Universal Church and Landmarkism

[Alive in Christ]

Iconaclast...

Aic......yes, it helps to show you are not understanding what this thread is dealing with.

Ah, but I do.

In truth, it is those on your side of the issue that are in need of understanding regarding this topic.

God bless

Aic

 

[HankD]

In linguistics semantics is a good thing. It is simply the study of meaning. Since the NT was written in koine Greek, in order to properly exegete it we must use Greek semantics.

I've looked at every single use of the Greek word ekklesia, "church," in the Greek OT, the Septuagint, and I don't find a single symbolic usage such as those who believe in a universal church advocate. That is a proper use of linguistic semantics.

Psalm 26:5 I have hated the congregation of evil doers; and will not sit with the wicked.​

Close?

HankD

 

[saturneptune]

Help me here. When and where was your last meeting? When and where is your next worship service? These questions have been raised before, but if anybody has answered them, I missed it.

Brother Tom and I serve in the same church, and do not let him fool you. He is being humble by arguing the opposite side. Our association just elected Brother Tom as messenger from our association to the Universal Church. At their first meeting, he made it a point to sit between the JW and C of C. I have grown tolerant of his I'm ok, you're ok attitude towards other denominations. For years, I have pushed for communion to be closed in our church, but alas, Tom always brings a couple of pews of JW's every Lord's Supper day.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Here is an excellent commentary regarding the beautiful truth of the church local, and the church universal. Praise God for both!

Here it is...

The word "church" comes from the Greek term ekklesia which is formed from two Greek words meaning "an assembly" and "to call out" or "called out ones."

In summary, the New Testament church is a body of believers who have been called out from the world by God to live as his people under the authority of Jesus Christ (Ephesians 1:22-23). This group of believers or "the body of Christ" began in Acts 2 on the Day of Pentecost through the work of the Holy Spirit and will continue to be formed until the day of the rapture of the church.

Becoming a Member of the Church

A person becomes "a member" of the church simply by exercising faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.


The Church Local Versus the Church Universal


The local church is defined as a local assembly of believers or a congregation that meets together physically for worship, fellowship, teaching, prayer and encouragement in the faith (Hebrews 10:25). At the local church level, we are able to live in relationship with other believers—we break bread together (Communion), pray for each other, disciple, and strengthen one another.

At the same time, all believers are members of the universal church. The universal church is made up of every single person who has exercised faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, including members of every local church body throughout the earth (1 Corinthians 12:13; Ephesians 1:22-23).


So, Who is the Church?


The founder of the "home church" movement in England, Canon Ernest Southcott, said it best:

"The holiest moment of the church service is the moment when God’s people—strengthened by preaching and sacrament—go out of the church door into the world to be the church. We don’t go to church; we are the church."
The church, therefore, is not a place. It's not the building, it's not the location, and it's not the denomination. We—God's people who are in Christ Jesus—are the church.


The Purpose of the Church


The purpose of the church is two-fold. The church comes together (or assembles) for the purpose of bringing each member to spiritual maturity (Ephesians 4:13). The church reaches out (scatters) to spread the love of Christ and the gospel message to unbelievers in the world (Matthew 28:18-20). This is the Great Commission. So, the purpose of the church is to minister to believers and unbelievers.


The church, both in the universal and local sense, is important because it is one of the main vehicles through which God carries out his purposes on earth. The church is the body of Christ—his heart, his mouth, his hands and feet—reaching out to the world.

If you are interested in who wrote this....

Mary Fairchild has worked full time in Christian ministry since 1988 serving in several capacities, including Missionary, Assistant to the Pastoral Staff, Administrative Assistant and Office Manager for a large church.

Experience:

Mary made a decision at 17 to accept Jesus Christ as her personal Lord and Savior. While in Bible School, she worked for a major city church as the Assistant to the Dean of Education. Once graduated, Mary felt called as a single Christian to pursue a 4-year term of service on the mission field in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil. After returning to the States and getting married, Mary and her husband continued to lead short-term mission teams to Brazil.

