I have a sincere question about Calvinism - (please no fighting)...

[Amy.G]

More accurately, I believe God gives new birth, you believe man births himself.

This is not a minor issue. One is the Gospel, the other is not.

How many times are you going to call non-cals unsaved? I wish a moderator would stop this.

 

[Amy.G]

OK, in what part of the country?

http://www.barna.org/barna-update/article/5-barna-update/196-evangelism-is-most-effective-among-kids?q=salvation+age

Most Christians Were Young When Saved

For years, church leaders have heard the claim that nearly nine out of ten Christians accept Jesus as their savior before the age of 18. If that statistic was accurate in the past, it no longer depicts U.S. society. The current Barna study indicates that nearly half of all Americans who accept Jesus Christ as their savior do so before reaching the age of 13 (43%), and that two out of three born again Christians (64%) made that commitment to Christ before their 18th birthday. One out of eight born again people (13%) made their profession of faith while 18 to 21 years old. Less than one out of every four born again Christians (23%) embraced Christ after their twenty-first birthday. Barna noted that these figures are consistent with similar studies it has conducted during the past twenty years.

 

[TC]

If all of mankind is being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve and are born "punished", then why would God punish them further by never loving them and never offering them the gift of His grace?

The reprobates are punished twice, it would seem according to Calvinism. One can just as easily say that the reprobates are punished twice according to free-willism.

The are punished merely BY being born. They are born destined for hell because of Adam and Eve and predestined for hell because they are the non-elect or the reprobates. If God looked from eternity past down the annals of time and elected those that he saw had faith (which is exactly what the free-willers I know believe) then creates those he sees will not have faith anyway, does that not predestine those who will not have faith to hell? It sure seems that way to me.

And they are punished FOR being born this way because when they die they will spend an eternity in hell for something that was pre-ordained for them to do. In other words, they were predestined to be born a punished reprobate and to be punished for all eternity for being born punished. If God creates those who he knows will not have faith, are they not pre-ordained to die in their sins as well? Does God just create them and hope that he is wrong and that they will just exercise their free will and believe him in the end?

That makes no sense to me. It doesn't even fit with something as elementary as John 3:16 nor the Great Commission. Since no Calvinists I know believes the reprobate are punished twice, this statement means has nothing to do with reality.

If it's true that God will refuse to save the reprobates or the majority of the world and will only save the "elect" or the minority, then why would one bring a child into the world? To me, it would be like play Russian roulette, with your child's soul. The odds are, Calvinistically speaking, that the child born will be a reprobate and doomed for hell no matter WHAT the "elect" parent does to raise the child in the Christian faith.

Wouldn't someone who considers himself to be a member of the elect do a much GREATER good in adopting children that are already born and not taking the chance on bringing another reprobate into the world?

This is something that I cannot reconcile with the Bible. I would truly like a sincere answer from anyone who calls himself or herself a Calvinist as to how they reconciled their beliefs about the predestined elect and the unfortunate pre-destined hell-bound-from-birth reprobates with their decision on having their own biological children.

I am not looking to debate anyone and am not looking for a fight. I will NOT fight. I just am burdened and need an answer.

I really do not see way this should be more of a problem for Calvinists than it is for you.

Jesus said in Matthew 7
13Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (KJV)


It sure seems to me that Jesus is saying that most of the human race goes to hell. So, how can you have a kid not knowing if the child will be one of the many on the path to hell of one of the few that find life? Knowing this, would it not be better for the free-willer to adopt a child already living than to bring more into the world?

 

[Don]

But many Calvinists do not believe that. I fear that I have stirred up a hornets nest and may not get a non-debatable answer.

Um...probably not.

May I suggest you try PMing one or two (or more) of the professed Calvinists?

 

[Robert Snow]

It was both.

Correct. God just did for Pharaoh what he wanted done. He decided he wanted nothing to do with God or His people, so God gave him what he wanted!

