Age of Accountability

[freeatlast]

I never said they were saved as babies. I do not believe that every baby is saved at birth or before birth but I believe that God COULD cause an infant or unborn child to have faith if they were going to die.

What scripture are you basing this belief on?

 

[annsni]

I never said they were saved as babies. I do not believe that every baby is saved at birth or before birth but I believe that God COULD cause an infant or unborn child to have faith if they were going to die.

What scripture are you basing this belief on?

I will go back to my original idea:

I have absolutely no knowledge as to whether this is right or not but it makes sense to me - that God created us with enough knowledge to be able to have faith if we are going to be saved. Even those who are born with very damaged brains would have a way to have a very simple faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. But I don't believe that they are saved then lose their salvation at a certain point then have to get it back again. I do think that once one is saved, they are saved forever.

 

[freeatlast]

I will go back to my original idea:

Since your belief is not in scripture would you agree that you are adding to the word of God by your belief?

 

[annsni]

Since your belief is not in scripture would you agree that you are adding to the word of God by your belief?

I would if I said that it was equal to the Word of God.

 

[quickened1]

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Rom 4:8)

("For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed where there is no law". (Rom 5:13)

The gentiles were not under the Mosaic law but were under the law of their own conscience. See Rom 2:14&15.

I believe babies, children who haven't reached an age of accountability and the mentally handicap, are some that get in under Rom 4:8.

 

[annsni]

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Rom 4:8)

("For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed where there is no law". (Rom 5:13)

The gentiles were not under the Mosaic law but were under the law of their own conscience. See Rom 2:14&15.

I believe babies, children who haven't reached an age of accountability and the mentally handicap, are some that get in under Rom 4:8.

That means that those "some" get into heaven without the blood of Jesus.

 

[Amy.G]

That means that those "some" get into heaven without the blood of Jesus.

No. Jesus died for all. It is only when looking through the lens of "limited atonement" that you have a problem.

 

[annsni]

No. Jesus died for all. It is only when looking through the lens of "limited atonement" that you have a problem.

So then the atonement is for everyone - until they hit a particular age and then it is no longer for them - unless they choose to follow Christ.

I just don't see that in Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

So then the atonement is for everyone - until they hit a particular age and then it is no longer for them - unless they choose to follow Christ.

I just don't see that in Scripture.

It's always for them and everyone. But at a certain age, of which only God knows, we are responsible to respond to the gospel call of God through faith.

 

[annsni]

It's always for them and everyone. But at a certain age, of which only God knows, we are responsible to respond to the gospel call of God through faith.

But then they are saved, then not saved and then possibly saved again. Is that right? See, if I believed that is how God worked, then it would be a wonderful blessing that children die because then we can be assured that they are saved. If we wait until they get older, they may have the choice of denying God - and thus going to hell when they had heaven in their hands earlier in their lives.

 

[percho]

No, regeneration is not the same as faith. Faith means to trust, depend, or rely upon another.

Let's say you loan someone your car. That is faith. It is no longer in your possession or in your sight, but you fully expect (hope) for them to return it to you safely.

Regeneration means restoration, to restore something to it's pristine state, to renew or renovate something.

Faith in the scriptures means to trust God at his word, to depend upon it's truthfulness, to rely upon his promises.

KJV are ye saved / NKJV NIV ESV NASB RSV you have been saved
he saved us

From Eph. 2:8 and Titus 3:5

Are both of these speaking of how one is saved?
If so do both say one is saved differently or the same way?
Is there more than one way for one to be saved?
Do you have to want to be saved before you can be saved?
Just how is one saved?

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Does that verse say the same thing as, by washing of regeneration?

Where Paul says that if there is no resurrection of the dead then Christ is not raised (that is he is still dead) and they that have died believing in him are perished. It is the regeneration that gives the cleansing power to the blood. By washing of regeneration. There is power in that little word of.

 

[convicted1]

See thats why I cant understand free will people. I was having a marvolous time drinking & cavorting.....it was probably the most fun I ever had. I can understand a guy like Augustine who lived a similar life with the arm length, "Yes I know Lord, but not yet" ....thats human, thats masculine. Let me sow my wild oats! Then when Im ready we will talk. I kinda said that but with like a ....lets talk on my death bed. And Im trying to be sincere, life was a true joy (Sex, drugs, booze, partying & Rock and Roll). So when I hear a guy say, " yea I gave myself to the Lord....was 1972 & I took that walk" Im like "Really" why on earth would you do that? No, I had no interest....zilch! Praise God though, when He wants you, He comes after you. He completely changed my heart, my mind my very soul. I was 53 years old & He just did a series of things that knocked me over. I say this sincerely.....when He wants you, there isn't much you can do to escape it. And he is still doing it....He is no respecter of anything but His own will....and if your right with Him, your not either. He is in total control & your not, so enjoy the ride. Praise God!

