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Origin of Sin, Part Deux

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Brother Willis, I know you do not know this, but it is poor hermeneutics to develop a doctrine from one word in a VERY ambiguous passage. The passage is clear on what it does teach, but it does not teach what you want it to teach.

And your illustration of the calamity God has created in the US is EXACTLY what the Reformed believe about how God has ordained that evil be.

God must simply remove his good hand and evil and calamity will come to pass. Evil is the absence of goodness just as cold is the absence of warmth.

Remove goodness and the result will be evil.

That is how Lucifer became evil. God removed from him His divine goodness and evil inevitably followed.

It is the only way that Adam could sin- God had to remove his goodness in order for Adam to be able to sin- and without God's goodness Adam was destined to fall.

Ecclesiastes 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Amos 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the Lord has done it?

Bro. Luke,

My biggest problem with this theology is that it ultimately puts the cause of sin squarely in God's lap, therefore making Him the Author of sin. In this theology, we are nothing more than "puppets on His strings", robots that He winds, and do everything that He tells us to do. I guess that every outfit you wear, God foreordained them from "eternity past", and when you wanted steak, and He foreordained chicken, you had chicken. You see what I am getting at? You have taken this theology to the extreme. I have a feeling that a majority of your DoG Brethern will not follow along with you on this, because they haven't "chimed" in on this thread.

We can not do one thing on our own, but God has "ordered" everything that will ever happen. We can't even pick out a pair of shoes!! God has to watch over us and will not let us do one thing on our own!

If someone blows their brains out with a .38, that was for His glory!! If someone beheads a US soldier for their beliefs(believing that by beheading people will give them special favor in heaven), that is for God's glory!! If someone takes His name in vain, that is for His glory!! If someone molests an innocent baby, that's for His glory!! If someone "shimmies"(undresses) around a pole for money, that is for His glory!! If someone takes the pulpit, and they are one of Satan's ministers(and he has them, too) and deceives that flock, that is for His glory!! If someone gets slammed, then plows into a church bus and kills 27 people(this actually happened in Kentucky), that is for His glory!!

You see where I am going with this?? You are taking this to the EXTREME, Brother!!

i am I AM's!!

Willis
 
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Luke2427

Active Member
I am neither Calvinistic nor Arminian. I get my theology from the Bible as many others do. I dare say that no two men agree with each other on all things. Having said that let's look at the Scripture you gave.

1. There is no other God but Jehovah.
2. Speaking to Israel he tells them that he is the one that "equips" them.
3. He repeats that there is no other God but him.
4. He forms light and he forms darkness--a reference to creation.
5. He makes things well, and brings about calamity (natural disasters I would presume).
6. Yes, God does all these things. We all agree on these things. None of them attribute evil to God. None of them even hint that God would be the author of evil, or ordain or decree evil. Nothing in that verse comes remotely close to teaching that.

1. God declares all things from the beginning to the end--his omniscience.
2. His counsel shall stand. Of course: He is God. He is sovereign.
3. His purposes will be accomplished. How can it be otherwise?
There is nothing here to suggest that anything evil can be attributed to God; that God decrees evil; that God is the author of evil or ordains it.

All of us agree that Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world, which this verse teaches. So we have no argument here.

Young's literal puts it this way:

All things hath Jehovah wrought for Himself, And also the wicked worketh for a day of evil. (Proverbs 16:4)
--Not so cut and dry now is it?

Perhaps the NET Bible puts it best.
The LORD works everything for its own ends
even the wicked for the day of disaster. (NET)

The wicked will indeed face a day of judgment (disaster for them), but why? Because they chose it. The wicked works for a day of evil, instead of choosing Christ. All his works are evil. Their end will certainly be evil, but the NT sheds more light on this truth then the OT gives us. One cannot isolate a verse of poetry like this without gaining truth from other parts of the Bible.

Quite correct. The clear are the truths presented in the NT.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (John 3:18)

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. (John 3:36)
--That is what is clear.

Free will is taught over and over and over again.

I have answered this objection before.
These are the words of Job. Yes they are inspired, but they are Job's words, not God's words. There is a big difference.
God himself removed the hedge. God himself gave the permission; allowed Satan to afflict Job. Nothing could be done to Job without the express permission of God. Satan had to have permission from God. Job had no idea what was happening in heaven when he responded in this way. God gave Satan permission to afflict Job. This point must be conceded.

That is because Job did not know what was going on in heaven. So how could he say that. We also don't know what is happening in heaven right now. Job spoke as much as he knew, but it wasn't accurate. What was accurate was that God gave permission to Satan. The first chapter is very clear about that. That is what it teaches--God allowed Satan to afflict Job.

