Sin Nature?

[quantumfaith]

If man (being made in God's image) was not created to live eternally, how could His creation been deemed "very good"?

Webdog,

Not sure I can make the connection there. "very good" to me could imply sentient, moral, responsible etc.

 

[webdog]

Webdog,

Not sure I can make the connection there. "very good" to me could imply sentient, moral, responsible etc.

I think God's use of the phrase implied perfection, hence creation being done in 7 days. If death, pain and suffering were part of perfection, there would be no groaning from the universe waiting for redemption.

If death is part of perfection, why will it be cast into the lake of fire one day?

 

[HankD]

I do understand that, the "duble entendre" nature of death. However, in the garden, it seems as though physical death was directly related to being banned from the Tree of Life, perhaps indicating God did not "originally design" us for eternal physical existence. And stating the obvious, the pronouncement of "ye shall surely die" was not immeadiate, but seems to me to be more in line with "spiritual death" separation from fellowship with God.

"Ye shall surely die".

Young's Literal Translation comes very close to the literal of this passage:

YLT Genesis 2:17 and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it -- dying thou dost die.'​

Hebrew qal infinitive for "death" followed by the imperfect tense of "death". moth tamuth ​

`tWmT' tAm

Or "dying (to die) you shall die". The physical aspect of death a progressive process.​

While this interpretive view is debatable it is IMO the most probable.​

HankD​

 

[quantumfaith]

Thanks gentlemen, I will certainly think on this further. I have always viewed this death as "spiritual" rather than physical. As for the "groaning of creation", I have thought of it as being under "mismanagement" (stewardship) of man. I will certainly think further.....

 

[Amy.G]

Hank, I do not know greek, is the greek here emphatic in meaning "physical death"?

I may be wrong but I've read where the Hebrew for "you shall die" means "dying you shall die". When Adam sinned, he was separated from God immediately (spiritual death) and he began to die physically (dying you shall die).

 

[convicted1]

I agree with this except for the part about being dead. A believer is never said to be dead. The Lord chastises a believer, they are still his son.

You cannot be separated from God under any circumstance once you are a believer, Jesus said he would never leave us (Heb 13:5). We are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

This is one of the best posts I have read on here, in quite a while!! ((((AMEN)))))!!

 

[HankD]

I may be wrong but I've read where the Hebrew for "you shall die" means "dying you shall die". When Adam sinned, he was separated from God immediately (spiritual death) and he began to die physically (dying you shall die).

Hi Amy, look at post 103.

HankD

 

[Amy.G]

Hi Amy, look at post 103.

HankD

Oops, sorry Hank, I missed your post.

 

[Aaron]

OK then He had a different conception/birth than any one of us.

I didn't exactly say He had no Y chromosome but was presenting the rhetorical case that it was supplied by God.

HankD

His whole body was supplied by God. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me, Heb. 10:5.

 

[Aaron]

Deleted duplicate post

 

[HankD]

His whole body was supplied by God. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me, Heb. 10:5.

Granted brother.

HankD

 

[DHK]

His whole body was supplied by God. Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me, Heb. 10:5.

If you mean his whole body was provided by God like our bodies are provided by God then yes.
But Mary provided the body. The Bible says in one place: "conceived by Mary," and in another place, "conceived by the Holy Spirit." In Genesis 3:15 it speaks of the seed of the woman. In Gal.4:4 Paul says that Christ was "made of a woman." The body came from the woman, Mary. If it didn't then Christ was not fully man. To be fully man the body had to come from "mankind" or the woman, and to be divine or fully God, He was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Both had to be present.

 

[HankD]

If you mean his whole body was provided by God like our bodies are provided by God then yes.

That is exactly what I mean.
I believe Aaron does as well but I don't want to speak for him.

The word was made flesh and dwelt among us.

HankD

 

[Winman]

If you mean his whole body was provided by God like our bodies are provided by God then yes.
But Mary provided the body. The Bible says in one place: "conceived by Mary," and in another place, "conceived by the Holy Spirit." In Genesis 3:15 it speaks of the seed of the woman. In Gal.4:4 Paul says that Christ was "made of a woman." The body came from the woman, Mary. If it didn't then Christ was not fully man. To be fully man the body had to come from "mankind" or the woman, and to be divine or fully God, He was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Both had to be present.

