Perserverance

[jbh28]

How do you know you are elect?

Because I'm saved by faith in Jesus Christ "All that come to the father will never be cast out. all the believe in Christ will have eternal life. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " In other words, all the elect will come and all that come will never be cast out. All the elect will be justified. All the elect will be glorified.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes, and I addressed this in another thread to Luke.

Is God just to punish a man for what he cannot do? I mean, if man is able to obey God's commands but willfully disobeys, then God is perfectly just to punish that man.

But if a man is born a sinner by God's decree and cannot possibly obey God, is God just to punish that man for failing to do that which God caused him to be unable to do?

If I cut off your legs, and then commanded you to jump up and down, promising to punish you if you fail to obey my command, would I be just?

If you have addressed it to satisfaction with Luke then I will defer to him & your discussion with him. If this is not been addressed to satisfaction....then we will go through it. I dont know what he told you.

 

[Winman]

No Calvinist believes that there are people that will believe, but because God didn't elect them, the will not have eternal life.

Sure you do. I could pull up and post many articles by Calvinists that say there are different kinds of faith, but only true saving faith will save a man.

Here is a quote from John MacArhur

Faith comes as a result of the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit-He quickens our hearts to believe. Apart from the new birth, there can be no true faith.

See what MacArthur says? If you have not been regenerated you cannot have true faith, saving faith.

But this leaves you with a serious problem, how do you know you have been regenerated? Did Jesus come down and speak to you like he did to Paul?

This also implies the unregenerate can have a false, non-saving faith. In fact, I have read several Calvinist authors that have said this directly.

So, how do you know your faith is true and saving? It is very possible that you could be unregenerate. If so, in your depraved state you could easily deceive yourself in believeing you have true saving faith when you do not.

And that is why I asked about perseverance in the OP. It seems to me that the only way a Calvinist can have assurance that they are elect is by persevering. But that is not much help because Calvinists freely admit that persevering does not prove a person is elect. There are lots of folks that go to church and read their Bible that are lost as a goose.

But this presents another problem as well. A Calvinist cannot be sure he will persevere unless he knows for a fact he is elect. But he cannot know that.

So, you see, it is a vicious circle of doubt. You cannot know you will persevere if you cannot know you are elect, and you cannot know you are elect unless you persevere.

 

[freeatlast]

Because I'm saved by faith in Jesus Christ "All that come to the father will never be cast out. all the believe in Christ will have eternal life. "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. " In other words, all the elect will come and all that come will never be cast out. All the elect will be justified. All the elect will be glorified.

Here is a few more to add to the list.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Any who hears and opens the door.

 

[preacher4truth]

Here is a few more to add to the list.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Any who hears and opens the door.

The context of Revelation 3:20 is not for salvation.

 

[Winman]

The context of Revelation 3:20 is not for salvation.

Amazing, you cut your own throat. This verse should be the most welcome news you have ever heard, and you reject it.

 

[freeatlast]

The context of Revelation 3:20 is not for salvation.

I am listening. Please explain your thoughs on that.

 

[Robert Snow]

I have long ago determined this and so put the guy in my "ignore" list.

I guess it's easier to put Winman on your ignore list since you cannot refute his cutting apart the Calvinist theology so many here seem to worship.

 

[Winman]

If you have addressed it to satisfaction with Luke then I will defer to him & your discussion with him. If this is not been addressed to satisfaction....then we will go through it. I dont know what he told you.

Well, what do you think? If I cut off your legs and then demanded you jump, promising to punish you if you fail to jump, would I be just?

That is a no-brainer for me.

 

[Robert Snow]

The context of Revelation 3:20 is not for salvation.

I would believe this too if I held to the Calvinist theology. I've notice that there are many scriptures you Calvinists have to twist to get them to fit your flawed theology. I would rather just believe what God said rather than what Calvin said about God. Evidently he didn't understand the commandment, Thou shall not kill!

 

[preacher4truth]

I would believe this too if I held to the Calvinist theology. I've notice that there are many scriptures you Calvinists have to twist to get them to fit your flawed theology. I would rather just believe what God said rather than what Calvin said about God. Evidently he didn't understand the commandment, Thou shall not kill!

The interpretation of this passage wasn't made through a Calvinistic lens. Maybe open your eyes and see the context if you can see past your hate? You constantly scour the BB to call people arrogant, condescending, scripture twisters, and spread your hate for the brethren &c. Take a look at 1 John about hate for brothers. I've had and seen enough of your drivel. It's time for you to go buh bye!!! :wavey:

 

[Winman]

I would believe this too if I held to the Calvinist theology. I've notice that there are many scriptures you Calvinists have to twist to get them to fit your flawed theology. I would rather just believe what God said rather than what Calvin said about God. Evidently he didn't understand the commandment, Thou shall not kill!

Spot on again. If they like the verse and it seems to support their theology, they will post it over and over again. If it contradicts them they explain it away.

Jehovah's Witnesses will do the same exact thing. Tell them that Jesus is God and they will quote John 14:28 where Jesus said, "for my father is greater than I".

