Doctrines of Demons - 1 Tim. 4:1-2

[BobRyan]

The Word of God has more import than the logic of man.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

In 2Tim 3:16 Paul tells Timothy "ALL scripture is given by inspiration from God AND is to be used for doctrine".

Paul was not arguing in 1Tim 4 or in 2Tim 3 that to accept this or that part of God's word is to accept or promote "doctrines of demons".

Paul is arguing a consistent "sola scriptura" case i 1Tim 4 just as in 2Tim 3. That which is approved by God's Word (and no part of God's Word contradicts the other part of God's Word) - is to be gladly accepted.

The prediction in 1Tim 4 is that "in the latter times" some would come with NEW doctrines - those that they received from evil spirits. It does not say that reading this or that part of the Bible as the Word of God and then accepting it as valid - is already a doctrine of demons.

Paul speaks to future errors coming into the church.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Now see -- there is a well reasoned response.

My point is not that DHK differs with my understanding of this text or that text, this doctrine or that doctrine. My point is that DHK argues that to accept Lev 11 as valid is to follow doctrines of demons.

Let me get the posts for you...

Here is DHK's post where I first note a tendancy on this thread to refer to acceptance of Lev 11 - as acceptance of "doctrines of demons"

=============================== DHK posts

========================================= End post

After that post above - spend 3 posts detailing why we should not call Lev 11 "Doctrines of demons".j

Then DHK again repeats his claim that to follow Lev 11 as if it is a valid command of God for us today is a doctrine of demons...
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1645751&postcount=54

Very disingenuous Bob. In the above URL, I did not reference Lev.11 at all. The discussion centered on 1Tim.4:1-4. Deception will not get you any points here.

The post in your quote that you are referring to is this:

Originally Posted by DHK
This is exactly what is meant by doctrines of demons.
Your preference over another nations staple is not what drives you.
It is your church's command. That is the doctrine of demons. You can have the preference. That is up to you. Most in our society do have the preference you mentioned. But others, on other parts of the world do not share the same preference, and there is nothing in the Bible that prohibits them from enjoying those things that you have mentioned.

God himself declared: Every creature is good and nothing to be refused.
You deny the basic and clear teaching of the Word of God, a doctrine of demons.

This is the post where you claim I have said to follow Lev.11 is a doctrine of demons. Did I say that Bob? What I said, is that when an organizations imposes a diet upon any group of people or tells them that they must abstain from certain foods, then that is a doctrine of demons. Now, Bob, I didn't say that, but the Lord did. He said it here:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1 Timothy 4:1)
Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:3)

Those religions or churches that command others to abstain from certain foods teach doctrines of demons. The Scriptures are clear, unbiased, and straightforward on this truth. There is no other way to take it.

As far as Lev.11 is concerned it is the Levitical law given to the Israelites that was done away with at the cross. These laws are not in the NT and there is no command anywhere in the NT given to Gentile Christians to keep such laws. In fact these laws were condemned in Acts 15, as the impositions of the Judaizers were condemned by the Apostles themselves.

When the SDA forbid their members to eat foods such as pork then they practice doctrines of demons. The Scriptures are clear. It is a matter of belief, not of debate.

 

[BobRyan]

This is the post where you claim I have said to follow Lev.11 is a doctrine of demons. Did I say that Bob? What I said, is that when an organizations imposes a diet upon any group of people or tells them that they must abstain from certain foods, then that is a doctrine of demons.

Yet you admit that Israel - as an organization - had this Lev 11 chapter stating that certain foods are unclean.

Yet you argue that any organization today (any church today) that accepts Lev 11 which defines "What is food" and "what may be eaten" and what may not - is teaching a doctrine of a demon by promoting Lev 11.

Where is the hard part on this one?

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.[/QUOTE]

1. Lev 11 was NOT written "in the latter times" NEITHER were God's people ignoring Lev 11 until "the Latter Times" rather the act of NOT eathing rats, cats dogs or bats is affirmed to be taking place in Acts 10 AFTER the cross as Peter said that even at that point in time POST cross he was not eating rats.

2. Acts 10 is not "the latter times".

3. Paul does not write to Timothy in 2Tim 3 "IN THE FUTURE when the NT is compiled THEN THAT scripture will be inspired by God and used for doctrine" as you seem to imagine.

Now, Bob, I didn't say that, but the Lord did...

