It's ALL from HIM!

[Robert Snow]

Once again you demonstrate that you have no understanding whatsoever of any theology most of all Calvinism.

We preach not for men but for God.

We preach not for their conversion but for his glory.

God has given us the great privilege to participate in the most glorious thing in the universe- the propagation of the Gospel of his Glory.

That is why we preach.

If you preach for man and to bring about conversions and to save souls from hell then your evangelism has the same problem that your theology has- it is man centered.

So, your theory is that it pleases God to preach as an academic exercise which has not practical use whatsoever, and that this exercise in futility brings glory to God? Sounds pretty stupid to me, and I don't think God is busy doing stupid things.

Now, the truth is that God has ordained preaching in order to bring the Good News to every man, who then has a chance to accept the Gospel and be saved!

The only ones who are not elect are the ones who make themselves such!

 

[quantumfaith]

So, your theory is that it pleases God to preach as an academic exercise which has not practical use whatsoever, and that this exercise in futility brings glory to God? Sounds pretty stupid to me, and I don't think God is busy doing stupid things.

Now, the truth is that God has ordained preaching in order to bring the Good News to every man, who then has a chance to accept the Gospel and be saved!

The only ones who are not elect are the ones who make themselves such!

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[Cypress]

Because every example I enunciated in that post is DIRECTLY from the Bible. You do believe the Bible, right?

Because the Bible clearly says God causes ALL of those things.

God ordained that calamity and tragedy happen. The Word of God is clear.

God decreed the greatest sin that has ever been committed to take place exactly as it did- the crucifixion of Jesus.

God was the ultimate cause behind every ounce of Job's suffering.

God meant for Joseph to be thrown into the pit and sold into slavery.

This is what the Bible clearly teaches.

Do you not yield to the authority of Scripture?

Luke,
I am gonna have to go Matt Wade on you because the logic you are using means you must attribute no responsibility to man for anything, because you imply that these actions are the way God always interacts with humans. For example, Joseph consoled his brothers. So we should also console any evil doer because God caused them to do it and meant it for good. You cannot escape this. Back up and take another look brother.:godisgood:

 

[Luke2427]

Give me a break, when a man is told to go preach the gospel and does, are you telling me that is not participating in the salvation of others?

Did you get saved like Paul by Jesus appearing to you out of the sky, or did you hear a preacher preaching the gospel?

And did you participate by hearing, or did you storm out of the church and refuse to hear?

I could not be clearer in what I am telling you. There are no words in mortal tongue that could say it any clearer than the ones I have employed.

Our motive for preaching is to please God.

We preach for God not for men.

You got it yet?

 

[Luke2427]

Lukes 1st post:







Lukes 2nd post:

You are wrong master Luke!
My actions are ALL FROM HIM! Therefore God is responsible for my actions, not me.

You said so. It must be true.

Now you are beginning to see the true theological tension. It is not between libertarian free will and divine sovereignty as several have postulated. Because there is not nor ever has been nor ever will be a such a thing as libertarian free will.

The true tension is between divine exhaustive sovereignty and human responsibility.

Were that to become the subject of a thread then we would have something worthwhile discussing.

You are now starting to hit the hard balls.

Good work.

 

[Luke2427]

So, your theory is that it pleases God to preach as an academic exercise which has not practical use whatsoever, and that this exercise in futility brings glory to God? Sounds pretty stupid to me, and I don't think God is busy doing stupid things.

First of all that is not even close to what I said.

Secondly, calculus sounds pretty stupid to kindergartners, but the problem is not with the soundness of calculus but the mental ability of the kindergartners.

Now, the truth is that God has ordained preaching in order to bring the Good News to every man, who then has a chance to accept the Gospel and be saved!

Close.

The only ones who are not elect are the ones who make themselves such!

Utterly preposterous. We don't tell God who he is to elect. We sure as judgment day do not elect ourselves.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke,
I am gonna have to go Matt Wade on you because the logic you are using means you must attribute no responsibility to man for anything, because you imply that these actions are the way God always interacts with humans. For example, Joseph consoled his brothers. So we should also console any evil doer because God caused them to do it and meant it for good. You cannot escape this. Back up and take another look brother.:godisgood:

Joseph did not console his brothers. He just decided not to destroy them because he was content with the exhaustive sovereignty of God over his situation.

Joseph rightly reprimanded his brothers saying, "You meant it for evil". So YOU need to take another look.

Cypress you are stubbornly denying what the Word of God clearly teaches.

It is what you MUST do to defend this idea that God is not exhaustively sovereign and that his purposes are often thwarted and that his will is not always accomplished. This doctrine only exists to exonerate God from evil when God does not need exonerating because his motive for the existence of evil is pure and glorious.

And to go with Matt Wade is to miss the blessing of Psalm 1:1.

But what you cannot get away from is that you are denying the word of God on those things I have listed.

 

[Winman]

I could not be clearer in what I am telling you. There are no words in mortal tongue that could say it any clearer than the ones I have employed.

Our motive for preaching is to please God.

We preach for God not for men.

You got it yet?

