Does Calvinism require a higher spiritual intellect, spirituality, and...

[Earth Wind and Fire]

LOL I was getting sick before I converted to Calvinism because the topic was always on my mind. I meant no offense. I was pointing out how hard it was for me to accept Calvinism because I was studying it 24/7.:thumbsup:

No offense taken brother & bless you for coming forth.:thumbsup:

 

[R. Lawson]

This thread has served its purpose and has been derailed.

Would a moderator please lock the topic in order to preserve unity?:tear:

 

[preacher4truth]

You do nothing but misrepresent me when you respond to my posts. You take what my posts make you FEEL and respond to that rather than what my posts actually say. It seems it is necessary for me to fill my posts with tons of fluff for some to be able to emotionally handle what I am saying. I cannot just say it. I have to pad it with tons of platitudes in order to avoid stirring ridiculous emotional responses. Rather than saying, "The average church goer today lacks the spiritual maturity to get Calvinism," I have to say, "The average church goer, who is not represented on baptistboard because baptist board is full of brilliant spiritually mature people, but the average church goer is one who attends service half of the time or less and rarely reads his bible and displays very little appetite for truth; this average church goer, who is not most of you guys, who is not deficient because of his lack of education, and not deficient because he is inferior to other people, but is deficient because he lacks a passion to study the Word of God to find the TRUTH of it rather than just proof text what they already want to believe- this average church goer cannot get Calvinism, not because Calvinism requires a seminary degree to grasp, because it doesn't, and not because Calvinism requires an above average intellectual ability, because it doesn't, but because Calvinism, like all great soteriologies requires much study and contemplation and willingness to change if the truth of it is proven by hard study- these are characteristics which the average church goer does not possess." That is how I have to talk to some on here. I have to add WAY too many details and fluff to keep from setting you off. I OBVIOUSLY was not saying that one cannot grasp enough of the Gospel to be saved without possessing a powerful theological understanding. To see what I was saying read the above statement.

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Do you often mock possibly idolatry by fellow believers?

Nope, It was meant to mock a cry baby who apparently cannot accept Reformed theology as a valid Christian Faith. You are the one who outta be ashamed of himself.

 

[webdog]

I missed the memo where Luke was deemed the spokesperson for the "average church goer" and where he gets his information that allows him to know what "the average church goer" knows and doesn't know.

 

[Luke2427]

I missed the memo where Luke was deemed the spokesperson for the "average church goer" and where he gets his information that allows him to know what "the average church goer" knows and doesn't know.

Where does anyone get information on the average of anything.

It is educated conjecture.

Can you say that the average person is not a tremendous Christian?

If not, based on what?

Whatever basis you have, apply that to my basis for saying what the average church goer is.

You are just being obstinate. Everyone here knows the average church goer is not a fine picture of spiritual maturity.

On and btw, this is a perfect example of your snarky-ness. Rather than saying, "Luke, where did you get the idea that the average church goer....", you had to say it this way, "I missed the memo where luke was deemed the spokeperson..."

You have a problem communicating with people who disagree with your positions. I feel certain that we could get plenty to testify to this problem of yours. I have seen many of them point it out to you. Others have pm'd me to tell me not to waste my time on you.

 

[webdog]

Where does anyone get information on the average of anything.

By asking.

Can you say that the average person is not a tremendous Christian?

Average person or average believer? What does "tremendous" have to do with it?

If not, based on what?

Based on how you define it.

Whatever basis you have, apply that to my basis for saying what the average church goer is.

I don't have a basis, as I don't know their hearts. This is like saying the average gynecologist is a pervert. What is that based on...my opinion, and that's it.

You are just being obstinate. Everyone here knows the average church goer is not a fine picture of spiritual maturity.

I'm not...and I doubt it. I'm an "average church goer" and to me that is an insult. I'm in a church with 250 more like me and I woldn't dare say the "majority" of them are not spiritually mature.

At any rate, what does this say about the shepherds of the flock?

 

[webdog]

This thread has served its purpose and has been derailed.

Would a moderator please lock the topic in order to preserve unity?:tear:

No...that never happens here!

 

[Luke2427]

By asking.
Average person or average believer? What does "tremendous" have to do with it?

It is a very simple question. Would you say that the average American is a good Christian?

Based on how you define it.

