Does Calvinism require a higher spiritual intellect, spirituality, and...

[preacher4truth]

If I was in their Non-cal camp I would be offended by your line or reasoning. Bottom line this ....They got some very intelligent & studied teachers & pastors.

I don't disagree with that assessment that they have those within their camp.

That wasn't my point.

My point is, that within calvinism there is a tendency to more indepth study of the Word. This does not say that within their camp, they don't have or possess intelligence.

You came up with that point all on your lonesome. :wavey:

I've heard preaching from both camps. The calvinistic camp is definitely more detailed by rule.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Perhaps the offense is not so much in the line of reasoning/interpretation of scripture, but in the delivery and attitude behind it.

Perhaps Pastor....but then you would have to ask each just what he or she meant & we would spend all day explaining ourselves. I do agree that the debate does get heated & folks dont always comport themselves with decorum. That is sad & it is sinful, agreed my brother.

 

[Gershom]

Perhaps Pastor....but then you would have to ask each just what he or she meant & we would spend all day explaining ourselves. I do agree that the debate does get heated & folks dont always comport themselves with decorum. That is sad & it is sinful, agreed my brother.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't disagree with that assessment that they have those within their camp.

That wasn't my point.

My point is, that within calvinism there is a tendency to more indepth study of the Word. This does not say that within their camp, they don't have or possess intelligence.

You came up with that point all on your lonesome. :wavey:

I've heard preaching from both camps. The calvinistic camp is definitely more detailed by rule.

My abject apology then sir.....

 

[preacher4truth]

Perhaps Pastor....but then you would have to ask each just what he or she meant & we would spend all day explaining ourselves. I do agree that the debate does get heated & folks dont always comport themselves with decorum. That is sad & it is sinful, agreed my brother.

Let the scoffers/scorners assume. When one has hatred in his heart for another, that is the assumption that comes out toward the one hated.

There was no attitude in what I said, other than a good attitude.

:thumbsup:

 

[Gershom]

Let the scoffers/scorners assume. When one has hatred in his heart for another, that is the assumption that comes out toward the one hated.

There was no attitude in what I said, other than a good attitude.

:thumbsup:

The implication here is that someone who gets called to the carpet is the victim of hatred and the ill will of the accuser, and so they carry on and brush it off as "let them assume." Rather, the accused, especially that of a leader, should make every endeavor to reconcile and make peace whether they are being wrongfully persecuted or not. You are a servant and you have certain qualities to live up to that must be witnessed by those who follow you. Be an example to the flock.

 

[John Toppass]

I'm certain John doesn't believe we don't believe it all, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt on that, I think it is a reaction to the OP.

Yes john, could you clarify that earlier statement? Thanks

Well of course! I did not say why some were right or some were wrong. Actually, I do not see that to be my calling, I will not even call others names over this. There seems to be too many people willing to do that, then those same people whine about someone doing the same to them.

I arrived at my conclusion by reading and accepting the whole Bible as truth, I try not to interpret in a fashion that meets my standards instead of God's.

I have also reached the conclusion, that arguments over this position has nothing to do with salvation.

But to spend the amount of time arguing with other believers over this does take away from our mission (Matt. 28:19,20). Satan is pleased, when we spend an inordinate amount of time on this or any other subject that does not further our mission.

I believe that Christians are the Elect because they are Christian not that they are Christians because they are the elect. I believe this statement does not ignore any parts of the Bible nor does it make the Bible contradict itself.

Sorry, to be so long, but sometimes when someone asks me a question, I get the urge to tell them how to make a watch.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well of course! I did not say why some were right or some were wrong. Actually, I do not see that to be my calling, I will not even call others names over this. There seems to be too many people willing to do that, then those same people whine about someone doing the same to them.

I arrived at my conclusion by reading and accepting the whole Bible as truth, I try not to interpret in a fashion that meets my standards instead of God's.

I have also reached the conclusion, that arguments over this position has nothing to do with salvation.

But to spend the amount of time arguing with other believers over this does take away from our mission (Matt. 28:19,20). Satan is pleased, when we spend an inordinate amount of time on this or any other subject that does not further our mission.

