Does Calvinism require a higher spiritual intellect, spirituality, and...

[Tom Butler]

Those of you who are writing tongue-in-cheek, be careful. Because some non-Cal will take you seriously.

To those who believe that one who embraces Calvinism may be vulnerable to becoming prideful, I suppose that's possible. But I believe that the opposite reaction is more likely. In fact, I submit that anyone who believes that salvation is by grace and understands that it is of God and God alone will be humbled.

But we to whom God has extended his grace need to be watchful. I'm reminded of the book The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. Screwtape, the old demon, is instructing his nephew Wormwood how to undermine a believers effectiveness.

Screwtape told Wormwood not to directly attack a young Christian, but to persuade him that humility is good. Then, said Screwtape, get in his mind and convince him to be proud of his humility.

We Calvinists and non-Calvinists both believe we are right, and both sides believe that the scriptures drive what we believe, and that the Holy Spirit has illuminated our minds to spiritual truth. That being the case, there is no justification for pride in any of us. Gratitude is the proper attitude. And it ill behooves any of us to accuse anybody of being prideful because they believe they hold the truth and we don't.

Screwtape would be rubbing his hands in anticipation.

 

[freeatlast]

...theology?

Luke2427 said in this post:



The quote is somewhat rediculous. It's essence is "If you don't believe this or that I'm far more intellectual, spiritual, and theologically mature. An Arminian could say the same:



I'm wondering if the Calvinists here believe Luke's quote.

The Gnostics believed they had special knowledge and maturity, too.

I just saw this thread and read the topic. I could not believe what I read. I think Luke would benefit from the pride thread :laugh::laugh::laugh:

 

[Jarthur001]

To address the name of the thread...

NO..

Many smart people are Atheist as well as other beliefs.


Calvinism does take Bible study. That would be hard to deny.

 

[Don]

I am reminded of the discussion between Simeon and Wesley:

Sir, I understand that you are called an Arminian; and I have been sometimes called a Calvinist; and therefore I suppose we are to draw daggers. But before I consent to begin the combat, with your permission I will ask you a few questions. Pray, Sir, do you feel yourself a depraved creature, so depraved that you would never have thought of turning to God, if God had not first put it into your heart?
Yes, I do indeed.
And do you utterly despair of recommending yourself to God by anything you can do; and look for salvation solely through the blood and righteousness of Christ?
Yes, solely through Christ.
But, Sir, supposing you were at first saved by Christ, are you not somehow or other to save yourself afterwards by your own works?
No, I must be saved by Christ from first to last.
Allowing, then, that you were first turned by the grace of God, are you not in some way or other to keep yourself by your own power?
No.
What then, are you to be upheld every hour and every moment by God, as much as an infant in its mother's arms?
Yes, altogether.
And is all your hope in the grace and mercy of God to preserve you unto His heavenly kingdom?
Yes, I have no hope but in Him.
Then, Sir, with your leave I will put up my dagger again; for this is all my Calvinism; this is my election, my justification by faith, my final perseverance: it is in substance all that I hold, and as I hold it; and therefore, if you please, instead of searching out terms and phrases to be a ground of contention between us, we will cordially unite in those things wherein we agree.

 

[David Lamb]

Hey, I'm pretty dumb and I believe in the doctrine of grace. I read it in my Bible and believed it. I don't get it all but I believe it.

Same here!

 

[Jim1999]

As Mr. Spurgeon purportedly once prayed, "Lord, save the elect and elect some more."

Like to think I am that kind of calvinist.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[Luke2427]

...theology?

Luke2427 said in this post:



The quote is somewhat rediculous. It's essence is "If you don't believe this or that I'm far more intellectual, spiritual, and theologically mature. An Arminian could say the same:



I'm wondering if the Calvinists here believe Luke's quote.

The Gnostics believed they had special knowledge and maturity, too.

Any REAL theology requires a certain amount of theological and mental maturity to grasp.

As weird as I think Molinism is and as incorrect as it is, it requires a certain level of intellect to grasp.

Calvinism, I think, the most accurate and deep of all the theologies cannot be grasped by a fourth grader.

 

[Luke2427]

I just saw this thread and read the topic. I could not believe what I read. I think Luke would benefit from the pride thread :laugh::laugh::laugh:

I think a more accurate statement would be that you did not understand what you read.