God allowed Satan to afflict Job, and yes he had a purpose in it, and knew that his faith, though it be tried as fire would be found to the praise and honor and glory to the Lord. It is the will of God that all Christians God. God does not ordain or decree evil to happen. He is not the author of it. But he allows it to happen.

"In all this Job did not charge God foolishly"

Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.

Gen. 45:8, “Now, therefore, it was not you who sent me here, but God; and He has made me a father to Pharaoh and lord of all his household and ruler over all the land of Egypt.”

Rev 17:17 For God has put it into their hearts to carry out His purpose by being of one mind and handing over their royal power to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Bro. Luke,

My biggest problem with this theology is that it ultimately puts the cause of sin squarely in God's lap, therefore making Him the Author of sin.

It does not matter what your problem is. That is TOTALLY irrelevant. What matters is what God's Word says.
And I am afraid you are completely ignoring it.

Now your problem can be solved very easily by you doing two things:
1. Abandon your philosophies and trust the Word of God. This requires faith. You must say, "God, it does not matter what I feel. It does not matter what I think. What matters is what you said. You are God and I am not. I TRUST you."

2. Understand that God willed for evil to exist but HIS motive for it was perfect and holy and wonderful. Therefore, he is not sinning by willing that sin should exist. We see this clearly in the greatest sin of all time- the murder of the Son of God.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.


In this theology, we are nothing more than "puppets on His strings", robots that He winds, and do everything that He tells us to do.

That's not true. But if it were true it would be God's prerogative.
But the fact of the matter is that man is free to come and go as he pleases and he does exactly as he wills all day every day. He has a will and he uses it. He makes choices constantly.

But in a mysterious way the Bible makes it clear that while man does exactly what he wants he ALSO does exactly what God wants. But man's motive and God's motive are not the same for the same deeds.

Joseph said, "You meant it for evil but God meant it for good."

That's the way it works. I don't have to understand it. I just have to believe it because God said it. If God said it, that ought to be enough for you. And he CLEARLY said it numerous times.

All you need to do is YIELD to it. Let him be God and his Word be true.

That you are not doing this is plain seeing as how you are abusing the passage in Job to MAKE it say what you WANT to believe.


You have taken this theology to the extreme. I have a feeling that a majority of your DoG Brethern will not follow along with you on this, because they haven't "chimed" in on this thread.

All Calvinists believe what I am purporting. I dare say there is not one on this board who would disagree with anything I am saying in this post.

We can not do one thing on our own,

We do what we want every hour of the day. But that NO being can do anything ON ITS OWN is abundantly clear. All power is God's. The power to do anything, even breathe, comes from God. So NO, we cannot do anything on our own.

If someone blows their brains out with a .38, that was for His glory!!

Deut 32:39 See now that I, even I, am He, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

"It is appointed unto man once to die."

If someone beheads a US soldier for their beliefs(believing that by beheading people will give them special favor in heaven), that is for God's glory!!

Romans 11:36 "For of him and through him and to him are all things."

Romans 8:28 "God worketh all things together for good to them that love God who are the called according to his purpose."

I Timothy 4:6 "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand."

If someone takes His name in vain, that is for His glory!! If someone molests an innocent baby, that's for His glory!!

Proverbs 16:4 "The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil."

If someone "shimmies"(undresses) around a pole for money, that is for His glory!! If someone takes the pulpit, and they are one of Satan's ministers(and he has them, too) and deceives that flock, that is for His glory!! If someone gets slammed, then plows into a church bus and kills 27 people(this actually happened in Kentucky), that is for His glory!!

Isa 45:5-7 I am the Lord, and there is no other, besides Me there is no God; I equip you, though you do not know me, that people may know, from the rising of the sun and from the west, that there is none besides Me; I am the Lord, and there is no other. I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

You see where I am going with this?? You are taking this to the EXTREME, Brother!!

Yes. It is based FULLY on emotion and NONE on Scripture.

You can't BEAR to think of things a certain way so it does not matter what the Bible says about it.

But if you will calm down and think with your rational mind and your spiritual mind and understand that God has a wonderful, eternal purpose for all things, even the bad ones, and that no tragedy is random but that God planned it for a glorious purpose as is the case with the greatest of tragedies (the brutal murder of God's Son)- then you will begin to see the light on this matter.

Acts 4:27-28 For truly in this city there were gathered together against Your holy servant Jesus, whom You anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever Your hand and Your plan had predestined to take place.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Will someone just win this debate with an Arial Black font size 7 post already!
 

Amy.G

New Member
Does this mean I win?? Yaaay!!

Yes! You win!
1.gif




The person who YELLS the loudest wins!!!!!
 

quantumfaith

Active Member
Does this mean I win?? Yaaay!!

Willis,

You are correct (moreso). You are not irrelevant, nor is your interpretation of the meaning and message of God and His word.

