What about the IFB Baptist group?

[TCassidy]

Dude, you really have a thing for gay pastors, dontcha... :thumbsup:

This was the first time I mentioned it. I have a thing for the truth. When you tell an untruth I am ethically and morally bound to respond. When you broad-brush IFBs, I respond. When you deny that Community churches have gay pastors, I respond.

See how, when the shoe is on the other foot, and it is your ox being gored, you take an entirely different position?

 

[glfredrick]

This was the first time I mentioned it. I have a thing for the truth. When you tell an untruth I am ethically and morally bound to respond. When you broad-brush IFBs, I respond. When you deny that Community churches have gay pastors, I respond.

See how, when the shoe is on the other foot, and it is your ox being gored, you take an entirely different position?

METROPOLITAN COMMUNITY CHURCHES. The simple use of "community"does not express the TRUTH about the churches that have gays.

Get it right or quit trying... Innaccuracy to win a point is another note that one might make against the IFB that I've seen on this board. Are we dealing with truth here or not?

Here is their link...

http://ufmcc.com/

 

[tinytim]

"Darkness" brother? I respect you, but that's pretty harsh. Are C4K, DHK, Dr. Cassidy, myself and others of us who are IFB here on the BB in "darkness," though we claim the light of the Lord Jesus Christ?

It may be harsh, maybe too harsh, but I will try to explain later this week.. I can't today, as I am in Seminary this week working on my M.Div.. and don't have the time to right now...

I think you will understand once I explain...

 

[TCassidy]

Here is my first post:



And, you dislike me enough to attack, attack, attack... Thanks for proving my point multiple times over.

Why must you lie about it? I have not attacked you. I have attacked your sinful slander of good and godly people in IFB churches, the vast majority of which do not fit your false stereotype.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

And again, as I asked above:

DO YOU DISAVOW YOURSELF OF THE IFB WHO ARE REPRESENTED BY THE SITE I POSTED?

Or, are they your brothers and sisters in the faith, while you rip me up?

I have never avowed them. And, yes, they are my brothers and sisters in the faith. Mistaken. Sinning against both God and their brethren, but still, if saved, my brothers and sisters in the Lord. Just as you, sinning against God and the brethren, are still my brother in Christ. And I have not ripped you up. I have ripped up your sowing of discord among the brethren, your slander of good and Godly churches and Christians, and your broad-brushing IFBs on the basis of a statistically insignificant sampling.

 

[glfredrick]

Why must you lie about it? I have not attacked you. I have attacked your sinful slander of good and godly people in IFB churches, the vast majority of which do not fit your false stereotype.

Proverbs 6:16 These six things the LORD hates,
Yes, seven are an abomination to Him:
17 A proud look,
A lying tongue,
Hands that shed innocent blood,
18 A heart that devises wicked plans,
Feet that are swift in running to evil,
19 A false witness who speaks lies,
And one who sows discord among brethren.

I have never avowed them. And, yes, they are my brothers and sisters in the faith. Mistaken. Sinning against both God and their brethren, but still, if saved, my brothers and sisters in the Lord. Just as you, sinning against God and the brethren, are still my brother in Christ. And I have not ripped you up. I have ripped up your sowing of discord among the brethren, your slander of good and Godly churches and Christians, and your broad-brushing IFBs on the basis of a statistically insignificant sampling.

Perhaps you are one of the IFB that I said that I would GLADLY accept because you are not in the same camp as those who are lunatics of the first order. AWESOME. We are not at war. Meanwhile, there are IFB who ARE so far apart from anything that God said in His Word that they are unrecognizable as a true Gospel church. It is THEY that I speak about.

What do you think of James Dobson? Of Spurgeon? Of Calvinism or Arminianism? Accept those or are they of the devil?

I showed some level of proof that was eye-opening for some and a cry to war for others. Yet, the evidence still exists.

 

[TCassidy]

METROPOLITAN COMMUNITY CHURCHES. The simple use of "community"does not express the TRUTH about the churches that have gays.

Just as "Independent" does not express the TRUTH about the churches you are slandering.

Get it right or quit trying... Innaccuracy to win a point is another note that one might make against the IFB that I've seen on this board. Are we dealing with truth here or not?

Yes. You inaccurately post a slander of IFBs when, in fact, you are only referring to a few churches and know virtually nothing about the vast majority of IFB churches that are loving, biblical, and serving the Lord.

And I am the one dealing with Truth. You are the one trying to condemn all IFB by suggesting an association with bad churches where no such association exists.

Shame on you! The Lord rebuke you!

If you have any desire at all to be honest, name the churches and men who have committed these wrongs. Don't just attack IFBs in general. Be specific. Your slander would never be tolerated in a court of law. Your testimony would be stricken from the record without first hand testimony regarding specifics, not vague generalities with no basis in fact.

So, I challenge you to "put up or shut up." Name the churches and/or pastors who have abused you, the nature of the abuse, and the time frame when the abuse occurred. The ball is in your court. Either run with the big dogs or get back on the porch.