You are the one not getting it. Is Jesus coming down as he did with Paul when he was saved, or is God using preachers to save men?

If God is using preachers, then he is allowing man to participate with him.

And if an unsaved person has to hear the gospel, that man is participating in his salvation.

You can deny this, but you would be denying reality.

And why did Paul travel around preaching the gospel? Why didn't he just sit back and let God save men all by himself?

 

[Winman]

And if your view of Total Depravity is correct, then any man who has ever walked into the church and listened to the gospel must be regenerated.

According to your view, the unregenerate man hates God and cannot help but resist the gospel. So why would any unregenerate man ever enter a church? They may be unregenerate, but they are not stupid, they know the word of God is preached there. So, how can they possibly enter in? Their sin nature will cause them to resist and stay away.

Therefore, every single person who enters a church and listens to God's word must be regenerated, as they are no longer resisting.

And if they are all regenerated, there is no need to preach the gospel.

You can deny this, but this is the logical conclusion of your doctrine if it is correct.

 

[jbh28]

And if your view of Total Depravity is correct, then any man who has ever walked into the church and listened to the gospel must be regenerated.

According to your view, the unregenerate man hates God and cannot help but resist the gospel. So why would any unregenerate man ever enter a church? They may be unregenerate, but they are not stupid, they know the word of God is preached there. So, how can they possibly enter in? Their sin nature will cause them to resist and stay away.

Therefore, every single person who enters a church and listens to God's word must be regenerated, as they are no longer resisting.

And if they are all regenerated, there is no need to preach the gospel.

You can deny this, but this is the logical conclusion of your doctrine if it is correct.

um...no Total depravity doesn't teach that man is unwilling to walk into a church service. Also, no man is regenerate until they are saved.

 

[Luke2427]

You are the one not getting it. Is Jesus coming down as he did with Paul when he was saved, or is God using preachers to save men?

If God is using preachers, then he is allowing man to participate with him.

And if an unsaved person has to hear the gospel, that man is participating in his salvation.

You can deny this, but you would be denying reality.

And why did Paul travel around preaching the gospel? Why didn't he just sit back and let God save men all by himself?

God can save men all by himself, in fact he has done that.

God has chosen that men be saved by the foolishness of preaching.

But we do not preach for men but for God.

You still don't get it. It has to do with motive, Winman.

 

[Luke2427]

And if your view of Total Depravity is correct, then any man who has ever walked into the church and listened to the gospel must be regenerated.

Yet another remark that is inexplicable in its absurdity and goes to further prove that you really have no idea what you are talking about.

According to your view, the unregenerate man hates God and cannot help but resist the gospel. So why would any unregenerate man ever enter a church?

If you need to ask that question then you are beyond help.

Surely you know that there are millions of lost people who went to churches this past Sunday who had no desire at all to know God. These millions of people had millions of different motives that had nothing at all to do with God.

You are utterly ridiculous. If you need to ask these kinds of questions you have no business debating theology.

They may be unregenerate, but they are not stupid, they know the word of God is preached there. So, how can they possibly enter in? Their sin nature will cause them to resist and stay away. Therefore, every single person who enters a church and listens to God's word must be regenerated, as they are no longer resisting.

Unbelievable. I bet you can't get even webdog to approve of this line of argumentation.

And if they are all regenerated, there is no need to preach the gospel.

You can deny this, but this is the logical conclusion of your doctrine if it is correct.

What mindless tripe.

 

[Cypress]

Joseph did not console his brothers. He just decided not to destroy them because he was content with the exhaustive sovereignty of God over his situation.

Joseph rightly reprimanded his brothers saying, "You meant it for evil". So YOU need to take another look.

Cypress you are stubbornly denying what the Word of God clearly teaches.

It is what you MUST do to defend this idea that God is not exhaustively sovereign and that his purposes are often thwarted and that his will is not always accomplished. This doctrine only exists to exonerate God from evil when God does not need exonerating because his motive for the existence of evil is pure and glorious.

And to go with Matt Wade is to miss the blessing of Psalm 1:1.

But what you cannot get away from is that you are denying the word of God on those things I have listed.

Luke,
I get no pleasure in proving you wrong.....but you asked for it. Gen 45...4 Then Joseph said to his brothers, "Please, come near me," and they came near. "I am Joseph, your brother," he said, "the one you sold into Egypt. 5 And now don't be worried or angry with yourselves for selling me here, because God sent me ahead of you to preserve life.

Needs no further explanation. Done with you brother until you can be rational.:wavey:

 

[Luke2427]

Luke,
I get no pleasure in proving you wrong.....but you asked for it. Gen 45...4 Then Joseph said to his brothers, "Please, come near me," and they came near. "I am Joseph, your brother," he said, "the one you sold into Egypt. 5 And now don't be worried or angry with yourselves for selling me here, because God sent me ahead of you to preserve life.

Needs no further explanation. Done with you brother until you can be rational.:wavey:

Cypress, there was no need for them to feel bad at this point because they were forgiven. God forgiving us ans telling us not to worry about it anymore is not his stamp of approval on our actions, but that is where your line of reason leads.

