• Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Age of Accountability

Status
Not open for further replies.

Zenas

Active Member
Well, the one fault here is how can a child receive Christ if they don't know who or what they are putting their faith in?
Maybe they can have an imperfect understanding, like you said to webdog in Post 40.
So if they cannot fully comprehend what they are doing, then they are not truly saved.
Must they fully comprehend? And fully comprehend as compared to whom? I have a fair understanding of the gospel but compared to some of the people on this board my understanding is imperfect. By the way, Ann, "truly saved" is a redundancy. You are either saved or you are not. And being "truly saved" doesn't make you any more saved than just plain old being saved.
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Well, then they go to hell.

But I do think that God can allow an infant or a person who is mentally disabled to have faith. Maybe it's not the perfectly adult faith but it is the faith that matters none-the-less.
In the Augustinian model they would have to. That is one reason I do not hold to that.
 

Jarthur001

Active Member
In the Augustinian model they would have to. That is one reason I do not hold to that.

You don't hold to it, because you don't like the outcome???:confused: You want to write your own ending?

Maybe it's better to go with the Bible. Crazy idea I know.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Maybe they can have an imperfect understanding, like you said to webdog in Post 40. Must they fully comprehend? And fully comprehend as compared to whom? I have a fair understanding of the gospel but compared to some of the people on this board my understanding is imperfect. By the way, Ann, "truly saved" is a redundancy. You are either saved or you are not. And being "truly saved" doesn't make you any more saved than just plain old being saved.

I agree. See, I say "truly saved" because so many use the tag "saved" to say that they walked the aisle or they raised their hand but they actually did not become a new creation because there was no heart change.

I have absolutely no knowledge as to whether this is right or not but it makes sense to me - that God created us with enough knowledge to be able to have faith if we are going to be saved. Even those who are born with very damaged brains would have a way to have a very simple faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. But I don't believe that they are saved then lose their salvation at a certain point then have to get it back again. I do think that once one is saved, they are saved forever.
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
We are born again by our faith in Christ. We must be able to know right from wrong, recognize we are sinners, and trust in Christ for salvation. An infant is incapable of that. How then is he born again?

There is a line from verse three of "There is a Fountain" that says,
"be saved to sin no more"
Who that has been born of the flesh, who, that is flesh had anything to do with that birth? Did you have to have faith to be born? Why would one think that if The Almighty Holy God was going to birth someone he would require the one being birthed to have anything to do with it. If our physical birth into this age is a type of our spiritual birth into the age to come would one require something from us that the other did not?
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
"be saved to sin no more."
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
Will this be absolutely true after the manifestation of the sons of God, being the sons of the resurrection OR will it not be true?

The hangup is in the dying and going somewhere instead of what the word teaches, all die in Adam and all shall be raised in Christ then the judgement.
 

freeatlast

New Member
No - no one can lose it. However, I do believe that God can do anything - including allowing a child to have faith.

If that is the case they have to lose it at age of accountability. You cannot have it both ways. it is clear what you are trying to do. because you cannot accept God as he is and this part of Him is hidden you are seeking to make up a method where you can still accept Him. We are to accept Him no matter what. That is what faith is not making up our own rules and conditions about God.
 

Winman

Active Member
Little children can have faith, Jesus said so.

Mat 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones WHICH BELIEVE IN ME, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Now, I don't know how old these children were, but I get the impression they were very young, perhaps 4 or 5 years old, but Jesus said they believed in him. So obviously a person can have faith at a very young age.
 

annsni

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter

If that is the case they have to lose it at age of accountability. You cannot have it both ways. it is clear what you are trying to do. because you cannot accept God as he is and this part of Him is hidden you are seeking to make up a method where you can still accept Him. We are to accept Him no matter what. That is what faith is not making up our own rules and conditions about God.


Why is it that they have to lose their faith at the age of accountability? I would agree with that if salvation was insufficient but if it's good enough to get anyone into heaven, it's good for life.



Winman, my children were all saved at 4 and 5 years old. My girls were all 4 when they, of their own voice, were ready. Each one told us quietly that they wanted Jesus in their hearts because they loved Him and wanted to be with Him forever. My son took a little longer and he was 5 when this happened. My two oldest are now 18 and almost 21 and they both have VERY strong walks with the Lord (strong enough to make me weep with joy) and the two little ones who are 8 and 10 just seem to really have it as well. I don't see it as a little "Jesus loves me, I wanna raise my hand" thing but a true saving faith that will carry them through life. I've gotta say, I'm one grateful mama. :)
 

percho

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
For by grace are ye saved through faith;

Would like for several to give an answer. What does through faith mean here and is the part that pertains to the babies?

I am assuming this is saying how one is saved.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Winman

Active Member
Why is it that they have to lose their faith at the age of accountability? I would agree with that if salvation was insufficient but if it's good enough to get anyone into heaven, it's good for life.