 

[Luke2427]

I surely hope that embracing Calvinism (or DoG) doesn't require a superior intellect, or I'd be outa luck.

.

That's not true Brother Tom. It is very humble of you, but not accurate.

It DOES require an above average theological acumen which you OBVIOUSLY possess based on your posts.

A GOOD Arminian requires an intellect that is superior to the average theological intellect.

I went to Jackson yesterday and attended a debate between James White and the director of philosophy at Wesley College in Jackson.

The director's name escapes me for the moment, but he was thoroughly Arminian and pretty sharp.

Even Arminianism, in order to get a decent handle on it, requires an above average theological acumen.

I consider Calvinism to be much deeper and more accurate. Therefore, imo, it requires a certain amount of spiritual maturity and theological intellect to really get.

You can believe it by being raised a Calvinist. You can believe it by receiving the truth of it later in life. But to really get it- that requires someone who is significantly sharper than the average church goer in this culture.

 

[Luke2427]

Same here!

I appreciate the humility but I've followed enough of both of your posts, you and Ann's, to know you are most certainly NOT dumb.

Please see my post to Tom above.

 

[Winman]

That's not true Brother Tom. It is very humble of you, but not accurate.

It DOES require an above average theological acumen which you OBVIOUSLY possess based on your posts.

A GOOD Arminian requires an intellect that is superior to the average theological intellect.

I went to Jackson yesterday and attended a debate between James White and the director of philosophy at Wesley College in Jackson.

The director's name escapes me for the moment, but he was thoroughly Arminian and pretty sharp.

You can believe it by being raised a Calvinist. You can believe it by receiving the truth of it later in life. But to really get it- that requires someone who is significantly sharper than the average church goer in this culture.

No, to "get it" you simply have to be brainwahed.
I once read a book by General Dean, the highest ranking POW during the Korean War. He was held over three years by a small group of soldiers. He was kept isolated from all other American soldiers at all times. Every day these soldiers were mandated to take several hours of political training, being taught the glories of communism. Eventually his captors allowed him to attend these classes, he was even allowed to ask questions and debate.
He found that no matter what objection to communism he might present, they always had a "pat" answer for it. These were often highly illogical arguments, but these answers had been drilled into them and they could not be shown their error.

Anyway, at the end of the book General Dean said that you can never convince a diehard communist through debate, their minds have been blinded through indoctrination.

He said the best you could do was take them into an American grocery store. One look at the row after row of fresh food would convince them of their error.

 

[Jerome]

"It is said by some that children cannot understand the great mysteries of religion. . . . Away with such priestcraft! . . . I do hold that there is no doctrine of the Word of God which a child, if he be capable of salvation, is not capable of receiving. . . . He who receives things simply, as a child, will often have ideas which the man who is prone to make a syllogism of everything will never attain unto." —Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography

 

[quantumfaith]

"It is said by some that children cannot understand the great mysteries of religion. . . . Away with such priestcraft! . . . I do hold that there is no doctrine of the Word of God which a child, if he be capable of salvation, is not capable of receiving. . . . He who receives things simply, as a child, will often have ideas which the man who is prone to make a syllogism of everything will never attain unto." —Charles Spurgeon, Autobiography

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Old Union Brother]

Those of you who are writing tongue-in-cheek, be careful. Because some non-Cal will take you seriously.

To those who believe that one who embraces Calvinism may be vulnerable to becoming prideful, I suppose that's possible. But I believe that the opposite reaction is more likely. In fact, I submit that anyone who believes that salvation is by grace and understands that it is of God and God alone will be humbled.

But we to whom God has extended his grace need to be watchful. I'm reminded of the book The Screwtape Letters by C. S. Lewis. Screwtape, the old demon, is instructing his nephew Wormwood how to undermine a believers effectiveness.

Screwtape told Wormwood not to directly attack a young Christian, but to persuade him that humility is good. Then, said Screwtape, get in his mind and convince him to be proud of his humility.

We Calvinists and non-Calvinists both believe we are right, and both sides believe that the scriptures drive what we believe, and that the Holy Spirit has illuminated our minds to spiritual truth. That being the case, there is no justification for pride in any of us. Gratitude is the proper attitude. And it ill behooves any of us to accuse anybody of being prideful because they believe they hold the truth and we don't.