I am not being irrational- your line of reason is irrational, isn't it?

And if you are done it is only because you cannot deal with the fact that you deny the Word of God which clearly declares that God ordained all things since they are all from him, such as the deception of men by the anti-Christ, the slaughter of God's Son, all calamities and catastrophes, all physical ailments of all people (deafness, blindness, muteness, etc...), the torment of Job, the horrible mistreatment of Joseph, and... the fall of man.

 

[convicted1]

That God does not hold babies accountable for sin is far better than Willis' doctrine that babies have no sin, I grant you.

But if God can save babies apart from their participation, as you suggest, then that aligns itself with Calvinism, not your doctrine that teaches that God needs man to participate in order for him to be able to save him.

Whoa there, Bro Luke. I have never stated once that babies have no sin. I have stated that babies are born "not guilty", because they don't even know their left hand from their right. They only know when they are hungry, they cry for food. When they need their diaper changed, they cry, they know when they start hurting, they cry....babies do a lot of crying, but we all love them so much!! My wife and I can't have any, so we throw all our love at our fat Chinese Pug, Lexie.....she's spoiled rotten, and I wouldn't have her any other way!!

When an infant lies to keep from getting their fanny hot, they lie for that reason alone, to stay out of trouble. They didn't know that they were lying to God, and for this, God will not hold them accountable for it. Now, when they lie, and know they lied unto God, then that's a whole different ballgame.

Rom. 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.



i am I am's!!

Willis

 

[rbell]

Luke, for someone so utterly preoccupied with the doctrines of grace, your posts show precious little of it to others.

Is being nice, civil, and Christlike in your discussions that difficult for you?

 

[Luke2427]

Whoa there, Bro Luke. I have never stated once that babies have no sin. I have stated that babies are born "not guilty", because they don't even know their left hand from their right. They only know when they are hungry, they cry for food. When they need their diaper changed, they cry, they know when they start hurting, they cry....babies do a lot of crying, but we all love them so much!! My wife and I can't have any, so we throw all our love at our fat Chinese Pug, Lexie.....she's spoiled rotten, and I wouldn't have her any other way!!

When an infant lies to keep from getting their fanny hot, they lie for that reason alone, to stay out of trouble. They didn't know that they were lying to God, and for this, God will not hold them accountable for it. Now, when they lie, and know they lied unto God, then that's a whole different ballgame.

Rom. 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.



i am I am's!!

Willis

Then you do believe that babies are sinners and cannot get into heaven apart from the blood of Christ, right?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, for someone so utterly preoccupied with the doctrines of grace, your posts show precious little of it to others.

Is being nice, civil, and Christlike in your discussions that difficult for you?

Rbell, if you wish to discuss an issue with me in a civil manner I will be glad to return the courtesy.

You have no idea of the wars fought between some and myself and as such cannot appreciate the level of heat necessary.

When you start calling me an idiot and a heretic etc... I will speak to you the same way.

Until then I would appreciate it if you would be fair and equal and reprimand webdog for his "garbage" remarks only a few posts back.

 

[rbell]

You have no idea of the wars fought between some and myself and as such cannot appreciate the level of heat necessary.

"We wrestle not against flesh and blood..."

When you start calling me an idiot and a heretic etc... I will speak to you the same way.

"Do not repay anyone evil for evil..."

 

[convicted1]

Then you do believe that babies are sinners and cannot get into heaven apart from the blood of Christ, right?

Bro. Luke,

I will try to put this is as few words as possible, so that there is no confusion in what I just stated.

First off, when we are born into this world(I am talking about nowadays), the "death sentence" was already pronounced upon our flesh because of what Adam did WAY back in the Garden. This is what brought about the "fall"(which you already know), and by this "fall", all will die in Adam. So Adam's transgression is what will cause me to breathe my last breath when God see fit to take out of this "low ground of sorrow".

The only thing that guarantees me a place in the lake of fire, to die, die and never die, eternally seperated from God, is my sins, and not what Adam did WAY back in the Garden.

Here are two scriptures that I know I have posted on here a lot, but I do feel they support my belief quite well:

Ezek. 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Ezek. 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

These two verse state "the soul that sinneth shall die", not body, because our natural bodies are already "sin cursed" by what Adam did and the "death sentence" has already been pronounced upon it. Our soul is clean until sin defiles it. Verse 20 states "the son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son." We die "spiritually" for what we did, and not what Adam did.

Rom. 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

You see, Bro. Luke, when you read scriptures, you have to seperate what they are referring to; the "inner" man, or the "outer" man. A lot of scriptures are referring to our "inner" man, because the scriptures are "spiritually" discerned.

Now, to answer the question more clearly? Babies aren't born sinners, but they are born in "sin cursed" bodies. The "sin curse" I am talking about comes from Adam's fall. So, if they are born sinners(seperated from God), and they died, hell is the only logical conclusion. So they are born "not guilty", meaning sin hasn't defiled their soul, but it has already defiled their precious little bodies. I hope this helps!!

i am I am's!!

Willis