It's a house of cards.

 

[TomVols]

Much like the Arminianism/Open Theism you seem to espouse. BTW, you have no right to claim you will presevere either. If salvation is yours to provide for yourself, it's yours to repudiate.

And Reformed folks believe in Preservation of the saints. God does the preserving. Typical of man-centered theology, you phrase it as perseverance, as if it depends on you. The reformed say it's of God.

 

[pinoybaptist]

I would believe this too if I held to the Calvinist theology. I've notice that there are many scriptures you Calvinists have to twist to get them to fit your flawed theology. I would rather just believe what God said rather than what Calvin said about God. Evidently he didn't understand the commandment, Thou shall not kill!

You don't have to be Calvinist to see that by reading the Scripture in its context, it doesn't pertain to salvation. It pertains to willful error of a church.
It's you guys lifting a verse out of its context and applying it to fit your beliefs while accusing others of doing what you do.

 

[preacher4truth]

You don't have to be Calvinist to see that by reading the Scripture in its context, it doesn't pertain to salvation. It pertains to willful error of a church.
It's you guys lifting a verse out of its context and applying it to fit your beliefs while accusing others of doing what you do.

Absolutely. I knew what this verse meant, years before I ever even thought about Calvinism, or better yet, looked into the words elect, predestined, foreknowledge, calling &c. They need to drop the hate and open their eyes. For them to continually misintepret the Scriptures is a fearful thing to behold. On top of that significant problem, the name-calling, the hatred, the twisting of words by them of the brethren on here, the doctrine of having a God who learns things and Who doesn't know things until they happen...oh boy...it does not paint a pretty picture.

Everything I've said about them is truth and relates to exactly what they've done. The Bible calls this fruit.

 

[preacher4truth]

I am listening. Please explain your thoughs on that.

To whom is Christ speaking/dealing with here in Revelation 3? The churches. Not the world, not a call for the lost, a call to the churches, specifically here, a certain church, then to all of them in the context "..what the Spirit says to the churches."


I'm not going to go round and round with you and back and forth.

This, Rev. 3:20, has been applied so often that many think it is the interpretation. It is not.

 

[freeatlast]

You don't have to be Calvinist to see that by reading the Scripture in its context, it doesn't pertain to salvation. It pertains to willful error of a church.
It's you guys lifting a verse out of its context and applying it to fit your beliefs while accusing others of doing what you do.

Not so! The passage is a rebuke to a church (claimed church) that has departed and now is filled with unbelievers. The Lord never will spue His children out of His mouth. He never says of His children and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
The saved are not wretched, (that word means to be afflicted) We are healed, The saved are not blind, while we see dimly we do see. The saved are not miserable, by the way that word means "to be pitied" The saved are not poor, we have the riches of God, The saved are not blind, our eyes have been opened. None of those terms are for believers. They all however are for the lost.

Also the the Lord says:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
Then again He says;
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
These people had not overcame.That means they were lost.
1John 2:13, 1John 2:14, 1John 4:4
Overcomers are saved children of God. These in the Revelation still need to be saved.

 

[preacher4truth]

Not so! The passage is a rebuke to a church (claimed church) that has departed and now is filled with unbelievers. The Lord never will spue His children out of His mouth. He never says of His children and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
The saved are not wretched, (that word means to be afflicted) We are healed, The saved are not blind, while we see dimly we do see. The saved are not miserable, by the way that word means "to be pitied" The saved are not poor, we have the riches of God, The saved are not blind, our eyes have been opened. None of those terms are for believers. They all however are for the lost.

Also the the Lord says:
Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God,
Then again He says;
To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne,
These people had not overcame.That means they were lost.
1John 2:13, 1John 2:14, 1John 4:4
Overcomers are saved children of God. These in the Revelation still need to be saved.

We're not in Jesus' mouth, we are in His hand, correct? He is not talking about spitting us out of His mouth, which is what you are implying.

What then does "spue" mean here?

See my response to you on 3:20.

 

[freeatlast]

We're not in Jesus' mouth, we are in His hand, correct? He is not talking about spitting us out of His mouth, which is what you are implying.

What then does "spue" mean here?

See my response to you on 3:20.

I don't know what your response was, but the greek word means to vomit, vomit forth, throw up
God's children are not vomited out.
Also they are overcomers and these people were not.

 

[Winman]

Much like the Arminianism/Open Theism you seem to espouse. BTW, you have no right to claim you will presevere either. If salvation is yours to provide for yourself, it's yours to repudiate.

And Reformed folks believe in Preservation of the saints. God does the preserving. Typical of man-centered theology, you phrase it as perseverance, as if it depends on you. The reformed say it's of God.

What is there to persevere? Jesus said he that believes on him is passed from death to life and shall not come into condemnation.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The Bible says we are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we believe.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

This seal is permanent. What was the seal given Abraham when he believed and God imputed righteousness to him? Circumcision.

Rom 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

Can circumcision be undone?

So, I am not persevering, I am not enduring, I am resting safe.

So, as you can see, I am not Arminian as some of you falsely charge.