Universal Church and Landmarkism

[John of Japan]

The debate over whether or not there is a universal church seems semantical and unnecessary. Jesus said He would build His church. There is no doubt that there is a local church as ordained by God. But can it be said there is a larger church also that encompasses all believers? Why not? There is just no good argument against that idea. It seems to me that some are overreacting to some false teachings. You have to deal in semantics to make a case against it.

In linguistics semantics is a good thing. It is simply the study of meaning. Since the NT was written in koine Greek, in order to properly exegete it we must use Greek semantics.

I've looked at every single use of the Greek word ekklesia, "church," in the Greek OT, the Septuagint, and I don't find a single symbolic usage such as those who believe in a universal church advocate. That is a proper use of linguistic semantics.

 

[DHK]

This is an impossible scenario considering what Ive seen in this very board. How do you blend a Calvinist to a Non-Calvinist when there is too much theology separating us. DoG alone separates. Free Will Separates. Your asking a person to concede his or her Belief system.....Tell me Calvinists, are you willing to concede Gods Sovereignty. Predestination, DoG, say that Christs dieing on the cross was not actual atonement, but only something that makes atonement possible.... Not I & I stand on that as Gospel truth.

Remember that when Paul taught about unity, he was writing to local churches. He wasn't teaching unity to all local churches, but unity within the particular local church he was writing to. His first epistle to the Corinthians is a good example of that. It was brought to his attention of the several problems that the church was having. He writes his letter addressing each problem that the church had. The letter was very specific to that church. That is why we find information on the abuse of tongues in that church and only there. It was a problem in Corinth and not in Phiippi or Ephesus, for example.

We have unity in our church because we all agree not only to our statement of faith (which most here would agree to), but also to the constitution. If you are not in agreement, not in unity with the church that you are in, then you should find one that you are.

Furthermore, in Paul's day, there was no internet, no Facebook, no telephone, no rapid way of communication at all. Travel was difficult. To speak of world-wide unity was absurd to most people. What was the world? They never traveled out of Palestine, and most of them probably never traveled out of the city that they were born in. They had no need to. Travel was difficult, arduous, and time consuming.

 

[Tom Butler]

If there is no universal church am I to assume that when a member of a local church dies, he is no longer part of the church?

He's better off than that. He is in the presence of the Head of the church, and is fellowshipping with those who make up that great General Assembly. He is part of that great number gathered around the throne, worshiping the Lamb.

 

[mandym]

In linguistics semantics is a good thing. It is simply the study of meaning. Since the NT was written in koine Greek, in order to properly exegete it we must use Greek semantics.

I've looked at every single use of the Greek word ekklesia, "church," in the Greek OT, the Septuagint, and I don't find a single symbolic usage such as those who believe in a universal church advocate. That is a proper use of linguistic semantics.

In Matt 16:18 Christ used it in a general sense of universal if you please. And in Acts 8:3 Luke used it in a general sense.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Jesus Christ proclaimed...

"Upon this Rock (faith in Him of course) I will build my Church".

If he meant local churches, He would have said "Upon this Rock, I will build my *churches*, plural. But He didint say that. He said "Church" singular.

In addition to that very clear support for the truth of the "Universal Church", we have this truth...

Christ said...

"...and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it".

The gates of hell most certainly HAVE prevailed against some local churches. Actually, probably multiple thousands of local churches have ceased to be, for various reasons. Power struggles. dissention. Leaders who were false prophets, etc etc etc.

Yet the gates of Hell will never, and have never, prevailed againt Christs universal church.

We are here.We are here century after century after century after century.

The universal church...and the local church...thank God for both of them!

Aic

 

[DHK]

Jesus Christ proclaimed...

"Upon this Rock (faith in Him of course) I will build my Church".

More accurately, look at Darby's translation. This is what he said:

And *I* also, I say unto thee that *thou* art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)

If he meant local churches, He would have said "Upon the Rock, I will build my *churches*, plural. But He didint say that. He said "Church" singular.