Bro. EWF,

Here is something I want you to chew on. I think we can get a lot of things from the very beginning, if we only dig and pray for it. I read your post and this is what came to mind:

Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

God had given him(Adam) all that he needed, correct? Now, if God wanted to, He could have "dressed it and kept it", correct? However, God chose to let Adam dress it and keep it. So, IOW, the responsibilty to keep the Garden was laid solely on Adam, correct?....this was before God made Eve from Adam's rib. So when God calls, it's our responsibilty to heed to the call. All the responsibilty of salvation(meaning if we reject, we could die in our sins before He calls again) is squarely laid in our lap. We can't stand before Jesus and then say we were never offered salvation.

I know that this analogy may be "far out there" for some on here, but give this some deeper thought before casting judgement. God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed, but it was up to them(responsibilty) to "keep and dress the Garden". God gave us everything we needed when He allowed His Son to die for our sins!! Now, it's up to us to heed the call when it comes(responsibilty placed upon us then).

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[freeatlast]

I would if I said that it was equal to the Word of God.

Anytime we hold beliefs that form or point to doctrine we are adding to scripture if there is no scripture to support the view and especially if that belief stated or written influences others to accept it as truth.

 

[freeatlast]

"Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin" (Rom 4:8)

("For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed where there is no law". (Rom 5:13)

The gentiles were not under the Mosaic law but were under the law of their own conscience. See Rom 2:14&15.

I believe babies, children who haven't reached an age of accountability and the mentally handicap, are some that get in under Rom 4:8.

My friend the Law of Moses did not and does not send men to hell. There was no provision in the law to do that. The law came with blessings and cursings for this life. Before the law from Adam to Moses men went to hell and men were redeemed. The law of Moses only sheds light on what the outcome is for those under that law. There is no age of accountability in the bible nor is there any exceptions given as to how we are saved.

 

[percho]

Bro. EWF,

Here is something I want you to chew on. I think we can get a lot of things from the very beginning, if we only dig and pray for it. I read your post and this is what came to mind:

Gen. 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

God had given him(Adam) all that he needed, correct? Now, if God wanted to, He could have "dressed it and kept it", correct? However, God chose to let Adam dress it and keep it. So, IOW, the responsibilty to keep the Garden was laid solely on Adam, correct?....this was before God made Eve from Adam's rib. So when God calls, it's our responsibilty to heed to the call. All the responsibilty of salvation(meaning if we reject, we could die in our sins before He calls again) is squarely laid in our lap. We can't stand before Jesus and then say we were never offered salvation.

I know that this analogy may be "far out there" for some on here, but give this some deeper thought before casting judgement. God gave Adam and Eve everything they needed, but it was up to them(responsibilty) to "keep and dress the Garden". God gave us everything we needed when He allowed His Son to die for our sins!! Now, it's up to us to heed the call when it comes(responsibilty placed upon us then).

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Responsibility.
Adam and Eve and a garden full of trees and only one they were not to eat of. Which one did they choose to eat of?

By awesome miracles God brought them out of Egypt to Mt. Sinai and gave them his law and said I have put before you this day life and death and told them choose life. What did they choose?

The curtain closes and time goes by. The Word, the one that put the man and woman in the garden, the one that gave them the law, was made flesh lived among some of them thirty some odd years died for them and was raised from the dead to give them life.

Choose?

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Do you see choice in that above or do you see what God will do?

 

[convicted1]

Responsibility.
Adam and Eve and a garden full of trees and only one they were not to eat of. Which one did they choose to eat of?

By awesome miracles God brought them out of Egypt to Mt. Sinai and gave them his law and said I have put before you this day life and death and told them choose life. What did they choose?

The curtain closes and time goes by. The Word, the one that put the man and woman in the garden, the one that gave them the law, was made flesh lived among some of them thirty some odd years died for them and was raised from the dead to give them life.

Choose?

Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Do you see choice in that above or do you see what God will do?

This that you posted came from Hebrews chapter 8; let's go back to Jeremiah 31 and use that text that Paul used in Hebrews:

Jer. 31:27 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will sow the house of Israel and the house of Judah with the seed of man, and with the seed of beast.

28 And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them, to pluck up, and to break down, and to throw down, and to destroy, and to afflict; so will I watch over them, to build, and to plant, saith the LORD.

29 In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge.

30 But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Everyone shall die for their own iniquity. What iniquities has a baby committed at birth to die "spiritually"??

31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:

32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: It states here that they broke the covenant that God had given them. How could they have broken it, without a choice being involved??