As far as Lev.11 is concerned it is the Levitical law given to the Israelites that was done away with at the cross. These laws are not in the NT...

When the SDA forbid their members to eat foods such as pork then they practice doctrines of demons. The Scriptures are clear. It is a matter of belief, not of debate.

When SDAs point to Lev 11 as forbidding the eating of rats cats dogs and bats and claim that it is the Word of God and valid for today - you claim this is proclaiming and teaching -- doctrines of demons.

You are going to an extreme.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Steadfast Fred]

I am sorry if you don't see it, Bob. But 1 Timothy 4 tells us there are doctrines of demons and then proceeds to tell us what those doctrines of demons are... namely:

1. Forbidding to marry.
2. Commanding to abstain from meats.

Yes, the Word of God is for reproof, for doctrine, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

And Paul instructed the young Timothy that no food was to be refused if it was received with thanksgiving and prayer.

 

[BobRyan]

Fred - I do not claim that everyone will agree with my POV -- so differences of opinion welcomed.

In the text Paul does not say that no food is to be rejected as long as you pray over it.

Rather the text says that that food which is sanctified by the word of God ( a phrase DHK is usually careful to leave out of his posts) is to be eaten.

In 2Tim 3 Paul shows us clearly that the term "scripture" is primarily applied to the O.T. text and that it is to be used for doctrine.

2 Tim 3
14 You, however, continue in the things you have learned and become convinced of, knowing from whom you have learned them,
15 and that from childhood you have known thesacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God may be adequate, equipped for every good work


In NASB the OT text is said to be used "for teaching" in KJV "doctrine". By extension it also can apply to the NT text as well.

Thus Paul is not telling Timothy that flesh condemned by the OT is to be eaten "anyway". Rather he says that only that which is sanctified by the text of scripture is to be eaten.

Furthermore - Paul predicts that in the future - men will listen to demons and invent new doctrines - errors.

At no point does Paul suggest that the OT has not yet been written or that Lev 11 is some new error that will rise up and be accepted as God's Word.

In fact it is clear from Acts 10 that Peter and other Jewish Christians (at the very least) already accepted the validity of God's Word in Lev 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Yet you admit that Israel - as an organization - had this Lev 11 chapter stating that certain foods are unclean.

Israel was God's chosen nation in the OT, under the old covenant, in another dispensation, who have now been put aside for a time because they rejected the Messiah (John 1:11). Christians are not Israelites.

Yet you argue that any organization today (any church today) that accepts Lev 11 which defines "What is food" and "what may be eaten" and what may not - is teaching a doctrine of a demon by promoting Lev 11.

Israel is not a church. We are speaking of Christianity, but if you want to put yourself in the same class as Islam which also prohibits their people from eating pork, that would be fitting. It is a Satanic religion isn't it? The doctrine is a doctrine of demons.
BTW, both Muslims and Jews (or Israelites) have the same need. They need Christ; they need to be saved. One is not better than the other. They are both lost and need to be saved. There is only one way to be saved, and that is through Christ. Neither Islam nor Israel advocate that way. But all three: SDA, Islam, and Israel command their people to abstain from certain foods such as pork. Biblical Christianity does not. The doctrine is a doctrine of demons.

Where is the hard part on this one?

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Nothing hard about that at all. You simply need to believe and follow it.

1. Lev 11 was NOT written "in the latter times" NEITHER were God's people ignoring Lev 11 until "the Latter Times" rather the act of NOT eathing rats, cats dogs or bats is affirmed to be taking place in Acts 10 AFTER the cross as Peter said that even at that point in time POST cross he was not eating rats.

Peter, in Acts 10, was commanded to eat unclean animals, animals that were declared unclean in Lev.11. He was commanded to eat of those animals three times. Whether those animals were pigs, rats, cats, or other, does not matter. They were animals that were forbidden under Levitical law, and Peter was commanded three times to eat of them.

Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air. And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat. (Acts 10:12-13)
And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common. This was done thrice: and the vessel was received up again into heaven. (Acts 10:15-16)

2. Acts 10 is not "the latter times".

The latter times or days started with Acts chapter two:

But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: (Acts 2:16-17)

3. Paul does not write to Timothy in 2Tim 3 "IN THE FUTURE when the NT is compiled THEN THAT scripture will be inspired by God and used for doctrine" as you seem to imagine.