You say: "If he meant 'assemblies', He would have said, "Upon the Rock, I will build my "assemblies", plural,...He said "Assembly" singular."
--His assembly at that time was his disciples, those that followed closely with him. On the day of Pentecost there were 120, and to that number 3,000 were saved, all in the local assembly that had gathered or assembled in Jerusalem. And the Lord added to that assembly daily such as should be saved.

Jesus also used the word "assembly" in Matthew 18.
But if he will not listen to them, tell it to the assembly; and if also he will not listen to the assembly, let him be to thee as one of the nations and a tax-gatherer. (Matthew 18:17)
--In this case Jesus is giving instructions about church discipline to his disciples. The "local church" or assembly is not even in existence yet, but Jesus has given them instructions anyway about how to deal with discipline within the assembly. There is no such thing as an assembly that never assembles or cannot assemble. It is a contradiction in terms.
In addition to that very clear support for the truth of the "Universal Church", we have this truth...

Notice also how the word "church" or "assembly" in these verses are used in a generic way. If I make the statement, "Man has a spirit, but animals don't."
What man has a spirit? Dick? Tom? Larry? Does that include women as well? What man?
We all know that man in this case the word "man" is used in a generic sense to refer to all men. There are some cases in the NT where the single noun "church" is used to refer to all churches, just as it is in the above example. It is used generically.

Christ said...

"...and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it".

The gates of hell most certainly HAVE prevailed against some local churches. Actually, probably multiple thousands of local churches have ceased to be, for various reasons. Power struggles. dissention. Leaders who were false prophets, etc etc etc.

Yet the gates of Hell will never, and have never, prevailed againt Christs universal church.

And *I* also, I say unto thee that *thou* art Peter, and on this rock I will build my assembly, and hades' gates shall not prevail against it. (Matthew 16:18)
Christ refers to His Assembly.
For other foundation can no man lay besides that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. (1 Corinthians 3:11)
--Is Christ the foundation of the Church, the absolute rock on which it is built. This is what that verse refers to.

but if I delay, in order that thou mayest know how one ought to conduct oneself in God's house, which is the assembly of the living God, the pillar and base of the truth. (1 Timothy 3:15)
The assembly is first the pillar of the truth. It upholds the Word of God, the truth. There is no other organization that is ordained to do this. God has ordained the local church with the Great Commission and the preaching of His Word to uphold His Word, not only in their own community but all over the world.

Second, the assembly is the base (or ground) of the truth. It is the foundation on which we build. We build upon the truth, solid doctrine, faithful teaching of the Word of God. Without that the church cannot stand.

We are here

.We are here century after century after century after century.

The universal church...and the local church...thank God for both of them!

Aic

Yes, local churches faithful to the Word of God are here century after century throughout all ages. An assembly that never assembles is fiction.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus Christ proclaimed...

"Upon this Rock (faith in Him of course) I will build my Church".

If he meant local churches, He would have said "Upon this Rock, I will build my *churches*, plural. But He didint say that. He said "Church" singular.

In addition to that very clear support for the truth of the "Universal Church", we have this truth...

Christ said...

"...and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it".

The gates of hell most certainly HAVE prevailed against some local churches. Actually, probably multiple thousands of local churches have ceased to be, for various reasons. Power struggles. dissention. Leaders who were false prophets, etc etc etc.

Yet the gates of Hell will never, and have never, prevailed againt Christs universal church.

We are here.We are here century after century after century after century.

The universal church...and the local church...thank God for both of them!

Aic

AIC you said;

If he meant local churches, He would have said "Upon this Rock, I will build my *churches*, plural. But He didint say that. He said "Church" singular.

really? then when Jesus has John write in revelation 2,3 he should have told him to write to the 7 .....church? not 7 churches???
looks like they had different addresses also,as in more than one.

