Was Faith a Gift?

[webdog]

I don't get it. You'll have to explain.

If I were your rich uncle (The Father) and gave you a Cadillac (Christ) by parking it in front of your house (His death for mankind, the atonement) and left the keys in it for you to use and enjoy (believe and be saved, believe not and perish), that's it as far as I'm concerned (God absolved of man's responsibility in rejecting it). If you never get in the Caddy and derive the benefits from it (reject His gift), it's your loss. (Hell)

 

[freeatlast]

Yep. Paul is getting his point across. We had nothing to do with salvation. It was all Him, and, a gift.

Are there any yellow lake perch over there in Kentucky? Best fish in the world to me, haven't caught any since being up in Cleveland a few years back.

I strongly disagree that we have nothing to do with salvation. We have to repent and come to faith according to scripture.

 

[freeatlast]

I don't know if I'd agree we exercised it to salvation. That could imply some sort of working on our own, but I think I get your meaning there. :thumbsup:

I always find it interesting that people are so afraid of works salvation that they tend to make them outlawed in the believer. First we are saved unto good works. Second while we are saved by grace through faith we will be judged by our works. Third while works do not save they are required in the process for salvation if one counts exercising faith and repentance as works. We do not get saved by doing nothing.

 

[preacher4truth]

Philippians 1:29
"For unto you it has been given on the behalf of Christ, not only to believe, but also to suffer for his sake."

Not only is saving faith a gift from God, so is repentance.

Acts 11:17-18 (Peter is speaking after seeing the Holy Spirit fall on Gentiles)
"Forasmuch then, as God gave them the like gift, as he did to us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ, what was I that I could withstand God?

18 And when they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life."

There's the gift of believing and repenting in the same passage.

Yep. Thanks for those verses of Scripture. The thing some will never get, is they had no choice to make, they had no faith within themselves, He gave us our faith as a gift. To go on with choice and free will is to make pretense that you inside yourself already had the ability to believe, when in fact God had the gift to give you so you could believe. Why? Because we were dead. God's Word and Voice and gift is what made us alive and enabled us. There was no faith in any of us (ability to make a choice). He placed faith within us, or, granted to us the ability to believe, actually giving us the faith, so then because of this giving to us, we were able to believe, or perhaps recognize that we are His sheep, and needed saved.

John 11:52 comes to mind here.

We were lost. Lost implies belonging to Someone does it not? We did not become His sheep, we already were His sheep scattered abroad, and He and He alone reached out and saved us, it was not us reaching out to Him. He did it all. All of it.

 

[preacher4truth]

I strongly disagree that we have nothing to do with salvation. We have to repent and come to faith according to scripture.

Saying we have to repent places the responsibility on man to do something so that God will accept and save him. This is not so. Romans 2:4 clearly shows us He and He alone leads us to this place. The fact we have faith is only due to the fact He gave us this gift to believe. Some act as if they did this repenting and faith thing and then God said "OK." That is not how it happened.

 

[webdog]

I always find it interesting that people are so afraid of works salvation that they tend to make them outlawed in the believer. First we are saved unto good works. Second while we are saved by grace through faith we will be judged by our works. Third while works do not save they are required in the process for salvation if one counts exercising faith and repentance as works. We do not get saved by doing nothing.

Your "third" is off as Scripture states faith is never a work regardless of it's origin and how it is defined.

I do agree there is no "doing anything" as even if there is this nebulous gift of saving faith given, WE are still the ones who need to apply it. The debate boils down to the origin, not whether we are the ones exercising it...as we are.

"Grace is not opposed to effort, grace is opposed to earning"

 

[freeatlast]

I still believe God loves the world that He shows no favoritism every man has the same chance Jesus. To believe in Him and be saved or not and be condemned and we were sent out with that message from Christ Jesus our Authority.
I will not limit it to how man sees the world, but the way God does everyone in it.

John 6:63
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life.

John 12:49
For I did not speak on my own, but the Father who sent me commanded me to say all that I have spoken.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.

Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.

John 3
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

if you mean by everyone having the same chance to believe everyone can experience the base evidence of a Creator by the creation then i agree. If by everyone having the same chance you mean everyone has the same amount of revelation above being able to see the creation then the statement is false. Not everyone gets the same amount of evidence and revelation. Some like us here in this country have churches just about on every corner. There is TV, street preachers, and individual witnessing, but there are those who have never heard the gospel or had any revelation of God other then what is seen in the creation. In fact the bible even expalins that not all have heard or will hear.

 

[preacher4truth]

I always find it interesting that people are so afraid of works salvation that they tend to make them outlawed in the believer. First we are saved unto good works. Second while we are saved by grace through faith we will be judged by our works. Third while works do not save they are required in the process for salvation if one counts exercising faith and repentance as works. We do not get saved by doing nothing.

Works prove salvation, they don't afford salvation to us.

I suppose you are attempting to say here I am afraid of works. Not at all. But if you must insist to say it when I have clearly rejected it, that's up to you. To argue that I make them (works) outlawed to the believer is unfortunate. I believe works help to prove one as saved, not that they assist. We never assisted God in even saving us. This is the great mystery of His saving. He rescued us. He did it all, and enabled us to believe, giving to us that as a gift, (faith) and also bringing us to a place of repentance where all we could do is admit He took, lead, brought, goaded us there and we consequently realize He changed our minds about sin, not us.

It is not God saying "OK, you repent, and I will save you." And then Him waiting for us. No. He is active in leading us to this place by His grace and repentance is also a gift of His goodness. His grace leads us here. Then we realize it was all of Him.

 

[kyredneck]

I hate to hijack this thread but you guys are talking about one of my favorite subjects.

You know Mississippi is considered to be the catfish capitol of the world, don't you?

I love to trot line.