Winman, my children were all saved at 4 and 5 years old. My girls were all 4 when they, of their own voice, were ready. Each one told us quietly that they wanted Jesus in their hearts because they loved Him and wanted to be with Him forever. My son took a little longer and he was 5 when this happened. My two oldest are now 18 and almost 21 and they both have VERY strong walks with the Lord (strong enough to make me weep with joy) and the two little ones who are 8 and 10 just seem to really have it as well. I don't see it as a little "Jesus loves me, I wanna raise my hand" thing but a true saving faith that will carry them through life. I've gotta say, I'm one grateful mama. :)

That is wonderful Ann!
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
You don't hold to it, because you don't like the outcome???:confused: You want to write your own ending?

Maybe it's better to go with the Bible. Crazy idea I know.
What's crazy is taking Augustine's position as biblical truth, and not his understanding of it.

I don't hold to it because it is not biblical.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The reason I posted this question is that I am having a hard time making it all fit together. We can say children are innocent of sin (although not entirely free of sin). Mark 10:15. Therefore, we can assume that God takes these children to Heaven if they die. However, there comes a time when they lose their innocence and enter into the “age of accountability.” This does not happen overnight but will often take a few years. Yet there must come an instant in time when God no longer regards that child as innocent. It can’t happen gradually like coming to the age of accountability—the child either goes to Heaven or he does not. He could die on Feb. 11 and go to Heaven, but on Feb. 12 he would go to Hell unless he had previously received Christ.

That being the case, and it must be if we believe in an age of accountability, it would seem we should encourage very young children to receive Christ even if they can’t fully comprehend what they are doing. Am I missing something here?

I posted this earlier ...this answers the question if you understand it.
8 The use of the aor. in both Romans passages, in their given context, point to an event, i.e., mankind did not simply inherit a sinful nature or tendency from Adam—“all have sinned,” thus referring to personal experience and activity, but “all sinned” in an event, a point in time (Rom. 3:23, pa,ntej ga.r h[marton kai. u`sterou/ntai th/j do,xhj tou/ qeou/. “For all sinned and are subsequently constantly coming short…” Rom. 5:12, …diV e`no.j avnqrw,pou h` a`marti,a eivj to.n ko,smon…evfV w-| pa,ntej h[marton. “by one man sin entered into the world…for all sinned.”). Every human being is a sinner by imputation, nature and personal activity.

All sinned in Adam...all infants,all people ever born sinned in Adam.
they are guilty as soon as they are conceived.There is no "innocent"child.
 
I would like for someone to explain this scripture to me:

Rom 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

What did Paul mean when he said he was once alive without the law?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I would like for someone to explain this scripture to me:



What did Paul mean when he said he was once alive without the law?

It is not really relevant to this thread, but here is Albert Barnes on it;
past experience. Yet in this he speaks the sentiment of all who are unconverted, and who are depending on their own righteousness.

Was alive. This is opposed to what he immediately adds respecting another state, in which he was when he died. It must mean, therefore, that he had a certain kind of peace; he deemed himself secure; he was free from the convictions of conscience and the agitations of alarm. The state to which he refers here must be doubtless that to which he himself elsewhere alludes, when he deemed himself to be righteous, depending on his own works, and esteeming himself to be blameless, Philippians 3:4-6 Acts 23:1; 26:4,5. It means, that he was then free from those agitations and alarms which he afterwards experienced when he was brought under conviction for sin. At that time, though he had the law, and was attempting to obey it, yet he was unacquainted with its spiritual and holy nature. He aimed at external conformity. Its claims on the heart were unfelt. This is the condition of every self-confident sinner, and of every one who is unawakened.

Without the law. Not that Paul was ever really without the law--that is, without the law of Moses; but he means before the law was applied to his heart in its spiritual meaning, and with power.

But when the commandment came. When it was applied to the heart and conscience. This is the only intelligible sense of the expression; for it cannot refer to the time when the law was given. When this was, the apostle does not say. But the expression denotes whenever it was so applied; when it was urged with power and efficacy on his conscience, to control, restrain, and threaten him, it produced this effect. We are unacquainted with the early operations of his mind, and with his struggles against conscience and duty. We know enough of him before conversion, however, to be assured that he was proud, impetuous, and unwilling to be restrained. See Acts 8:1-9:43. In the state of his self-confident righteousness and impetuosity of feeling, we may easily suppose that the holy law of God, which is designed to restrain the passions, to humble the heart, and to rebuke pride, would produce only irritation, and impatience of restraint, and revolt.