AIC......where does the universal church serve the Lord's supper? Who are the deacons of the universal church? How does the universal church exercise church discipline? Where does the universal church baptize new converts?

We could do this all night.

In addition to that very clear support for the truth of the "Universal Church", we have this truth...

Christ said...

"...and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it".

The gates of hell most certainly HAVE prevailed against some local churches. Actually, probably multiple thousands of local churches have ceased to be, for various reasons. Power struggles. dissention. Leaders who were false prophets, etc etc etc.

I do not think you understand the term
The gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Mandym...

Originally Posted by mandym
The debate over whether or not there is a universal church seems semantical and unnecessary. Jesus said He would build His church. There is no doubt that there is a local church as ordained by God. But can it be said there is a larger church also that encompasses all believers?

OF COURSE! Absolutly. The universal church is a beautiful and very scriptural concept. Dont let anyone talk you out it. They are stuck in their little myopic view of Gods church. It is sometimed called "churchianity", and it is a detriment to "Christianity".

Why not? There is just no good argument against that idea.

Of course their isnt.

It seems to me that some are overreacting to some false teachings. You have to deal in semantics to make a case against it.

Sure do.

But there is always hope. Just keep on sticking with what you know to be true, and kindly share truth when you have the opportunity, and let the chips fall where they will after that. These are brothers and sisters after all, not enemies

God bless.


AiC

 

[mandym]

These are brothers and sisters after all, not enemies

God bless.


AiC

Who suggested they were?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconaclas....

AIC......where does the universal church serve the Lord's supper?

In multitues upon multitudes of places. Too many to count.

Who are the deacons of the universal church?

I couldnt begin to number them. Wonderful, isnt it? They are all over this world.

How does the universal church exercise church discipline?

In many many different ways. Sometimes through Gods leaders and pastors, or, sometimes God takes care of it Himself. (He does it better than anyone else, btw.)

Where does the universal church baptize new converts?

There are lots and lots of places people can be baptized. In a church building, in a river, in the ocean.

Hope that helps. :wavey:

 

[Alive in Christ]

Who suggested they were?

Umm...I dont think anyone. Did I miss a post somewhere where someone did?

Sometimes I get in a hurry. :godisgood:


Aic

 

[convicted1]

For anyone else who responds please keep in mind that the argument is that the Universal Church has assembled... they have assembled in Christ. Hence the distinction between the local church (which yes we see menioned in scripture and no one denies) and the Universal Church (which includes all of the saved). This will answer the question of "who are the elders and deacons?", or as my friend says "when do they observe the Lords supper?", "do they meet every sabbath with each other?",etc.

Again, all that are saved come to Christ (Jn. 6:37, etc) they have assembled in Him. Please keep this distinction in mind about the nature of each (hence the distinction!), you may disagree but please don't overlook this distinction presented in the first post.[/

The sentence I bolded, I want to address. Are you stating this is past tense, meaning it in a way the DoG Brethern mean it? I do not believe the UC has assembled yet. Here's a verse to chew on:

Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.

God adds to His church daily, all who He saves from their sins. This church is Jesus' body, His Bride, of which He is over. So this Church is ever expanding, taking those in who come to Him with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.

Isaiah 57:15 For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit,to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

So, in essence, this UC hasn't assembled yet, it still exists in that it contains all of those who He has saved, whether they be baptist, pentecostal, SDA, CoC, etc.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[John of Japan]

In Matt 16:18 Christ used it in a general sense of universal if you please. And in Acts 8:3 Luke used it in a general sense.

Since I can find no place in classical or koine Greek where ekklesia is used in a metaphorical sense, my position is that in Matt. 16:18 Christ used it in a generic sense.

Again, in Acts 8:3 the usage is not a universal sense. The context in v. 1 clearly shows that the local church at Jerusalem was meant. Verse 3 has a definite article before ekklesia in the Greek, meaning the church already mentioned in the context, the Jerusalem church, not a universal church.