I believe that Christians are the Elect because they are Christian not that they are Christians because they are the elect. I believe this statement does not ignore any parts of the Bible nor does it make the Bible contradict itself.

Sorry, to be so long, but sometimes when someone asks me a question, I get the urge to tell them how to make a watch.

Thank you .... I also agree that arguing is a waste & we should all be trying to direct our efforts to cultivating the lost. Very Good.

 

[Old Union Brother]

I believe that Christians are the Elect because they are Christian not that they are Christians because they are the elect. I believe this statement does not ignore any parts of the Bible nor does it make the Bible contradict itself.

amen! excellent post.

 

[Luke2427]

I believe that Christians are the Elect because they are Christian not that they are Christians because they are the elect. I believe this statement does not ignore any parts of the Bible nor does it make the Bible contradict itself.

So then God looked down through the corridors of time and found some Christians and said, "I like those Christians. I'll elect them"?

No matter how you slice it, this has God reacting in salvation rather than acting.

It has God picking the best of humans to elect.

Why does God pick one? According to you- because he is a Christian.

No. God's picking is what makes one a Christian.

 

[glfredrick]

One of the issues I've seen in this thread is that some of the questions are nonesense -- by their technical term, intentional fallacies on par with, "Does your wife like it when you beat her?"

There is no right answer to a fallacy like that. Implication is built into the question.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

One of the issues I've seen in this thread is that some of the questions are nonesense -- by their technical term, intentional fallacies on par with, "Does your wife like it when you beat her?"

There is no right answer to a fallacy like that. Implication is built into the question.

At Last.....THANK YOU! Someone with some common sense. :BangHead:

 

[annsni]

So then God looked down through the corridors of time and found some Christians and said, "I like those Christians. I'll elect them"?

No matter how you slice it, this has God reacting in salvation rather than acting.

It has God picking the best of humans to elect.

Why does God pick one? According to you- because he is a Christian.

No. God's picking is what makes one a Christian.

I agree. I can't see God "foreordaining" someone because of something they already did. It makes no sense. "Oh - they are going to choose me so I'll choose them right back." ???????

 

[quantumfaith]

So then God looked down through the corridors of time and found some Christians and said, "I like those Christians. I'll elect them"?

No matter how you slice it, this has God reacting in salvation rather than acting.

It has God picking the best of humans to elect.

Why does God pick one? According to you- because he is a Christian.

No. God's picking is what makes one a Christian.

Luke

Why do you so often harp on this "looking down the corridors of time" issue. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with picking the "best" people. It is absolutely NOT God in any weakness "reacting" to man, although in some scripture God does dialogue with man and covenant with him. God "wishes" to pick everyone to be on his team. Don't you have that kind of heart for people? The kind of heart that wishes that EVERYONE you come in contact with would meet and KNOW the Messiah? I hope you say yes, being that you are a pastor. Is it any different for God, does He not desire all to be in right relationship to him?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke

Why do you so often harp on this "looking down the corridors of time" issue. It has absolutely NOTHING to do with picking the "best" people.

Yes, your position does. It has God picking those among us who were wise enough and moral enough to choose God.

This is a problem for two reasons.

God is reacting rather than acting.

And secondly, it has some men better than others and God picking them. That would seem to be more offensive to the palate of your people than mine- but it is plainly wrong both ways.

It is absolutely NOT God in any weakness "reacting" to man, although in some scripture God does dialogue with man and covenant with him. God "wishes" to pick everyone to be on his team. Don't you have that kind of heart for people? The kind of heart that wishes that EVERYONE you come in contact with would meet and KNOW the Messiah? I hope you say yes, being that you are a pastor. Is it any different for God, does He not desire all to be in right relationship to him?

God does not choose everyone in your system ANY MORE than he chooses everyone in ours.

Your system still has God choosing to damn billions. God, in your system says, "You will not choose ME!? Then to hell with you! Burn forever for your insolence!"

That does not make God any nicer than our system does.

God made a choice in your system way back in eternity past. To save some men and damn others- just the same as ours. The only difference is that your system has him damning him because men did not choose him. Same problem, nonetheless.

 

[quantumfaith]

Yes, your position does. It has God picking those among us who were wise enough and moral enough to choose God.