 

[Robert Snow]

Did God love Jacob and hate Esau before either were born? My questions are for Scarlett.

If you think the word "hate" here is the same thing as we think of today, then Jesus violated His own word when he told His disciples to "hate their family."

Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.

 

[Robert Snow]

And the answer would be that God chose one to be a child of faith, and the other not, long before either could harden himself according to Skandelon's false teachings.

God chose one to be the child of promise, not a child of faith. Just look at Jacob's life and the life of most of his children. Surely you don't think their lives were lives of faith. Also you don't think that anyone outside of Jacob's children couldn't have become one of God's children, do you?

 

[Robert Snow]

Did God send a prophet to Sodom and Gomorrah? Tyre? Sidon? Christ said plainly that they would have repented if the works done in Judea had been done in them.

Did God send any prophets to Nineveh?

 

[Scarlett O.]

It sure seems to me that Jesus is saying that most of the human race goes to hell. So, how can you have a kid not knowing if the child will be one of the many on the path to hell of one of the few that find life? Knowing this, would it not be better for the free-willer to adopt a child already living than to bring more into the world?

Yes, I believe that narrow is the way and broad is the path to destruction. I believe that those who are saved will be in the minority.

Under Calvinism, as I understand it, most people are born doomed for hell without an opportunity for God's saving grace.

I see that most people will end up in hell, but not without being afforded an opportunity for salvation.

I am not trying to soften the blow of multitudes going to hell. Why does God create people knowing full well that some will never believe and end up in hell? Simple - that's His business.

I do not see, as a free-willer, the gift of God's saving grace being put into the hands of man by God loving the whole world and desiring that none should perish. God, in using His Holy Spirit to reveal Himself and his grace to people individually, does NOT give up His sovereignty nor His omniscience by affording them a decision to submit to the gift of His Lordship or to reject it.

I'll close here. After this many replies, I have not received an answer and my intent was not to challenge the nature of God nor to pound out the tenets of Calvinism, but to understand the decision-making of the Calvinist when it comes to bearing children.

I'll read if anyone else posts, but you don't have to.

 

[Robert Snow]

You preach a different Atonement than I preach. You preach a different gospel.

I've read dozens of your postings and I'm not convinced you preach any Gospel at all. In fact, you are a breed to yourself.

The only reason your ridiculous statements are allowed to stand is because the administration here shows favoritism toward Calvinism. If they were fair minded, they would either edit many of your statements or they would allow a level playing field. You make the outlandish statements you do because you take advantage of the situation here, not because you somehow are more bold than those who disagree with you.

 

[Iconoclast]

First, let me say this is something that is burdening me for personal reasons as there are about 4 young couples in my church who are embracing Calvinism. They are TERRIFIC young couples deeply entrenched in faith and evangelism and I love them very much. Two of the couples have children and the others eventually will. There is something that I would like to talk to them about, but I am afraid of offending them, so I must take the coward's way out and bring the question here.

I'd like to interject the question, not to stir up anything, but because I really would like to understand.

First, here is my understanding of the doctrines of grace and Calvinism. I've copied and pasted this from a Calvinistic site. The parts in red are the parts I cannot adhere to according to the totality of the scripture.



If all of mankind is being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve and are born "punished", then why would God punish them further by never loving them and never offering them the gift of His grace?

The reprobates are punished twice, it would seem according to Calvinism.

The are punished merely BY being born. They are born destined for hell because of Adam and Eve and predestined for hell because they are the non-elect or the reprobates.

And they are punished FOR being born this way because when they die they will spend an eternity in hell for something that was pre-ordained for them to do. In other words, they were predestined to be born a punished reprobate and to be punished for all eternity for being born punished.

That makes no sense to me. It doesn't even fit with something as elementary as John 3:16 nor the Great Commission.