 

[HankD]

The question to ask is, where is this general assembly and church of the firstborn? It's certainly not assembled here on earth. I think the answer is found in v 22. It's in the heavenly Jerusalem, where all the spirits of men are made perfect.

Indeed.

KJV Hebrews 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect.​

Ephesians 2

4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us,
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:​

The Church of the Firstborn has two locations: heaven and earth.
The component in heaven has no mixed multitude, pure, without spot or wrinkle or any such thing, no tares.​

They, together with the born-again members of the local churches on earth, comprise the Church of Matthew 16:18.​

Christ has only one bride.​

Ephesians 5:23
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
...
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
...
29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
...
32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.​

True, to the local churches on earth is given the Great Commission and rules of church polity which are not needed for the assembly in heaven.​

Just for the record and FWIW, I don't like the phrase "Universal Church" or "Invisible Church".
Simply "The Church" is my preference when speaking of the body of born-again believers apart from the local church where they assemble.

HankD​

 

[J.D.]

This is an impossible scenario considering what Ive seen in this very board. How do you blend a Calvinist to a Non-Calvinist when there is too much theology separating us. DoG alone separates. Free Will Separates. Your asking a person to concede his or her Belief system.....Tell me Calvinists, are you willing to concede Gods Sovereignty. Predestination, DoG, say that Christs dieing on the cross was not actual atonement, but only something that makes atonement possible.... Not I & I stand on that as Gospel truth.

I'm not willing to concede any of those things you mentioned. But I am willing to try to find a way to unite believers.

 

[J.D.]

In linguistics semantics is a good thing. It is simply the study of meaning. Since the NT was written in koine Greek, in order to properly exegete it we must use Greek semantics.

I've looked at every single use of the Greek word ekklesia, "church," in the Greek OT, the Septuagint, and I don't find a single symbolic usage such as those who believe in a universal church advocate. That is a proper use of linguistic semantics.

The universal church is not "symbolic" in any sense. It may be metaphysical in the sense that it is made up in part by souls in heaven, and is a spiritual body, but in no way is it "symbolic". It is just as real as the local church, in which the true believers make up the other portion of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hope that helps.

Aic......yes, it helps to show you are not understanding what this thread is dealing with.

 

[mandym]

Since I can find no place in classical or koine Greek where ekklesia is used in a metaphorical sense, my position is that in Matt. 16:18 Christ used it in a generic sense.

Again, in Acts 8:3 the usage is not a universal sense. The context in v. 1 clearly shows that the local church at Jerusalem was meant. Verse 3 has a definite article before ekklesia in the Greek, meaning the church already mentioned in the context, the Jerusalem church, not a universal church.

Yea looking back at it again I have to agree.

 

[glfredrick]

In linguistics semantics is a good thing. It is simply the study of meaning. Since the NT was written in koine Greek, in order to properly exegete it we must use Greek semantics.

I've looked at every single use of the Greek word ekklesia, "church," in the Greek OT, the Septuagint, and I don't find a single symbolic usage such as those who believe in a universal church advocate. That is a proper use of linguistic semantics.

Except one... If the use of ellkesia in the NT is ONLY for the local congregations ADDRESSED BY THAT WRITING, then the entire NT is not for us, and we may as well toss it.

We KNOW that the NT is for us -- local congregations that are part of Christ's Church universal, that's why we still hold to what it teaches! Think about the ramifications of what you put forward before you make statements that nullify the entire Word of God to this or any other age.

 

[DHK]

Except one... If the use of ellkesia in the NT is ONLY for the local congregations ADDRESSED BY THAT WRITING, then the entire NT is not for us, and we may as well toss it.

We KNOW that the NT is for us -- local congregations that are part of Christ's Church universal, that's why we still hold to what it teaches! Think about the ramifications of what you put forward before you make statements that nullify the entire Word of God to this or any other age.

If what you say is true then nothing written in the OT is applicable to us today, not even the Ten Commandments, for they are all written to Israel, not us.