How do you define it?

I don't have a basis, as I don't know their hearts. This is like saying the average gynecologist is a pervert. What is that based on...my opinion, and that's it.

So then you never make any conjecture about averages without hard stats, is that right?

You would not say that the average 8 year old does not know the periodic table, right?

Some do. There's no doubt about that. As far as you know, the average does, right? Because you can't ask all of them, nor do you have any hard stats on the matter.

You would reject the idea that the average 8 year does not know the periodic table because you can't ask them, right?

That's your standard of conjecture concerning averages, right? If not, what is your standard for being able to believe that "the average _________ does ____________"?

I'm not...and I doubt it. I'm an "average church goer" and to me that is an insult. I'm in a church with 250 more like me and I woldn't dare say the "majority" of them are not spiritually mature.

If that is true, congratulations. Would you say that the average church member gives sacrificially to the church and missions? Would you say your average church member has read his/her bible through numerous times?
Would you say your average church member proclaims the Gospel of Christ on a very regular basis? Would you say your average church member is rigorously training, his/her children in the ways of God at home? Would you say your average church member knows where he stands soteriologically, hamartialogically, Christologically, and on Theology Proper?

Because if the answer is positive in all those areas, I think most of us can safely say you attend a VERY above average church.

At any rate, what does this say about the shepherds of the flock?

According to your silly standard here you can't say anything about them until you ask them or know their hearts.

 

[webdog]

It is a very simple question. Would you say that the average American is a good Christian?

I would say the average American is not even a believer. Do you mean "average believer"?

How do you define it?

I'm not, I asked you. Are you referring to believers, people who call themselves "christians" or Americans?

So then you never make any conjecture about averages without hard stats, is that right?

I don't recall saying that. Based on pure opinion not based on facts?

You would not say that the average 8 year old does not know the periodic table, right?

I have no knowledge of that as I do not know what they are teaching 8 year old today. My son's Pre-K curriculum is what they used in 1st grade 5 years ago. I would venture to guess probably not, though...but I would not state it as fact as you have.

If that is true, congratulations. Would you say that the average church member gives sacrificially to the church and missions? Would you say your average church member has read his/her bible through numerous times? Would you say your average church member proclaims the Gospel of Christ on a very regular basis? Would you say your average church member is rigorously training, his/her children in the ways of God at home? Would you say your average church member knows where he stands soteriologically, hamartialogically, Christologically, and on Theology Proper?

I don't know...how would I know...and how is it any of my business one way or the other? Does someone need all of that to understand calvinism?

According to your silly standard here you can't say anything about them until you ask them or know their hearts.

Why is that a silly standard? You have made the declaration that what you say is a fact. If this is indeed a fact, as you know everything you asked above...wouldn't the shepherd be responsible as well?

 

[Winman]

Luke, in my experience, the best Christians, those that are living godly lives are rarely intellectuals in theology. Most would call them very average, they have a normal education and hold normal jobs. These are the folks that are there everytime the door is open, and give sacrificially of their time and finances. They shovel the snow, drive the buses, arrive early to prepare food and set up chairs, clean the church, pick up the elderly or children...
Rarely are folks like this intellectuals. Intellectuals often believe themselves too important to get their hands dirty serving the Lord.

Ask any pastor who he would rather have, ten intellectuals, or ten average folks. You might be surprised.

 

[quantumfaith]

Actually the "average" of something is quite often not the best to demonstrate the "tendency" of data. Medians, Modes, Weighted average, Least squares, lines of best fit not to mention a multitude of other non-parametric and stochasitc processes often give a much better picture of the "average".

 

[webdog]

Actually the "average" of something is quite often not the best to demonstrate the "tendency" of data. Medians, Modes, Weighted average, Least squares, lines of best fit not to mention a multitude of other non-parametric and stochasitc processes often give a much better picture of the "average".

Is this coming from an "average christian"? If so, knowing what you know...would you be able to grasp the intellectually superior doctrine of calvinism?

 

[Amy.G]

Like I said......discord.

 

[Luke2427]

I would say the average American is not even a believer. Do you mean "average believer"?

I missed the memo where webdog was appointed spokesman concerning the genuineness or lack thereof of the average American's faith?

I'm not, I asked you. Are you referring to believers, people who call themselves "christians" or Americans?