Sin revived. Lived again. This means that it was before dormant, Romans 7:8 but was now quickened into new life. The word is usually applied to a renewal of life, Romans 14:9; Luke 15:24,32 but here it means substantially the same as the expression in Romans 7:8, "Sin--wrought- in me all manner of concupiscence." The power of sin, which was before dormant, became quickened and active.

I died. That is, I was by it involved in additional guilt and misery. It stands opposed to "I was alive," and must mean the opposite of that; and evidently denotes that the effect of the commandment was to bring him under what he calls death, Romans 5:12,14,15 that is, sin reigned, and raged, and produced its withering and condemning effects; it led to aggravated guilt and misery. It may also include this idea: that before, he was self-confident and secure; but that by the commandment he was stricken down and humbled, his self-confidence was blasted, and his hopes were prostrated in the dust. Perhaps no words would better express the humble, subdued, melancholy, and helpless state of a converted sinner than the expressive phrase "I died." The essential idea here is, that the law did not answer the purpose which the Jew would claim for it, to sanctify the soul and to give comfort, but that all its influence on the heart was to produce aggravated, unpardoned guilt and woe.

Verse 10. And the commandment. The law to which he had referred before.
For more,look here;
http://www.preceptaustin.org/romans_77-13.htm
 

webdog

Active Member
Site Supporter
Albert Barnes said:
It must mean, therefore, that he had a certain kind of peace; he deemed himself secure; he was free from the convictions of conscience and the agitations of alarm. The state to which he refers here must be doubtless that to which he himself elsewhere alludes, when he deemed himself to be righteous, depending on his own works, and esteeming himself to be blameless, Philippians 3:4-6 Acts 23:1; 26:4,5. It means, that he was then free from those agitations and alarms which he afterwards experienced when he was brought under conviction for sin. At that time, though he had the law, and was attempting to obey it, yet he was unacquainted with its spiritual and holy nature. He aimed at external conformity. Its claims on the heart were unfelt. This is the condition of every self-confident sinner, and of every one who is unawakened
The problem with this is his "what it must mean". Paul stated emphatically "I was alive" and "I died", not "I considered myself alive" and "I was under further guilt". Surely the Holy Spirit could have inspired that, no?
 
Iconoclast
It is relevant to the thread, as is what you cut and pasted.

Without the law. Not that Paul was ever really without the law--that is, without the law of Moses; but he means before the law was applied to his heart in its spiritual meaning, and with power.

How is that not relevant to this thread?
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
All men are accountable already as dead in Adam,as in my earlier post on romans 5:12 Paul's relation to the law of God,first using it for the wrong purpose does not have anything to do with any supposed age of accountability.
How do you think it does?/ Or what am I misunderstanding about your post,maybe I do not understand how you are viewing this text....help me connect the dots,lol......there are a whole list of commentaries on the link, Differing opinions but worth the read.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
The problem with this is his "what it must mean". Paul stated emphatically "I was alive" and "I died", not "I considered myself alive" and "I was under further guilt". Surely the Holy Spirit could have inspired that, no?

Webdog,
I think Paul is using a form or figure of speech to explain his past wrong use of the law....not about alive or dead like in romans 5
here is Matthew henry on verse 9;
It was humbling (Romans 7:9): I was alive. He thought himself in a very good condition; he was alive in his own opinion and apprehension, very secure and confident of the goodness of his state. Thus he was once, pote--in times past, when he was a Pharisee; for it was the common temper of that generation of men that they had a very good conceit of themselves; and Paul was then like the rest of them, and the reason was he was then without the law. Though brought up at the feet of Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, though himself a great student in the law, a strict observer of it, and a zealous stickler for it, yet without the law. He had the letter of the law, but he had not the spiritual meaning of it--the shell, but not the kernel. He had the law in his hand and in his head, but he had it not in his heart; the notion of it, but not the power of it. There are a great many who are spiritually dead in sin, that yet are alive in their own opinion of themselves, and it is their strangeness to the law that is the cause of the mistake. But when the commandment came, came in the power of it (not to his eyes only, but to his heart), sin revived, as the dust in a room rises (that is, appears) when the sun-shine is let into it. Paul then saw that in sin which he had never seen before; he then saw sin in its causes, the bitter root, the corrupt bias, the bent to backslide,--sin in its colours, deforming, defiling, breaking a righteous law, affronting an awful Majesty, profaning a sovereign crown by casting it to the ground,--sin in its consequences, sin with death at the heels of it, sin and the curse entailed upon it. "Thus sin revived, and then I died; I lost that good opinion which I had had of myself, and came to be of another mind. Sin revived, and I died; that is, the Spirit, but the commandment, convinced me that I was in a state of sin, and in a state of death because of sin." Of this excellent use is the law; it is a lamp and a light; it converts the soul, opens the eyes, prepares the way of the Lord in the desert, rends the rocks, levels the mountains, makes ready a people prepared for the Lord
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top