Luke is correct in one assertion. God CAN do whatever pleases him. But as is obvious some of us disagree strongly with how Luke interprets God, his actions and attributes through the lens of his theology.

It is precisely logical and coherent to assert if God "ordains" everything, then the responsibility for sin does indeed "fall squarely in his lap". Which is what Luke asserts, and he is being consistent in that position. It should also be noted that many "reformed theologians" wrestle with that idea and do not go to that point of assigning the responsiblity of sin to God.

Stay strong, courageous and confident.

Mercy, peace and love in abundance.
 
Willis,

You are correct (moreso). You are not irrelevant, nor is your interpretation of the meaning and message of God and His word.

Luke is correct in one assertion. God CAN do whatever pleases him. But as is obvious some of us disagree strongly with how Luke interprets God, his actions and attributes through the lens of his theology.

It is precisely logical and coherent to assert if God "ordains" everything, then the responsibility for sin does indeed "fall squarely in his lap". Which is what Luke asserts, and he is being consistent in that position. It should also be noted that many "reformed theologians" wrestle with that idea and do not go to that point of assigning the responsiblity of sin to God.

Stay strong, courageous and confident.

Mercy, peace and love in abundance.

Bro. Quant,

Thank you ever so much for those kind words! I can honestly say this; "I do not go into these thread to try to win them." I want to gather all the info I can gather from both sides, compare them in the light of His Word, and ask and beg Him for His knowledge, and not mine....IOW, "Dear Lord, help me to rightly divide Thy Word!" In these debates, heated as they do get, they cause me to dig deeper than even I thought I could dig. This is always a GOOD THING!! I do not post anything to "goad" my DoG Brethern, but I want to hear(or "see" in case of BB) what they have to say.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Hey Bro Quant, lookie here------->:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Willis,

You are correct (moreso). You are not irrelevant, nor is your interpretation of the meaning and message of God and His word.

Luke is correct in one assertion. God CAN do whatever pleases him. But as is obvious some of us disagree strongly with how Luke interprets God, his actions and attributes through the lens of his theology.

It is precisely logical and coherent to assert if God "ordains" everything, then the responsibility for sin does indeed "fall squarely in his lap". Which is what Luke asserts, and he is being consistent in that position. It should also be noted that many "reformed theologians" wrestle with that idea and do not go to that point of assigning the responsiblity of sin to God.

Stay strong, courageous and confident.

Mercy, peace and love in abundance.

Yet another post based fully upon assumption and feeling which totally ignores Scripture presented and does not even bother to appeal to a single passage.

There is a reason for this continued pattern.

Scripture teaches the exhaustive Sovereignty of God. It does not appeal to our human nature which likes to think we are completely free and no force outside of ourselves has ANYTHING to do with why we do what we do.

Nor is it an easy pill to swallow that God has a purpose for all things, including the bad ones.

So we just feel our way through theology.

Who cares that the Bible teaches what we do not like- what does not make us feel good?

But it does. And it matters- not what we feel; what we have a problem with is TOTALLY irrelevant.

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...."
"Let God be true and every man a liar."

The exhaustive Sovereignty of God and his decreed purposes in the deeds of all men, even in the deeds of wicked men can be proven from almost ANY book of the Bible.

Take Proverbs for example:

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.


Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
Yet another post based fully upon assumption and feeling which totally ignores Scripture presented and does not even bother to appeal to a single passage.

There is a reason for this continued pattern.

Scripture teaches the exhaustive Sovereignty of God. It does not appeal to our human nature which likes to think we are completely free and no force outside of ourselves has ANYTHING to do with why we do what we do.

Nor is it an easy pill to swallow that God has a purpose for all things, including the bad ones.

So we just feel our way through theology.

Who cares that the Bible teaches what we do not like- what does not make us feel good?

But it does. And it matters- not what we feel; what we have a problem with is TOTALLY irrelevant.

"The heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked...."
"Let God be true and every man a liar."

The exhaustive Sovereignty of God and his decreed purposes in the deeds of all men, even in the deeds of wicked men can be proven from almost ANY book of the Bible.

Take Proverbs for example:

Proverbs 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, [is] from the LORD.

Proverbs 16:4 The LORD hath made all [things] for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.


Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap; but the whole disposing thereof [is] of the LORD.

Proverbs 19:21 [There are] many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand.


Proverbs 20:24 Man's goings [are] of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?
Luke I went through similar verses that you posted before. It seems that you want to force your interpretation into each one of these verses not giving consideration to the possibility that they could have a different meaning, a different interpretation then the one you are assigning to them. Perhaps further study is needed to ascertain what is really being said in such Scriptures. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Luke I went through similar verses that you posted before. It seems that you want to force your interpretation into each one of these verses not giving consideration to the possibility that they could have a different meaning, a different interpretation then the one you are assigning to them. Perhaps further study is needed to ascertain what is really being said in such Scriptures. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself.