33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. What is the "after those days"?? I believe this is referring to the days of Jesus, and after He died, and was ascended, the Holy Ghost came down and dwelled in the soul of all CHRISTians. This "new covenant" could not take root until after Jesus arose from the grave and was placed on the right hand of the Father in glory.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. Again, it states that all shall know me. from the least unto the greatest. Under the OT laws, the multitudes of people could only know God through the Prophets and High Priests. After Jesus died, and was ascended unto the Father the last time, the Holy Ghost came down, and indwelled all of those who have been born again/born from above from that point forward, including us. But under the OT, they could only know what they were told from the Prophets and High Priests.

Hebrew word used for "brake" in Jer. 31:32 parar

1) to break, frustrate

1) to break, violate

2) to frustrate, make ineffectual

1) to be frustrated

2) to be broken

3) to break

2) to split, divide

a) (Qal) to split, crack through

b) (Poel) to break apart

c) (Hithpoel) to be split, be cracked through

So, to "break" something, it must have been a part of something to begin with.

A baby is "spiritually alive"(under God's grace{under Jesus' blood}) until the law confronts them, and in turn slays them. Then they are lost, doomed for a devil's hell, unless they repent, and believe the Gospel.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

Now to follow up and go deeper into Hebrews chapter 8:

7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. Now, here it states that their fathers "continued not in my covenant". So, how could they not continue, unless they were a part of the covenant to begin with? If they 'continued not", it looks like they chose not to continue.....see where I am going with this??

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:Again, it looks like here it is talking about the indwelling of the holy Spirit, that didn't take place until after Jesus died and was ascended to the Father the last time.

11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Until we are confronted with the Law, are souls are "spiritually alive" unto God. When the Law shows us how sinful we really are, we then die the "spiritual death".

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[convicted1]

One more thing; in Hebrews chapter 10:

15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

The holy Ghost became our witness, whereas under the OT, they had to go by what the Prophets and High Priests told them. You can even read in Acts how the people were led astray by Simon, the socerer(sp?), and thought that he was a great man of God. It was like that at times in the OT. They were led astray by false prophets. Now, the holy Ghost leads His children in the path of righteousness.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled OP......:smilewinkgrin:

Apostle Paul stated that he was "alive" without the law, but the commandment(law) came, sin revived, and he died. How could he be alive without the law? How can anything be alive and dead at the same time?

Greek word for "alive" used in Rom. 7:9 zaō

1) to live, breathe, be among the living (not lifeless, not dead)

2) to enjoy real life

a) to have true life and worthy of the name

b) active, blessed, endless in the kingdom of God

3) to live i.e. pass life, in the manner of the living and acting

a) of mortals or character

4) living water, having vital power in itself and exerting the same upon the soul

5) metaph. to be in full vigour

a) to be fresh, strong, efficient,

b) as adj. active, powerful, efficacious


Greek word for "without": chōris

1) separate, apart

a) without any

b) besides

So this verse could also be stated, "I was alive seperate from the law," or "without any law", "or apart from the law", etc.

The Greek word for "revived": anazaō

1) live again, recover life

a) to be restored to a correct life

1) of one who returns to a better moral state

b) to revive, regain strength and vigour

So sin "regained strength and vigour" after it(Law) confronted Apostle Paul, and showed him as a sinner....it was only after this occurance, that he died "spiritually", and there at this age of accountability, he died...at whatever age the Law confronted, only God knows.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[saturneptune]

We have in this thread an array of theories based on lots of opinion. The 1689 document mentioned several times is another man made document, not Inspired, nor is it Scripture. Neither are opinions and theories arising out of either Calvinism or free will type reasoning. It all centers on Scripture. Maybe these two verses out of Romans 7 would help. There are similar verses in Romans 5 and 6.

9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

We are all going to die a physical death because of the curse of sin. Spiritual death comes with the awareness of the law. So, if you want to know the age of accountability, then figure out when each individual became aware of the law, or maybe you could term it knowing the difference between right and wrong. No doubt it is different from person to person.

 

[convicted1]

We have in this thread an array of theories based on lots of opinion. The 1689 document mentioned several times is another man made document, not Inspired, nor is it Scripture. Neither are opinions and theories arising out of either Calvinism or free will type reasoning. It all centers on Scripture. Maybe these two verses out of Romans 7 would help. There are similar verses in Romans 5 and 6.

9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.

We are all going to die a physical death because of the curse of sin. Spiritual death comes with the awareness of the law. So, if you want to know the age of accountability, then figure out when each individual became aware of the law, or maybe you could term it knowing the difference between right and wrong. No doubt it is different from person to person.

Amen, Brother, Amen!!! Does this mean I have you on my side??? LOL