A cousin of mine has a camp on the Tombigbee River we like to fish. We general come in with 50 to 75 pounds in a little better than a day of fishing.

Hah! I knew there was more than doctrine we had in common!

Check the itty bitty thumbnail pic on my profile, my wife and I are holding some nice flatheads we caught on trot/limbline a couple years ago (I turned the big one loose, it was full of eggs).

 

[Luke2427]

Hah! I knew there was more than doctrine we had in common!

Check the itty bitty thumbnail pic on my profile, my wife and I are holding some nice flatheads we caught on trot/limbline a couple years ago (I turned the big one loose, it was full of eggs).

I couldn't get the picture to expand but I could see that one of them was as big as your leg.

The biggest I have caught is not that big. But I have friends who go a lot more regular than me who have caught 60 pounders.

 

[freeatlast]

Saying we have to repent places the responsibility on man to do something so that God will accept and save him. This is not so. Romans 2:4 clearly shows us He and He alone leads us to this place. The fact we have faith is only due to the fact He gave us this gift to believe. Some act as if they did this repenting and faith thing and then God said "OK." That is not how it happened.

[SIZE=+0]It happened because we are sentience beings, but not because we start the process. It is true while all men are dead in their sins and trespasses and cannot rise from the dead on their own, God in His mercy begins the process at His calling to each individual as He sovereignly chooses where we can rise enough to accept or deny His offer. We are the ones who takes what He gives and in repentance and faith He in return completes the work unto salvation.[/SIZE]

 

[preacher4truth]

[SIZE=+0]It happened because we are sentience beings, but not because we start the process. It is true while all men are dead in their sins and trespasses and cannot rise from the dead on their own, God in His mercy begins the process at His calling to each individual as He sovereignly chooses where we can rise enough to accept or deny His offer. We are the ones who takes what He gives and in repentance and faith He in return completes the work unto salvation.[/SIZE]

You're getting closer. He is the author and finisher of our faith. The same faith He gave to us as a gift. :thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

Works prove salvation, they don't afford salvation to us.

I suppose you are attempting to say here I am afraid of works. Not at all. But if you must insist to say it when I have clearly rejected it, that's up to you. To argue that I make them (works) outlawed to the believer is unfortunate. I believe works help to prove one as saved, not that they assist. We never assisted God in even saving us. This is the great mystery of His saving. He rescued us. He did it all, and enabled us to believe, giving to us that as a gift, (faith) and also bringing us to a place of repentance where all we could do is admit He took, lead, brought, goaded us there and we consequently realize He changed our minds about sin, not us.

It is not God saying "OK, you repent, and I will save you." And then Him waiting for us. No. He is active in leading us to this place by His grace and repentance is also a gift of His goodness. His grace leads us here. Then we realize it was all of Him.

Your rebutal is to a post I did not write. You need to re-read my post.

 

[quantumfaith]

[SIZE=+0]It happened because we are sentience beings, but not because we start the process. It is true while all men are dead in their sins and trespasses and cannot rise from the dead on their own, God in His mercy begins the process at His calling to each individual as He sovereignly chooses where we can rise enough to accept or deny His offer. We are the ones who takes what He gives and in repentance and faith He in return completes the work unto salvation.[/SIZE]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

You're getting closer. He is the author and finisher of our faith. The same faith He gave to us as a gift. :thumbsup:

[SIZE=+0]No I think that I have it correct, not closer. You are correct that God is the author and finisher, but not the the enforcer. We decide if we want to come or not. Once enlightened we are left with the choice. Read Hebrews 6 and see that once enlightened if we fall away it is then impossible to be renewed again unto salvation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]He enlightens and we choose. If we fall away after being enlightened we cannot return because it would crucify the Lord anew.[/SIZE]

 

[preacher4truth]

Your rebutal is to a post I did not write. You need to re-read my post.

Not so. This went clear back to your post at #23, then in #25 I repled to your #23, then this to you saying I replied to a post you didn't post. and am making a rebuttal to the wrong one.

Nope, this is the correct one.

Go take a look, this is in direct response to you.

 

[preacher4truth]

[SIZE=+0]No I think that I have it correct, not closer. You are correct that God is the author and finisher, but not the the enforcer. We decide if we want to come or not. Once enlightened we are left with the choice.Read Hebrews 6 and see that once enlightened if we fall away it is then impossible to be renewed again unto salvation.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+0]he enlightens and we choose. We fall away after being enlightened we cannot return because it would crucify the Lord anew.[/SIZE]

Why did those in Hebrews 6 not believe? Because of choice not to, or because they were not His?

They could not have been His.

 

[freeatlast]

Why did those in Hebrews 6 not believe? Because of choice not to, or because they were not His?

They could not have been His.

That is certainly the position one has to take if they hold to hyper Calvinism, but that is not what scripture teaches. He does not enlighten those who cannot accept and the warning to those in Hebrews to come all the way would be wasted unless they could.

 

[quantumfaith]

He does not enlighten those who cannot accept and the warning to those in Hebrews to come all the way would be wasted unless they could.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[freeatlast]

Not so. This went clear back to your post at #23, then in #25 I repled to your #23, then this to you saying I replied to a post you didn't post. and am making a rebuttal to the wrong one.

Nope, this is the correct one.

Go take a look, this is in direct response to you.

here is what i wrote;

I always find it interesting that people are so afraid of works salvation that they tend to make them outlawed in the believer. First we are saved unto good works. Second while we are saved by grace through faith we will be judged by our works. Third while works do not save they are required in the process for salvation if one counts exercising faith and repentance as works. We do not get saved by doing nothing.

I did not say that works save. I said that ifyou say faith and repentance are works then works are required in the salvation process yet they are not what saves.We are saved through them, not by them.