 

[TCassidy]

It may be harsh, maybe too harsh, but I will try to explain later this week.. I can't today, as I am in Seminary this week working on my M.Div.. and don't have the time to right now...

I think you will understand once I explain...

I am sorry, Tim, but there is no adequate "explanation" for your saying I and my IFB brothers and sisters are in darkness. None.

 

[DHK]

First, get it right... It is not "community church" that is the gay church, it is "metropolitan church."

Second, . do you know that we have gay pastors (we do not)? If you do not, then you are a liar and you have now joined the devil as an accuser of the brethren. Want to play tough, let's...

Why go on like this? You are not playing fair and all can see this but you.
You have listed your church as Sojourn Community Church.
There are Community churches that have gay pastors. That is a fact. Those are the churches that you have associated yourself with. You can deny that if you will, but that is a fact.

In the same way that you have taken a brush and lumped all IFB churches into one camp, we simply show you that we can take all "community" churches and lump them all into one "camp". What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want to misrepresent the IFB churches by pointing out the faults of just a few of them, then we can misrepresent your church by pointing out the faults of just a few of the "community" churches. Fair is fair. This is what you are doing, and yet you find it unjust when we do the same thing that you are doing to us. You are totally unreasonable. What is with that??

Third, the IFB churches (and individuals who have posted publicly what they have posted publicly on the web are not my doing, nor my churches doing. They are what they are and I am not the only one testifying against them.

You are responsible for discernment. You are responsible for the research that you do. You are responsible for some of the hateful posts that you have posted here. You are responsible for characterizing all IFB churches just like the few that you have come in contact with, without doing any further homework. That leads us to believe (without doing any further homework) that all community churches have gay pastors. It is unreasonable, but as unreasonable as you are in your conclusions.

That is the nature of INDEPENDENT... What's so hard about that other than the fact that you have chosen to be offended by the actions of others who carry the same means of identifying themselves as you.

And the nature of "community churches" are gay and homosexual. Am I right? You know I am, by your above conclusion. Again you haven't done your homework and have drawn unwarranted conclusions.

 

[glfredrick]

Guess timytim, earthwindandfire, and a few others of us are soon to be added to the list of people on the IFB hit list... :wavey:

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

This has been my experience also, with a very few exceptions!!!!...
I praise God that He led me out of the darkness of IFB!

Darkness of IFB? Pretty tough. I don't sense that I am in darkness. I truly am experiencing walking in the Light.

 

[DHK]

Tom, unfortunately I can give you one right now that is about as kookie as you can get in Eastern Pennsylvania.....I will add to the list that girls cant wear sandals to picnics & camp events because the toes are exposed. Try looking at schools like The Ambassador Bible College in the Carolinas also loopie With Dr. Ron Comfort for starters. So whats that prove, that they do exist.

You can't equate a college with a church.
How many fundamental colleges have you been to?
Have you compared Ambassador to BJU, Maranatha, Northland, etc.,
How different are they?

Colleges demand rules for young people. They are there for a purpose. This is entirely new topic which has already been discussed in the college/seminaries forum. You can find quite a bit of information there.

 

[TCassidy]

Perhaps you are one of the IFB that I said that I would GLADLY accept because you are not in the same camp as those who are lunatics of the first order.

But I am IFB and you have stereotyped IFB as being evil. It is you who attacked the entire camp without drawing any distinctions. I again ask you for specifics.

AWESOME. We are not at war. Meanwhile, there are IFB who ARE so far apart from anything that God said in His Word that they are unrecognizable as a true Gospel church. It is THEY that I speak about.

Then be specific and stop using "IFB" to describe them. Name them, just as the bible says to do, Romans 16:17 "Now I urge you, brethren, note those who cause divisions and offenses, contrary to the doctrine which you learned . . . "

What do you think of James Dobson?

He has some good ideas, some not so good.

Of Spurgeon?

Some good, some not so good.

Of Calvinism

Some good some not so good.

or Arminianism?

Some good some not so good.

Accept those or are they of the devil?

Accept? Accept how? I accept they exist. I accept that they all have some good points and all have some bad points. Are they of the devil? Not that I know of.

What has this got to do with your condemnation of IFB?

I showed some level of proof that was eye-opening for some and a cry to war for others. Yet, the evidence still exists.

No, you showed an insignificant sampling of a stupid web page. If you want to be taken seriously you will have to give names, times, dates, etc. And that not the result of surfing the web, but from your own personal experience. And again, not slander IFB on the basis of a vast minority of persons or churches.

 

[TCassidy]

Guess timytim, earthwindandfire, and a few others of us are soon to be added to the list of people on the IFB hit list... :wavey:

Please tell me where I can find this "IFB hit list" that all IFB have agreed to.

Thank you.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

Guess timytim, earthwindandfire, and a few others of us are soon to be added to the list of people on the IFB hit list... :wavey:

I think what is difficult for me is that those who take a vehement anti-IFB stand don't use a hit list. It is simple:

IFB = Darknesss
Since I am IFB I have been judged as being in darkness.
How is that 'better' or more godly than a 'hit list?'