Neither. I am making a point that you snarky remark was baseless.

I don't recall saying that. Based on pure opinion not based on facts?

It is called presuppositions. There are some things that are so obvious that we presuppose they are true. For example, we presuppose that raising the dead is not a common occurrence across the globe.

We also presuppose that the average church goer in this country is no where near a spiritually mature as he should be.

We base that on the average income vs the average missionary support and observation of travelling across the country and speaking with many different churches.

There is no need for you to receive the "memo where luke was appointed, yada, yada, yada..."

I have no knowledge of that as I do not know what they are teaching 8 year old today. My son's Pre-K curriculum is what they used in 1st grade 5 years ago. I would venture to guess probably not, though...but I would not state it as fact as you have.

Probably not???? On what do you base this probability?? Who made webdog the spokesman for... you get the idea.

I don't know...how would I know...and how is it any of my business one way or the other?

You don't have to know for certain. Educated conjecture is not sin.

Does someone need all of that to understand calvinism?

Irrelevant. The point is that I am to receive a memo appointing me the spokesman... before I can say that the average church goer is not very spiritually mature.

Why is that a silly standard? You have made the declaration that what you say is a fact. If this is indeed a fact, as you know everything you asked above...wouldn't the shepherd be responsible as well?

I also declare to be a fact that the average man in China cannot fly by flapping his arms.

 

[quantumfaith]

Is this coming from an "average christian"? If so, knowing what you know...would you be able to grasp the intellectually superior doctrine of calvinism?

I try, really I do, hope God will grade me on effort and the bell curve.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, in my experience, the best Christians, those that are living godly lives are rarely intellectuals in theology. Most would call them very average, they have a normal education and hold normal jobs. These are the folks that are there everytime the door is open, and give sacrificially of their time and finances. They shovel the snow, drive the buses, arrive early to prepare food and set up chairs, clean the church, pick up the elderly or children...
Rarely are folks like this intellectuals. Intellectuals often believe themselves too important to get their hands dirty serving the Lord.

Ask any pastor who he would rather have, ten intellectuals, or ten average folks. You might be surprised.

Your experience has not exposed you to many Christians who have any theological training, I venture.

My experience and the experience of those who HAVE sat under brilliant theological minds is VERY different from yours.

 

[quantumfaith]

Luke:

"We also presuppose that the average church goer in this country is no where near a spiritually mature as he should be."

This can most definitely be said of EVERY believe of ALL time. All of us are in the same boat, and....we all put our britches on the same way, one leg at a time.

 

[Amy.G]

....we all put our britches on the same way, one leg at a time.

Not so. The brilliant theological minds put their pants on both legs at a time. :laugh:

 

[webdog]

I missed the memo where webdog was appointed spokesman concerning the genuineness or lack thereof of the average American's faith?

Well here it is..."Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it."
I think my "data" is in solid ground. How about yours?

Neither. I am making a point that you snarky remark was baseless.

Huh

It is called presuppositions. There are some things that are so obvious that we presuppose they are true. For example, we presuppose that raising the dead is not a common occurrence across the globe.

Please tell me you didn't compare our inability to raise the dead with what a person does know, doesn't know and their relationship with God (that only THEY can know). :laugh: That is why you have so much problem with your Jack and John analogy...your "presuppositions"

Probably not???? On what do you base this probability?? Who made webdog the spokesman for... you get the idea.

No I don't, as I am not stating a fact as you did.

You don't have to know for certain. Educated conjecture is not sin.

Where is this "education" coming from...your opinion? If it's conjecture, there must be some evidence. What?

Irrelevant. The point is that I am to receive a memo appointing me the spokesman... before I can say that the average church goer is not very spiritually mature.

It's hardly irrelevant. Your whole theory is based on mere opinion. Have you ever thought about the implications from your opinion, btw? If the majority of believers do not have a good relationship with God, what is that saying about the influence of the Holy Spirit?

I also declare to be a fact that the average man in China cannot fly by flapping his arms.

There's a relevant response! I will also declare Luke2427 does not know what is in a person's heart or head, and doesn't know and cannot know what the "average church goer" can and cannot grasp. This evidence is based on the fact Luke2427 is not divine and is not privileged to have access to "the average church goers" mind and heart. How's that for educated conjecture?