This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come. (2 Timothy 3:1)
--Though stated in the future tense Paul was speaking of the present time. We can see that by reading through the entire chapter wherein all the verbs are in the future and all are applicable. We come to verse 12:

Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. (2 Timothy 3:12)
--Did not that apply to Timothy? Of course it did. So did all the previous verses. He (as we still are) was living in the last days, and he would suffer persecution.

When SDAs point to Lev 11 as forbidding the eating of rats cats dogs and bats and claim that it is the Word of God and valid for today - you claim this is proclaiming and teaching -- doctrines of demons.

You are going to an extreme.

I didn't write the Bible; I am simply quoting it. It is a matter of belief and unbelief. What will you do with this passage. It is very clearly written:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: (1 Timothy 4:1-4)

 

[BobRyan]

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith...

That is NOT a statement about Peter (in Acts 10) and other Christians as well all holding to the OT text as the inspired word of God and believing it - and thus promoting doctrines of demons.

Rather it is a prediction about future events.

And it is not a statement that acceptance of what they had as "scripture" - the OT -- is in fact acceptance of doctrines of demons.

And it is not a prediction that any part of the OT that just so happens to be agreed to by muslims - becomes "doctrines of demons" as soon as Muslims agree to it.

"For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer" -- is an affirmation of the continued authority of the OT text of Scripture as the "Word of God" for NT saints.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Israel was God's chosen nation in the OT, under the old covenant, in another dispensation,

Kinda like we view the church today -- as it turns out.

DHK said 111*11=
Peter, in Acts 10, was commanded to eat unclean animals, animals that were declared unclean in Lev.11.

1. He was told to "eat Christ's flesh" in John 6 (also condemned in Lev11). But he knew this was symbolic - of teaching - of the Gospel.

2. He was told not to eat the leaven of the pharisees in Matt 16 - and was later informed that this referred to the teaching of the pharisees not to literal leaven.

3. He was told to eat rats in Acts 10 -- and then explained THREE TIMEs (for those slow to get the point) that this was about "Calling no man unclean".

4. In the "Eat whatsoever is set before you and ask no questions" text of the NT the point is made explicitly that the "question" or the "information" that is missing is "whether the meat was offerred to an idol" such that IF they do include that information then -- DO NOT eat it. (The key portion of the text DHK carefully avoids when referencing it)

5. At no point in all of scripture has "going to a gentile home" been taken to imply that anyone going there must literally eat rats.

That least debunks about half dozen rabbit trails that have been used to try and bring in the rat-roast idea to 1Tim 4 and Acts 10 ...

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith...

And your point is??
We are in the latter times--have been ever since the day of Pentecost. This is a pastoral epistle, and Paul was writing to Timothy giving him advice concerning order in his church at Ephesus. This was a part of it.

That is NOT a statement about Peter (in Acts 10) and other Christians as well all holding to the OT text as the inspired word of God and believing it - and thus promoting doctrines of demons.

It is a NT text that speaks to Christians. It is Paul writing to Timothy in a church context. Such churches that teach their members to abstain from certain foods are teaching doctrines of demons. Case closed. It is that simple.

Rather it is a prediction about future events.

Now this is an argument I have never heard before, not even from you. Are you running out of rebuttals? Is every statement that is made in the future tense a prophecy? That is pretty weak Bob. No this is no prediction. It is a statement of fact. How factual and forceful can Paul be when he emphatically says:

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer. (1 Timothy 4:3-5)

There is nothing future in those verses. In fact some of those statements have verbs that use the past tense.
God HAS CREATED to be received. past tense.
Every creature of God IS good. present tense.
Nothing (is) to be refused. Present tense.
It IS sanctified by the Word. The sense is that it has already been done.

There is no prediction here Bob. It is no prophecy. These are commands that were relevant to Timothy and relevant to us.

And it is not a statement that acceptance of what they had as "scripture" - the OT -- is in fact acceptance of doctrines of demons.

This book was Paul writing to Timothy, pastor of the church at Ephesus, no keeping order in the church. This was part of his instruction which became inscripturated for our benefit. They are God's words to us, even as they were at that time Paul's words to Timothy.

And it is not a prediction that any part of the OT that just so happens to be agreed to by muslims - becomes "doctrines of demons" as soon as Muslims agree to it.