BTW - I in no way support the 'hit list' in this thread, but I am IFB.

 

[glfredrick]

Why go on like this? You are not playing fair and all can see this but you.
You have listed your church as Sojourn Community Church.
There are Community churches that have gay pastors. That is a fact. Those are the churches that you have associated yourself with. You can deny that if you will, but that is a fact.

First, Sojourn is a BAPTIST church. Their name has the word "community" in it, because we are ministering in and to the community around us.

Second, can you be sure that no IFB churches have gay pastors? How can you tell? What of Ted Haggard? What of Paul Barnes? What of Shane Montgomery? What of George Rekers? What of Steve Wu? What of Jermaine Donnell Jakes? What of Brad Braxton? What of Paul Sheppard?

All these men, and others, have had to step down from their ministries because -- after preaching against homosexual practice -- were found to be practicing gay behavior in fact. Many, if not most of the men above were married, so that is no defense.

As for "the churches I have associated myself with..." you are grasping at straws. We are fully Baptist and Reformed with church discipline for sexual behaviors not in keeping with the Scriptures at that.

In the same way that you have taken a brush and lumped all IFB churches into one camp, we simply show you that we can take all "community" churches and lump them all into one "camp". What is good for the goose is good for the gander. If you want to misrepresent the IFB churches by pointing out the faults of just a few of them, then we can misrepresent your church by pointing out the faults of just a few of the "community" churches. Fair is fair. This is what you are doing, and yet you find it unjust when we do the same thing that you are doing to us. You are totally unreasonable. What is with that??

I HAVE NOT...

I have stated very clearly that every Baptist church is autonomous and that some IFB churches are just what I describe. That is because THEY ARE.

You are responsible for discernment. You are responsible for the research that you do. You are responsible for some of the hateful posts that you have posted here. You are responsible for characterizing all IFB churches just like the few that you have come in contact with, without doing any further homework. That leads us to believe (without doing any further homework) that all community churches have gay pastors. It is unreasonable, but as unreasonable as you are in your conclusions.

I am very discerning and I have brought evidence.

And the nature of "community churches" are gay and homosexual. Am I right? You know I am, by your above conclusion. Again you haven't done your homework and have drawn unwarranted conclusions.

So far, I've found the nature of the IFB persons here on the board to be one of attack anyone that points out some flaw in some of the churches that bear their name... If the shoe fits, wear it. If not, toss it aside. And I'll remember this the next time I see a series of posts attacking the SBC on this board... They are OFTEN and rarely is anything said in their defense. I don't recall you stepping up in my defense when I've been in discussions or debates of that nature... Where were you my concerned brother?

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

So far, I've found the nature of the IFB persons here on the board to be one of attack anyone that points out some flaw in some of the churches that bear their name.

Where have I attacked anyone who criticizes a flaw in another IFB church? I am one of the IFB persons and I often admit that there are flaws - I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that our IFB church has flaws.

Would it be fair of me to say 'the nature of the SBC persons here on the board is to attack the IFB?'

 

[DHK]

Tinytim's statement was:

I praise God that He led me out of the darkness of IFB!

Is this not along the lines of a universal negative, a logical fallacy.
For it to be true, he would have had to search the entire IFB movement--all IFB churches, to see whether or not each and every one were a stronghold of darkness. Is there darkness in all IFB churches? This seems to be the meaning of the statement. It is a statement that cannot be proven--a logical fallacy.

It is not like "I praise the Lord that He led me out of the darkness of the religion of the J.W.'s because we know that the doctrine of the J.W.'s is false and satanic--every single one of them.

But to claim that every single IFB church is full of darkness cannot be proven. It is a claim that is totally unsubstantiated, and, in effect, a logical fallacy. Has he checked all IFB churches in America? in the world?

 

[Jerome]

What of Ted Haggard? What of Paul Barnes? What of Shane Montgomery? What of George Rekers? What of Steve Wu? What of Jermaine Donnell Jakes? What of Brad Braxton? What of Paul Sheppard?

Oops, you missed Roy Clements, Mark Dever's mentor at Eden Chapel, Cambridge.

 

[Salty]

Guess timytim, earthwindandfire, and a few others of us are soon to be added to the list of people on the IFB hit list... :wavey:

You forgot me - or am I too IFB:smilewinkgrin:

 

[michael-acts17:11]

The IFB churches who worship in darkness are primarily in the South, though they have attempted to spread to the four corners of the country. The several dozen that I am personally familiar with would all fall under the heading of "religious wacko's". Having said that, I did live in Pennsylvania for three years, and found the Independent Baptist in the area to be a breath of fresh air. I think each person's point or view depends upon the part of the country in which we live.

The IFB's in our area are as blinded & cultish as any unchristian religion you care to name. Anyone's lack experience with these hardened legalists does not negate the fact that they do exist & that they exist in great numbers. Christ & Paul attacked the Pharisees & their false doctrine without apology & without fear; some of us will follow their example & expose the dangers of the Pharisees of our day.