This is a problem for two reasons.

God is reacting rather than acting.

And secondly, it has some men better than others and God picking them. That would seem to be more offensive to the palate of your people than mine- but it is plainly wrong both ways.




God does not choose everyone in your system ANY MORE than he chooses everyone in ours.

Your system still has God choosing to damn billions. God, in your system says, "You will not choose ME!? Then to hell with you! Burn forever for your insolence!"

That does not make God any nicer than our system does.

God made a choice in your system way back in eternity past. To save some men and damn others- just the same as ours. The only difference is that your system has him damning him because men did not choose him. Same problem, nonetheless.

Well, just as you think that I cannot "understand" your position. It is equally clear that you either cannot or will not understand the other. Bless you brother, but please try to "chill out" just a bit.

 

[Luke2427]

Well, just as you think that I cannot "understand" your position. It is equally clear that you either cannot or will not understand the other. Bless you brother, but please try to "chill out" just a bit.

I am not heated at you quantum. The only thing about you that heats me on occasion is you allowing the non-reformed to get away with rudeness and being smart aleks and constantly berating me for the same thing that you allow them to do.


And I understand your position clearly. I argued it for a decade until I finally realized the logical and scriptural error in it.

You cannot account for the fact that your system has God damning as many as ours. You cannot account for the fact that your system has God picking the best of us and damning the rest- the best are those who were wiser and more moral than the rest. Wise enough and moral enough to choose Christ.

God bless.

 

[quantumfaith]

I am not heated at you quantum. The only thing about you that heats me on occasion is you allowing the non-reformed to get away with rudeness and being smart aleks and constantly berating me for the same thing that you allow them to do.


And I understand your position clearly. I argued it for a decade until I finally realized the logical and scriptural error in it.

You cannot account for the fact that your system has God damning as many as ours. You cannot account for the fact that your system has God picking the best of us and damning the rest- the best are those who were wiser and more moral than the rest. Wise enough and moral enough to choose Christ.

God bless.

I do not even attempt to suggest that God damns more in one system or the other, the damnation of one (to me) is their rejection of God. It has never been stated nor implied that "only the wise and moral" choose Christ. In the "wisdom and moral" issue, we are ALL in the same boat. I, nor anyone else, "chose" to respond to God's grace because we were in anyway "better" than anyone else. We responded to God's grace because we were confronted with and acknowledged like Paul, we were the "chief of sinners". All the while being grateful that God extended His grace to us.

 

[Luke2427]

I do not even attempt to suggest that God damns more in one system or the other, the damnation of one (to me) is their rejection of God.

So the person damns himself? He made the lake of fire? He judges himself at the judgment bar of God. He hurls himself in the lake of fire. He powers the lake of fire and keeps himself burning it forever?

I do not think this is logical.

God chose in your system to damn those who do not choose him. That is Molinism and Arminianism. God judges. God casts into the lake of fire. God energize that fiery lake forever in your system as well as mine.

It has never been stated nor implied that "only the wise and moral" choose Christ. In the "wisdom and moral" issue, we are ALL in the same boat. I, nor anyone else, "chose" to respond to God's grace because we were in anyway "better" than anyone else. We responded to God's grace because we were confronted with and acknowledged like Paul, we were the "chief of sinners". All the while being grateful that God extended His grace to us.

It does not matter quantum. Your system still has some people choosing and others not. Your system does not account for the difference. It just recognizes that some choose and others do not. It does not try to explain what some have that others do not have that causes them to choose when others will not.

The only reason why some would yield to prevenient grace and others not yield to prevenient grace is because those who yield have something that the others do not have.

The only logical things they could have are morality and wisdom above their doomed peers.

Otherwise explain what it is in those who choose that causes them to choose that the others do not have.

 

[Winman]

Luke, the scriptures clearly show why men choose to reject Jesus.

John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Some men love evil, it is as simple as that. They hate Jesus and the word of God because it exposes them. They do not want to be reproved.

As difficult as it seems to understand, these folks choose Satan over God as many angels did. They don't want God or anybody else to tell them what to do.

Whether we understand this or not, this is what Jesus explained to us.