It is a doctrine of demons for the Bible states that it is, but that is in a Christian context. Islam is a Satanic religion. What this verse is speaking of is false teachers, those pretending to be Christians, and then teach that it is a Christian doctrine to abstain from certain foods. NO! It is not a Christian doctrine. It is a doctrine of demons.

"For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer" -- is an affirmation of the continued authority of the OT text of Scripture as the "Word of God" for NT saints.

Yes, dog meat, horse meat, and pork have all been sanctified by the Lord. When it is set before you give thanks for it. There is no food which God has not cleansed. To say that any food is unclean is to say that God has lied.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Fred - I do not claim that everyone will agree with my POV -- so differences of opinion welcomed.

In the text Paul does not say that no food is to be rejected as long as you pray over it.

Rather the text says that that food which is sanctified by the word of God ( a phrase DHK is usually careful to leave out of his posts) is to be eaten.

No, it does not say that Bob. Verse four qualifies reception on the condition "IF it be received WITH THANKSGIVING." Sanctification or setting apart is provided by both, the Word of God AND prayer. The Word of God that sets it apart is verse 4.

4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:

The Old Covenant Levitical law NEVER says "For EVERY creature of God IS GOOD, and NOTHING to be refused..." This is New Covenant Law and the New Covenant Scriptures under New covenant Dispensation.

No Jew under Levitical dietary law could ever say "EVERY creature....IS GOOD and "NOTHING to be refused IF it be received with thanksgiving"?

Every Jew under Levitical dietary law would have to say, "NOT every creature...IS GOOD but only that which is clean.."

Hence, God's Word has sanctified "EVERY creature" given as food! The idea of "refused" and "received" defines the context around the dinner table and that which is set before you as food. Remember, the man this is written unto is half Jew and half gentile and the congregation receiving this letter is a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Paul is speaking as an Apostle, inspired by God, thus communicating to them God's Word concerning various issues of which this is one. Verse 4 is God's Word that sets apart "EVERY CREATURE" as "CLEAN" or "GOOD" in regard to the dinner table as it is the dinner table where it is "received" or "refused" as food.

This statement is directed toward Timothy - half Jew and half Gentile and to the Ephesus Congregation mixed with Jews and Gentiles! No dietary Jew would ever use such langauge to a mixture of Jews and Gentiles.

In 2Tim 3 Paul shows us clearly that the term "scripture" is primarily applied to the O.T. text and that it is to be used for doctrine.

Look at the next verse:

1 Tim. 4:6 ¶ If thou put the brethren in remembrance of these things, thou shalt be a good minister of Jesus Christ, nourished up in the words of faith and of good doctrine, whereunto thou hast attained.


Paul tells his own readers to regard his writings as God's Word (1 Thes. 2:13; 2 Thes. 2:15;3:6).

Peter tells his readers to regard Paul's writings as "other scriptures" (2 Pet. 3:15-17).

Paul is providing New Testament Scripture - the Word of God - in verse 4 concerning the dinner table for Christians. The Word of God in verse 4 sanctifies "EVERY CREATURE" presented at the dinner table where it would be either rejected or received as food.

Furthermore - Paul predicts that in the future - men will listen to demons and invent new doctrines - errors.

Paul never uses the word "new" in this text. The charge is departure from "the faith." Paul describes two men in this same epistle who had already done this:

1 Tim. 1:19 Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck:
20 Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

Departure from the faith is not restricted to some time in the far future! Doctrines of demons is not something "new" or peculiar to the far future! The New Testament scriptures were the response to doctrines of demons already being spread. However, Paul is warning a young preacher to increasingly expect this in the future.

At no point does Paul suggest that the OT has not yet been written or that Lev 11 is some new error that will rise up and be accepted as God's Word.

In 1 Timothy 4:4 Paul is explicity rejecting Leviticus 11 as APPLICABLE under the New Covenant dispensation! He is not rejecting Leviticus 11 as Scripture any more than he is rejecting Leviticus 1-10 as Scripture but much of the book of Hebrews is rejecting Leviticus 1-10 as APPLICABLE under the new covenant just as 1 Tim. 4:4 is rejecting Leviticus 11 as APPLICABLE under the New covenant dispensation.

Paul is not rejecting any MORAL principles in Leviticus 1-11 as applicable! He is rejecting the PRACTICE of all ceremonial laws as applicable under the New Covenant administration. He is rejecting the WHOLE CEREMONIAL LAWS of the entire book of Leviticus as APPLICABLE under New Testament administration.