No sir. What you did mot recently was force the last verses of James to say something that they did not even come close to saying.

Before that, if I recall, you abused the passage in Job forcing the idea of allowance where it is not at all applicable just to suit your theology.

The Bible has no contradictions- on this you are right. And the Bible is clear.

God has set his throne in the heavens and rules over ALL.
Nothing happens apart from his purposes.
This is the consistent theme of Scripture.

You must abuse ambiguous passages while ignoring a superabundance of unambiguous passages to come to this nameless theology you adhere to.
 

Amy.G

New Member
Perhaps further study is needed to ascertain what is really being said in such Scriptures. We know that the Bible does not contradict itself.

Yes. I think it would benefit Luke to have more "training". This is why laymen shouldn't be allowed to expound the scriptures. :laugh: Where have I heard that before?
 

DHK

<b>Moderator</b>
No sir. What you did mot recently was force the last verses of James to say something that they did not even come close to saying.

Before that, if I recall, you abused the passage in Job forcing the idea of allowance where it is not at all applicable just to suit your theology.

The Bible has no contradictions- on this you are right. And the Bible is clear.
The message in Job is clear. You won't accept it.
It is clear that God removed the hedge around Job.
It is clear the God granted permission to Satan to afflict Job, and he did it more than once.
It is clear that Satan could only do as much as God permitted Satan to do.

What else is clear (and this you refuse to see), is that the words of Job, though inspired, are not accurate concerning God. Job does not have insight into the workings of God and Satan. How would he know what goes on in heaven? You don't have that solution do you?
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Yes. I think it would benefit Luke to have more "training". This is why laymen shouldn't be allowed to expound the scriptures. :laugh: Where have I heard that before?

I do not know.

Frankly it sounds like your typical misrepresentation and vilification of me.

This is a fallacious argument.

It is called "poisoning the well". It is what you and webdog do in the majority of your posts.

Poisoning the Well - Presenting negative information about a person before he/she speaks so as to discredit the person's argument.

1. Example: Frank is pompous, arrogant, and thinks he knows everything. So, let's hear what Frank has to say about the subject.
2. Example: Don't listen to him because he is a loser.

It is also:
# Straw Man Argument - Producing an argument about a weaker representation of the truth and attacking it.

1. Example: The government doesn't take care of the poor because it doesn't have a tax specifically to support the poor.
2. Example: We know that evolution is false because we did not evolve from monkeys.
 

Luke2427

Active Member
The message in Job is clear. You won't accept it.
It is clear that God removed the hedge around Job.
It is clear the God granted permission to Satan to afflict Job, and he did it more than once.
It is clear that Satan could only do as much as God permitted Satan to do.

What else is clear (and this you refuse to see), is that the words of Job, though inspired, are not accurate concerning God. Job does not have insight into the workings of God and Satan. How would he know what goes on in heaven? You don't have that solution do you?

Listen to it DHK:

"In all this Job did not charge God foolishly."

That is what the Word of God says about Job's comment, "The Lord hath taken away."


Eccl 7:13-14 Consider the work of God: who can make straight what He has made crooked? In the day of prosperity be joyful, and in the day of adversity consider: God has made the one as well as the other, so that man may not find out anything that will be after him.

THAT is what God's Word teaches. You do not accept the Word of God. You accept only your tradition and try to FORCE the Word of God into its mold.

But the Word of God is clear whether you are willing to see it or not.
 

Amy.G

New Member
I do not know.

Frankly it sounds like your typical misrepresentation and vilification of me.

This is a fallacious argument.

It is called "poisoning the well". It is what you and webdog do in the majority of your posts.
Luke you are too young to have such a poor memory. You have stated multiple times that people (only the ones who disagree with you) need to get formal education so that they can understand Calvinisim and scripture. So don't pretend like you've never said that.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Yes. I think it would benefit Luke to have more "training". This is why laymen shouldn't be allowed to expound the scriptures. :laugh: Where have I heard that before?

I thought the Brother is getting his advanced training from Liberty.....Aint that one o urin learnin centers?:laugh:
 

Luke2427

Active Member
Luke you are too young to have such a poor memory. You have stated multiple times that people (only the ones who disagree with you) need to get formal education so that they can understand Calvinisim and scripture. So don't pretend like you've never said that.

Still true to form.

I did not say that. You cannot BUT misrepresent me.

I said that Calvinism requires a certain amount of intellectual and spiritual maturity to be able to grasp.

And if YOU will recall I also said that about Arminianism.

All of you would do well to learn from Skandelon. He makes fine arguments and has a solid grasp on theology.

He is certainly NOT a Calvinist but he has a higher level of intellectual maturity than most, if not ALL, of those of you who have this new, made-up, nameless theology which has roots neither in Scripture nor Church History.
 
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