If it's true that God will refuse to save the reprobates or the majority of the world and will only save the "elect" or the minority, then why would one bring a child into the world? To me, it would be like play Russian roulette, with your child's soul. The odds are, Calvinistically speaking, that the child born will be a reprobate and doomed for hell no matter WHAT the "elect" parent does to raise the child in the Christian faith.

Wouldn't someone who considers himself to be a member of the elect do a much GREATER good in adopting children that are already born and not taking the chance on bringing another reprobate into the world?

This is something that I cannot reconcile with the Bible. I would truly like a sincere answer from anyone who calls himself or herself a Calvinist as to how they reconciled their beliefs about the predestined elect and the unfortunate pre-destined hell-bound-from-birth reprobates with their decision on having their own biological children.

I am not looking to debate anyone and am not looking for a fight. I will NOT fight. I just am burdened and need an answer.
​

http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html

God has in the bible chosen to work in and through covenant families who obey his word.
Children are eternal souls who God allows for His purpose. God is sovereign in opening and closing the womb. We are commanded to be anxious for nothing.

14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.

 

[Amy.G]

God has in the bible chosen to work in and through covenant families who obey his word.

What do you mean by "covenant families"?

 

[slave 4 Christ]

And by-the-by, could someone who does adhere to the tenets of Calvinsim please answer my original question?

I am seriously only curious, not seeking an argument about it.

Sister,
I have three children. No doubt I love them from the depths of my heart.

I also know that they are a gift from God. They are ultimately His.
God has created them for His good pleasure.
My children are God's to do with as He wills.
And since this is true. I also rest in this truth. "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Sis. Scarlett He is God. He will not do anything unjust. He will do right.
The problem develops when we tell God what is right, even as it pertains to our children.

Therefore, I give to God what was never mine to give in the first place, my children.

 

[Amy.G]

You preach a different gospel.

Here is the gospel that I believe and "preach".

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth.....

Believe what?
Believe this:
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



.......in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




That is the gospel. Anything else is to be accursed.

 

[Iconoclast]

What do you mean by "covenant families"?

14Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.

15And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth.

For example, we read in Psalm 103 that "the mercy of the LORD is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear Him, and His righteousness unto children�s children; to such as keep His covenant, and to those that remember His commandments to do them" (Ps. 103:17-18).

\

"But I will establish My covenant with you; and you shall go into the ark�you, your sons, your wife, and your sons' wives with you"(Gen. 6:18)

"Therefore keep the words of this covenant, and do them, that you may prosper in all that you do. All of you stand today before the LORD your God: your leaders and your tribes and your elders and your officers, all the men of Israel, your little ones and your wives�also the stranger who is in your camp, from the one who cuts your wood to the one who draws your water �that you may enter into covenant with the LORD your God, and into His oath, which the LORD your God makes with you today, that He may establish you today as a people for Himself, and that He may be God to you, just as He has spoken to you, and just as He has sworn to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. I make this covenant and this oath, not with you alone, but with him who stands here with us today before the LORD our God, as well as with him who is not here with us today" (Deut. 29:9-15).

Jesus confirmed God�s previous historic covenants: "Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers" (Rom. 15:8).

 

[jbh28]

First, let me say this is something that is burdening me for personal reasons as there are about 4 young couples in my church who are embracing Calvinism. They are TERRIFIC young couples deeply entrenched in faith and evangelism and I love them very much. Two of the couples have children and the others eventually will. There is something that I would like to talk to them about, but I am afraid of offending them, so I must take the coward's way out and bring the question here.​

Actually, I would say leave it alone. I'm not seeing much benefit in you addressing them. You say they are terrific couples so why bring up an issue such as this, especially with you being in disagreement with them.

If all of mankind is being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve and are born "punished", then why would God punish them further by never loving them and never offering them the gift of His grace?

You are punished for your own sins.

The reprobates are punished twice, it would seem according to Calvinism.

Not at all. The reprobate is punished once and that's in eternity in hell for his own sins.

The are punished merely BY being born. They are born destined for hell because of Adam and Eve and predestined for hell because they are the non-elect or the reprobates.