Did you get that Bob???? He is not rejecting any MORAL PRINCIPLES in the book of Leviticus but he is rejecting ALL CEREMONIAL LAWS - (1) sacrificial laws - Lev. 1-8; (2) ceremonial laws - Lev. 10-19; (3) administration of feasts (Lev. 23-25).

In fact it is clear from Acts 10 that Peter and other Jewish Christians (at the very least) already accepted the validity of God's Word in Lev 11.

It is clear they did UNTIL God revealed to Peter that such animals have now been CLEANSED what was formerly regarded by Jews as UNCLEAN! It is clear they did UNTIL God commanded Peter to rise and EAT what formerly was considered ceremonially defiled!

It is clear that Peter understood that such UNCLEAN animals were formerly regarded UNCLEAN only because they were designed by God to typically teach that gentiles were to be separated from SOCIALLY and the dinner table was the epitomy of SOCIAL unity! The book of Leviticus commanded the Jews to regard Gentiles UNCLEAN and did so in direct connection with the DIETARY LAW:

Lev. 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. 26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Take note that separation from unclean foods is directly connected with separation from gentiles or other nations! Hence, when God cleansed Gentiles he cleansed the foods that depicted them and therefore Peter and the rest of the Jewish Christians at jerusalem explicitly denied that the Levitical laws were applicable to Gentiles:


Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

Furthermore, Peter EATS with the Gentile Christians (Gal. 2:12) in direct violation of what formerly was the law of God to Jews (Lev. 20:24-26; with Acts 10:28). Hence, Acts 10:28 is based upon Old Testament Law directly dealing with food and gentiles (Lev. 20:24-26) and not upon false traditions of the Jews.

 

[WestminsterMan]

I am sorry if you don't see it, Bob. But 1 Timothy 4 tells us there are doctrines of demons and then proceeds to tell us what those doctrines of demons are... namely:

1. Forbidding to marry.
2. Commanding to abstain from meats.

Yes, the Word of God is for reproof, for doctrine, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

And Paul instructed the young Timothy that no food was to be refused if it was received with thanksgiving and prayer.

Jesus abstained from meats for 40 days. Did he follow a doctrine of demons? Complete and utter nonsense!

WM

 

[WestminsterMan]

ridicule is the weapon of first defense for those who have no other defense.

Less is more doc...less is more. You'll find this out when you start on your doctoral thesis. Well, if you are successful that is.

WM

 

[Steadfast Fred]

Jesus abstained from meats for 40 days. Did he follow a doctrine of demons? Complete and utter nonsense!

WM

Jesus did not abstain from eating because of someone commanding Him to. Big difference.

He chose to fast.

 

[BobRyan]

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith...

That is NOT a statement about Peter (in Acts 10) and other Christians as well all holding to the OT text as the inspired word of God and believing it - and thus promoting doctrines of demons.

Rather it is a prediction about future events.

And it is not a statement that acceptance of what they had as "scripture" - the OT -- is in fact acceptance of doctrines of demons.

And it is not a prediction that any part of the OT that just so happens to be agreed to by muslims - becomes "doctrines of demons" as soon as Muslims agree to it.

"For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer" -- is an affirmation of the continued authority of the OT text of Scripture as the "Word of God" for NT saints.

And your point is??
We are in the latter times--have been ever since the day of Pentecost.

Paul was predicting events in the future - not in the past.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Paul was not arguing that Lev 11 is a doctrine of a demon or that Peter's accetpance of Lev 11 as we see it stated in Acts 10 was a doctrine of a demon.

In fact in 2Tim 3:16 Paul argues that God's OT word is to be used for doctrine.

DHK said -
It is Paul writing to Timothy in a church context. Such churches that teach their members to abstain from certain foods are teaching doctrines of demons.

Wrong - again.

In 1Tim 4 Paul says that only that which is "sanctified by the Word" is valid for the saints.

Read the Bible.



Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Is a direct reference to the Lev 11 list of flesh foods which God created for that purpose and that is "Sanctified by the Word".

So no "rat roast".

Your rat, cat, dog, bat roast post speaks for itself.

DHK
Yes, dog meat, horse meat, and pork have all been sanctified by the Lord. .

Read your bible instead of clinging to man-made tradition "no matter what you read" in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Dr. Walter]

Less is more doc...less is more. You'll find this out when you start on your doctoral thesis. Well, if you are successful that is.