Screwtape would be rubbing his hands in anticipation.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup: Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Rippon]

Scripture From The HCSB

to really get it- that requires someone who is significantly sharper than the average church goer in this culture.

I disagree. There have been many of a Calvinistic-mindset who are not necessarily the sharpest knives in the drawer. I think an old black maid orcook spoke of Calvinistic Bible truths to Spurgeon even though she wasn't very educated in the typical sense. He later said she taught him more of the Lord than many others (or words to that effect --google the story).

I think the majority of most biblically-minded people in Church History were semi-literate,if that. Remember that God has chosen the foolish things of this world to shame the seemingly wise.

1 Cor.1:28-29 :"God has chosen the world's insignificant and despised things --the things viewed as nothing --so He might bring to nothing the things that are viewed as something,so that no one can boast in His presence."

Pardon me,but you have been boasting a great deal and that detracts from any truths which you may impart on the BB.

 

[Rippon]

No, to "get it" you simply have to be brainwahed.[sic]

To get biblical Calvinism one has to be transformed by the renewing of their mind,so that they may be able to discern the good,pleasing and perfect will of God." (Ro.12:2b :A variation of the HCSB)

I once read a book by General Dean, the highest ranking POW during the Korean War.

Anyway, at the end of the book General Dean said that you can never convince a diehard communist through debate, their minds have been blinded through indoctrination.

Your analogies are woefully deficient WM.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, to "get it" you simply have to be brainwahed.
I once read a book by General Dean, the highest ranking POW during the Korean War. He was held over three years by a small group of soldiers. He was kept isolated from all other American soldiers at all times. Every day these soldiers were mandated to take several hours of political training, being taught the glories of communism. Eventually his captors allowed him to attend these classes, he was even allowed to ask questions and debate.
He found that no matter what objection to communism he might present, they always had a "pat" answer for it. These were often highly illogical arguments, but these answers had been drilled into them and they could not be shown their error.

Anyway, at the end of the book General Dean said that you can never convince a diehard communist through debate, their minds have been blinded through indoctrination.

He said the best you could do was take them into an American grocery store. One look at the row after row of fresh food would convince them of their error.

Hogwash, I wasnt raised in the Reformed church, I was a RC & taught by Jesuits & later Franciscans who all wanted me in the priesthood. I next went to a Presbyterian church but couldnt understand limited atonement. Further, they criticized me for having lived my life in sin with a woman I wasnt married to & fathering a child out of wedlock....when that child died I was told that I put him in hell because he wasnt baptized & we (his mother & I were sinners). Could anyone have hated Calvinists more than I? Truly they were Hyper-Calvinists & I denounced them. I was in the wilderness for a long time....over 12 years of hating until I began studying the Scriptures myself & seeing where it aligned up. At that point I went to a Regular Baptist Church & honestly they did not judge me & they helped me but they never taught doctrine....I was told to just believe Scripture but scripture was confusing & I had more questions than anyone could provide answers for....but you know what Reformed theology does. Aside from the Hyper-calvinists in my life who castigated me, Solid Reformed Theology & DoG took me to a higher level of understanding. So in closing, I was not indoctrinated but self taught. No higher learning or arrogance here. Just a sincere desire to know more & more & more.

 

[annsni]

No, to "get it" you simply have to be brainwahed.

How was I brainwashed when I read it in Scripture, did not hear anything on the outside about this doctrine yet saw it there in Scripture and just believed it? It wasn't until a few years later that I learned that there was a term for it and that there was controversy over it. So how is that brainwashed?

 

[preacher4truth]

How was I brainwashed when I read it in Scripture, did not hear anything on the outside about this doctrine yet saw it there in Scripture and just believed it? It wasn't until a few years later that I learned that there was a term for it and that there was controversy over it. So how is that brainwashed?

But, were you drinking Calvin flavored Kool-Aid when you were reading it? :laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

But, were you drinking Calvin flavored Kool-Aid when you were reading it? :laugh:

How did anyone ever pick up Calvin in all of this. My mother-in-law who is Dutch Reformed never ever mentions Calvin but states that they are Reformed.