Again, the reprobate is punished for his own sins.

And they are punished FOR being born this way because when they die they will spend an eternity in hell for something that was pre-ordained for them to do.

They are still punished for their sins. Understanding how everything was preordained, yet we still make choices is hard to understand. However, hell is a place for sinners of their own sins.

In other words, they were predestined to be born a punished reprobate and to be punished for all eternity for being born punished.

No, punished for all eternity for sinning against a holy God.

If it's true that God will refuse to save the reprobates or the majority of the world and will only save the "elect" or the minority,

It's not and it's not a Calvinist teaching. Calvinists do not teach that some will come to Christ, yet be rejected because they are not elect.

then why would one bring a child into the world? To me, it would be like play Russian roulette, with your child's soul. The odds are, Calvinistically speaking, that the child born will be a reprobate and doomed for hell no matter WHAT the "elect" parent does to raise the child in the Christian faith.

Same thing either way. You can be the best parent in the world, yet your child rejects Christ. This isn't a really good argument.

Wouldn't someone who considers himself to be a member of the elect do a much GREATER good in adopting children that are already born and not taking the chance on bringing another reprobate into the world?

No

Christ vicariously died for the sins of God's chosen ones

John 10:11 ESV

I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep​

.
Acts 20:28

Pay careful attention to yourselves and to all the flock, in which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to care for the church of God, which he obtained with his own blood.​

The Elect of God are subject to Irresistible Grace. This does NOT mean they are forced against their will to come to faith in Christ. Irresistible Grace is "irresistible" because it achieves its purpose every time rather than because it overrides human volition. In regeneration, the Elect's corrupted and degenerate will is healed and reformed.

In other words, all those chosen by God will come to Him - John 6:37, Romans 8:29-30

The Lord elected a chosen people out of the mass of sinners to save.

Mark 13:20; Ephesians 1:4-5, 2 Timothy 2:10, John 10:16, Romans 8:29-30

Those not subject to Irresistible Grace (the reprobate) are thus passed by and abandoned to their sin and hatred of God. This does them no injustice, as they are by nature sinners. They only receive the just punishment for being in a state of rebellion against their Creator.

I'm not sure what you disagreed with here. Especially with the last sentence.​

 

[jbh28]

Here is the gospel that I believe and "preach".

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth.....

Believe what?
Believe this:
1 Corinthians 15:3-4 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:



.......in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.




That is the gospel. Anything else is to be accursed.

Finish the sentence of the gospel...

I Corinthians 15:3-5
For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures,*that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve.

That was the evidence that Jesus had risen like being buried was evidence that he died.


Anyway, back to the discussion...

 

[jbh28]

Puh-leeze! What I know is that the Gospel is simple, and by experience I've learned that theological tomes are only beneficial to those of like faith.

So I simply cut to the chase.

The main objection to Calvinism is man's view of himself. A man's view of Himself and his view of God are two sides of the same coin. This will also affect a man's view of the Atonement.

You preach a different Atonement than I preach. You preach a different gospel.

Aaron, lets be careful with our wording. Those that disagree with reformed theology do not teach a different gospel.

 

[Don]

Aaron, lets be careful with our wording. Those that disagree with reformed theology do not teach a different gospel.

JB - see, here's the thing: you're a calvinist. Aaron is more of a hyper-calvinist. He may not be able to be careful with his wording, because he takes the same things you believe in to a further extreme.

 

[jbh28]

JB - see, here's the thing: you're a calvinist. Aaron is more of a hyper-calvinist. He may not be able to be careful with his wording, because he takes the same things you believe in to a further extreme.

You bring out though a good point in regards to the OP. There are different levels of Calvinism. I'm a very low Calvinist. Some are very hyper. I don't take things to the extreme, or at least I don't try to.

To the OP, when we are talking to one that is a Calvinist(like the 4 couples in the church) don't assume they believe the same as some article found in a paper.