WM

Less is more when the less has substance! You have no substance. You have submitted nothing with substance.

As pointed out already, your rediculous example of Christ demonstrates you are without substance! First, Christ lived under the law whereas the cross is what did away with the ceremonial law. Second, the Bible nowhere prohibits anyone from fasting!

Your arguments are rediculous. Your position is rediculous and your "less" is rediculous!

 

[Dr. Walter]

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron; Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.






Paul was predicting events in the future - not in the past.

Are you serious????? Do you actually believe that no one in the past or in the present time when Paul wrote this had "departed from the faith"????? You might try reading chapter one about two fella's that are given by name!

Do you actually believe that "doctrine of demons" had no existence in Paul's day????????? What drug are you on?

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Paul was not arguing that Lev 11 is a doctrine of a demon or that Peter's accetpance of Lev 11 as we see it stated in Acts 10 was a doctrine of a demon.

Leviticus is named "Leviticus" because it is the laws of the Levitical priests and the whole ceremonial laws attached to the Levitical Priesthood and temple. Clean and unclean have to do with CEREMONIAL defilement and cleansing! The Levitical Preisthood, the temple ceremonies, and the ceremonial laws of defilement and clean have been abolished by the cross. You cannot pick and choose which law of clean and unclean to practice as they come in one package - the Old Covenant Package.

Wrong - again.

In 1Tim 4 Paul says that only that which is "sanctified by the Word" is valid for the saints.

Read the Bible.

It is you that needs to read the Bible - How about the next verse - verse 6 - as Paul was writing by inspiration and that means verse 4 is "the word of God" that sanctifies "EVERY CREATURE" and is the commandment given by God concerning this subject that Timothy would do well to heed!

 

[Dr. Walter]

Jesus abstained from meats for 40 days. Did he follow a doctrine of demons? Complete and utter nonsense!

WM

What is complete and utter nonsense is your logic! Jesus was a jew born under the ceremonial law of Moses. Second, Jesus was VOLUNTARILY fasting! Third, the cross is what abolished the ceremonial laws (Col 2:14-16: Heb. 8-10) and your example occurred prior to the cross. Fourth, there was no specific revelation to the Christian Jews concerning God having cleansed "EVERY CREATURE" until Acts 10.

Look, you havent provided any rational or biblical responses to the evidences already placed before you and I don't think you will - BECAUSE YOU CAN'T! So you are going to play your little game of hide and seek. What you are illustrating vividly is 1 Tim. 4:2 is true concerning those who embrace this doctrine of demons. A conscience that is "seared" by doctrines of demons cannot be penetrated with truth.

 

[Dr. Walter]

So no "rat roast".

Your rat, cat, dog, bat roast post speaks for itself.

We have proved that Peter's words in Acts 10:28 is backed up by scripture and explicit scripture that is directly connected with the dietary law:

Lev. 20:24 But I have said unto you, Ye shall inherit their land, and I will give it unto you to possess it, a land that floweth with milk and honey: I am the LORD your God, which have separated you from other people.
25 Ye shall therefore put difference between clean beasts and unclean, and between unclean fowls and clean: and ye shall not make your souls abominable by beast, or by fowl, or by any manner of living thing that creepeth on the ground, which I have separated from you as unclean. {creepeth: or, moveth}
26 And ye shall be holy unto me: for I the LORD am holy, and have severed you from other people, that ye should be mine.

Now, bob, has God separated Israel from "other people"? If you are not a Israelite what are you Bob? - A Gentile! Jews were to be separated from the Gentiles and this is said twice with the law of clean and unclean beasts sandwiched right in between. Hence, Peter did have Biblical grounds to say:

Acts 10:28 And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean.

The jew could not socialize intimately with the Gentile and nothing is more intimate outside of marriage than visiting in their home and eating at their table. They were forbidden to marry the Gentile.

Acts 21:25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.


Furthermore, Peter EATS with the Gentile Christians (Gal. 2:12) in direct violation of what formerly was the law of God to Jews (Lev. 20:24-26; with Acts 10:28). Hence, Acts 10:28 is based upon Old Testament Law directly dealing with food and gentiles (Lev. 20:24-26) and not upon false traditions of the Jews.

 

[DHK]

Paul was predicting events in the future - not in the past.