You are correct DHK, Jesus's body was just like ours, this is how he could relate to our infirmities.
This is why I have trouble with the term "sin nature". If we inherit sin through our flesh as the doctrine of original sin teaches, then Jesus would have been born with a sin nature which I cannot accept. No, I believe he was born flesh (the scriptural term) with the same natural lusts and desires we have, but he never obeyed these lusts when they would cause him to sin. Else where is the victory over sin? It was because he overcame sin and did not fall to these lusts and desires that he overcame.
So, I do not like the term sin nature, that is never said in scripture. No, it says we are flesh, and that Jesus came in the flesh too.

 

[DHK]

You are correct DHK, Jesus's body was just like ours, this is how he could relate to our infirmities.
This is why I have trouble with the term "sin nature". If we inherit sin through our flesh as the doctrine of original sin teaches, then Jesus would have been born with a sin nature which I cannot accept. No, I believe he was born flesh (the scriptural term) with the same natural lusts and desires we have, but he never obeyed these lusts when they would cause him to sin. Else where is the victory over sin? It was because he overcame sin and did not fall to these lusts and desires that he overcame.
So, I do not like the term sin nature, that is never said in scripture. No, it says we are flesh, and that Jesus came in the flesh too.

So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. (Romans 8:8)

Our flesh by nature is sinful.
We inherit a sinful nature from Adam. It is called the Adamic nature.
This is why Christ was born of a virgin, to escape that Adamic nature, that sinful nature. That does not negate that he was able to be tempted like as we are. He did suffer; he was hungry, tired, thirsty, etc. But he did not have a sinful nature, and neither did Adam. He was the second Adam. And only Christ being the perfect sinless man and fully God at the same time could die for our sins.

 

[Aaron]

If you mean his whole body was provided by God like our bodies are provided by God then yes.
But Mary provided the body. The Bible says in one place: "conceived by Mary," and in another place, "conceived by the Holy Spirit." In Genesis 3:15 it speaks of the seed of the woman. In Gal.4:4 Paul says that Christ was "made of a woman." The body came from the woman, Mary. If it didn't then Christ was not fully man. To be fully man the body had to come from "mankind" or the woman, and to be divine or fully God, He was conceived by the Holy Ghost. Both had to be present.

Yes, he took flesh from Mary, but there is no "Holy Ghost genes" or any other "divine blood" malarkey. The making of His body was miraculous, as was the making of Adam's, but even if God prepared it in the family way (so to speak) Christ would still have been sinless. Sin is not a physical thing and is not passed through the genes.

 

[Winman]

DHK, again we will have to agree to disagree. I believe Heb 2:14-18 makes it abundantly clear that he shared our nature.

Heb 2:14-18 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, HE ALSO HIMSELF LIKEWISE TOOK PART OF THE SAME; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil: And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage. For verily he took not on him THE NATURE of angels; BUT HE TOOK ON HIM THE SEED OF ABRAHAM. Wherefore IN ALL THINGS it behoved him TO BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. FOR IN THAT HE HIMSELF HATH SUFFERED BEING TEMPTED, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Jesus did not take on the NATURE of angels, but the seed of Abraham. It also says IN ALL THINGS it behoved him to BE MADE LIKE UNTO HIS BRETHREN.

Jesus had the same nature as you and I, if we are born with a sin nature, then so was he.

However, if he was born flesh with lusts and desires, but never obeyed them when it would cause him to sin, then he was not a sinner. The difference is the rest of us obey our lusts and desires and sin.

 

[DHK]

That is a simile, Winman. "like unto his brothers." It does not mean exactly like his brothers. It also says in 1John 3:1,2 that we shall be like him for we shall see him as he is. We shall be like him (a simile). That does not mean we shall be gods. We will not be divine, or acquire deity. In some way we shall be like Christ. In some way Christ became like us. He did not inherit a sin nature. If he did he would not have been able to die for our sins. That would have been impossible.
He was the sinless who died for the sinner.

 

[webdog]

Was Christ under the curse?

 

[Osage Bluestem]

But what do you say?

How did it come from Adam? Is it through the DNA?

How did Christ avoid it if it came through the flesh?

Sin comes to the human through the father. Since Christ's Father is THE Father he had no guilt of original sin and because of that could not have died at all had he not taken on the punishment due to the sins of the people on himself.

Here is an article about federal headship:

http://carm.org/federal-headship