundamental position upon which you and I (and Luke, with you) disagree. I submit that God's primary motivation is not about His "need" or "desire" to be glorified, but rather His love for His creation. We are populating the planet by our ....according to the way in which He created us. The fact that people are being born seems to me irrelevant aside from the fact that it should cause to think more highly of our God given ability to procreate, thus bringing another living soul into existence destined for some eternal place. It is our responsibility as parents to teach, train and expose children to the principles and truths of God's word. It is God's position and promise to offer His grace and each persons responsibility to respond to or reject that grace.

3. I am convinced that there is and never has been a sentient soul without some expression of God's grace (saving not just general) being granted to them. I am also convinced that God has engineered his missional program to include man to share with other man, and perhaps He is tarrying for us to get our act together and get serious about that mission.
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
quantumfaith said:
1. Question, from where do we get the idea that "most" go to hell?
2. This is a fundamental position upon which you and I (and Luke, with you) disagree. I submit that God's primary motivation is not about His "need" or "desire" to be glorified, but rather His love for His creation.
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So he made it because he loved it?????

That doesn't make sense, nor is it taught in the Bible.

I did not have children because I loved them, I had them TO love them and to have offspring upon which I could display and exert my affections.

I did not love them before they existed.

God made it not because he loved it, but so that he COULD love it thus showing his love.

The Word of God is clear on this in Romans 5:8 and Ephesians 2:7 and other passages.



3. I am convinced that there is and never has been a sentient soul without some expression of God's grace (saving not just general) being granted to them. I am also convinced that God has engineered his missional program to include man to share with other man, and perhaps He is tarrying for us to get our act together and get serious about that mission.
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While he tarries millions are dying. How does that support your position?
 
Q

quantumfaith

Active Member
Luke2427 said:
So he made it because he loved it?????

That doesn't make sense, nor is it taught in the Bible.

I did not have children because I loved them, I had them TO love them and to have offspring upon which I could display and exert my affections.

I did not love them before they existed.

God made it not because he loved it, but so that he COULD love it thus showing his love.

The Word of God is clear on this in Romans 5:8 and Ephesians 2:7 and other passages.





While he tarries millions are dying. How does that support your position?
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Luke,

I am sorry it does not make sense to you, but it makes perfect sense to me. Thank you for your input.
 
Z

zrs6v4

Member
quantumfaith said:
1. Question, from where do we get the idea that "most" go to hell?
2. This is a fundamental position upon which you and I (and Luke, with you) disagree. I submit that God's primary motivation is not about His "need" or "desire" to be glorified, but rather His love for His creation. We are populating the planet by our ....according to the way in which He created us. The fact that people are being born seems to me irrelevant aside from the fact that it should cause to think more highly of our God given ability to procreate, thus bringing another living soul into existence destined for some eternal place. It is our responsibility as parents to teach, train and expose children to the principles and truths of God's word. It is God's position and promise to offer His grace and each persons responsibility to respond to or reject that grace.

3. I am convinced that there is and never has been a sentient soul without some expression of God's grace (saving not just general) being granted to them. I am also convinced that God has engineered his missional program to include man to share with other man, and perhaps He is tarrying for us to get our act together and get serious about that mission.
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1. As has been posted Mathew 7:13-14. Path of the righteous is narrow. You can even look at Scripture and see that the number of God's people are little to none compared to the number of lost people.

2. God being glorified has nothing to do with a "need". God needs nothing. His seeking His own glory is not like you or I seeking glory. Glory is the perfect fit for the purpose of all things. God created us and gave His love to us, therefore He and only He can receive glory for it. Glory is the function of the creator/creature relationship He gives we glorify. It starts with Him and ends with Him. Therefore it isn't about us.

3. We will have to just disagree on #2b and #3.
 
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