It is a pastoral epistle. Paul also speaks to Timothy as a son.
I can tell my son: "Son you will meet many evil men in this world."
The verb is future. It is not a prediction; not a prophecy, but a fact. No person with any sense would take this passage as a prediction. Paul is stating facts. The fact is:

For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: (1 Timothy 4:4)
--No future tense. It is a declarative statement in the present tense.

1 Timothy 4:1-5 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

The latter times started with the Day of Pentecost and continues to this day. The SDA forbids certain foods actively practicing or teaching doctrines of demons, as there were in that day as well.

Paul was not arguing that Lev 11 is a doctrine of a demon or that Peter's accetpance of Lev 11 as we see it stated in Acts 10 was a doctrine of a demon.

In 1Tim.4 there is no reference to Lev.11. We have the all encompassing reference that all foods are clean. No reference to the Levitical diet is made at all.
In Acts 10 Peter was commanded to eat of meat that was forbidden in Lev.11, with a command that those meats that were once unclean are now clean. Do not call unclean what I have cleansed, the Lord said. Yet you disobey the Lord in this matter daily.

In fact in 2Tim 3:16 Paul argues that God's OT word is to be used for doctrine.

"Judas went out and hung himself."
"Go and do thou likewise."
"What thou doest do quickly."

Yes, we are to use all the Word of God for doctrine, just as one person used the above verses to find the will of God for his life. Will you do the same? That is the same way that you butcher the Scripture.

Wrong - again.

I said:

It is Paul writing to Timothy in a church context. Such churches that teach their members to abstain from certain foods are teaching doctrines of demons.
--This is not wrong; it is fact. Demonstrate this to be wrong. Go to any NT Survey Book. Look it up. Find out what the purpose of Paul was.
Now when Paul comes to chapter four he writes to Timothy about false teachers giving heed to seducing spirits and teaching doctrines of demons. Then he gives two examples of what those doctrines are:
1. Forbidding to marry.
2. Commanding to abstain from certain foods.

In 1Tim 4 Paul says that only that which is "sanctified by the Word" is valid for the saints.

He says all food is sanctified by the word. "for it is sanctified by the word." That is a statement of fact. It already has been.

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.

Is a direct reference to the Lev 11 list of flesh foods which God created for that purpose and that is "Sanctified by the Word".

You are imagining things. There is no reference to Lev.11. The Lord says that all foods are are sanctified. All foods are clean. And that is exactly what he told Peter in Acts 10. In fact he told him that three times.

So no "rat roast".

Your rat, cat, dog, bat roast post speaks for itself.

Think a bit for yourself Bob. Here you are posting on the WWW, where those of all different nations can read what you post. You are telling them, trying to teach them not to eat of the above foods that you mentioned. What God declared to be clean you have declared to be unclean and not to eat. You have just taught doctrines of demons right on this board. You have offended people who do partake in such diets by your own offense, your own demonic doctrine, by telling them that their diet is wrong. It is your doctrine that is demonic according to 1Tim.4:1-5, but you refuse to acknowledge it.

Read your bible instead of clinging to man-made tradition "no matter what you read" in the Bible.

I read it, study it, and memorize it.
I know whereof I speak. You are teaching not only doctrines of demons but heresy. You need to change your ways.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Acts 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

There can be no question that God is directly referring to Leviticus 11 and the law of clean and unclean animals and in particular to all those animals condemned as unclean.

There can be no question that God directly commands Peter to no longer call unclean what God hath cleansed and God is speaking directly concering all those things formerly called unclean in Leviticus 11.

God has revoked the law of unclean concerning the animals in Leviticus 11 and forbids Christians to "call" such things "common" or unclean!



Acts 11:6 Upon the which when I had fastened mine eyes, I considered, and saw fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
7 And I heard a voice saying unto me, Arise, Peter; slay and eat.
8 But I said, Not so, Lord: for nothing common or unclean hath at any time entered into my mouth.
9 But the voice answered me again from heaven, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.


Three times God commanded Peter to no longer "call" such animals unclean because God "hath cleansed" them!

The SDA and other ascetic religions are in direct violation of God's command as they continue to "call...common" or unclean what God explicitly forbids to be called unclean!

God not only commanded him to "EAT" such but commanded him to no longer "CALL" such unclean! Those who continue to "CALL" such unclean are in direct violation of God's Word.