More recently, she served on the staff of a large Calvary Chapel as the Office Manager and Assistant to the Pastoral Staff. In addition to managing this site, Mary currently works on special projects including writing and editing for her senior pastor.

http://christianity.about.com/od/churchandcommunity/a/thechurch.htm

 

[DHK]

Here is an excellent commentary regarding the beautiful truth of the church local, and the church universal. Praise God for both!

Here it is...

If you are interested in who wrote this....

http://christianity.about.com/od/churchandcommunity/a/thechurch.htm[/QUOTE]
Yep, the same people who wrote this:

In Catholicism, prayer is essential to growth and grace. Learn more about Catholic prayer and how to integrate it into your everyday life.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

Nice try. :laugh:

The author is with Calvary Chapel fellowship, DHK.

Do you consider the Calvary Chapel fellowship to be (((CATHOLIC)))???

You are grasping at straws DHK.

Not good. Not good at all. You need to stay on the topic, and stop attempting little diversionary tactics.

 

[Amy.G]

Yep, the same people who wrote this:

I didn't see that in the article. Maybe I missed it?


I thought the article was good. I've asked this before but didn't get an answer....if the church is only local then when a member dies is he no longer part of the church?

 

[Alive in Christ]

Amy...

Its in there, but its irrelavent. She just gave the Catholics view of it, I guess, since some Catholics might be interested.

It does not disturb the topic at hand in the least.

 

[DHK]

DHK...

Nice try. :laugh:

The author is with Calvary Chapel fellowship, DHK.

Do you consider the Calvary Chapel fellowship to be (((CATHOLIC)))???

You are grasping at straws DHK.

Not good. Not good at all. You need to stay on the topic, and stop attempting little diversionary tactics.

AIC, on a scale of 1 to 10, 10 being excellent I would give that site 0.
First it is not Baptist.
Second it is totally ecumenical.
Third it endorses error.

In a link on how to choose a church this is what it says:

What denomination?
There are many Christian denominations to choose from, such as Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Assemblies of God, Church of the Nazarene, and the list goes on and on. If you feel called to a nondenominational or interdenominational church, there are many different types of these as well, such as Pentecostal, Charismatic, and Community churches.

It advocates Catholic as a Christian denomination. The RCC is as Christian as Hinduism is. It advocates faith by works, and its message sends people straight to Hell. It is a world religion, but not a Christian religion. Those who advocate Catholicism as Christianity are badly deceived. If it errs here no wonder it errs in other places in doctrine, including the definition of a church.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Amy...here is the catholic part...

Some Christian denominations, such as the Catholic Church, interpret this verse to mean that Peter is the rock upon which the church was founded, and for this reason, Peter is considered the first Pope. However, Protestants as well as other Christian denominations understand this verse differently. Though many believe Jesus noted the meaning of Peter's name here as rock, there was no supremacy given to him by Christ. Rather, Jesus was referring to Peter's declaration: "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God." This confession of faith is the rock upon which the church is built, and just like Peter, everyone who confesses Jesus Christ as Lord is a part of the church

I didnt notice this the 1st time, but the writer brought that up, to point out that the Catholics view is wrong concerning Peter being the 1st pope.

(sorry, DHK) Thats "Strike Two" :laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

Amy...here is the catholic part...



I didnt notice this the 1st time, but the writer brought that up, to point out that the Catholics view is wrong concerning Peter being the 1st pope.

(sorry, DHK)

It is still an ecumenical site, non-Baptist, that points people to the Catholic Church. I would never recommend it to anyone for a source of doctrine. Its doctrine is contaminated.

 

[Tom Butler]

I didn't see that in the article. Maybe I missed it?


I thought the article was good. I've asked this before but didn't get an answer....if the church is only local then when a member dies is he no longer part of the church?

I thought I had answered this, but I guess you want a yes or no answer.

No.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

It is still an ecumenical site, non-Baptist...

So what if its not a baptist site?? The writer is an evangelical christain.

I gotta tell you, DHK....I am PROUD to be Baptist, but I've got a news flash for you...

We are not the only christians, and we are not the only evangelicals.

...that points people to the Catholic Church.

No it doesnt, DHK! There is nothing in there that POINTS anyone to the Catholic cult. Gosh are you ever (((paranoid)))

I would never recommend it to anyone for a source of doctrine. Its doctrine is contaminated.

Evangelical doctrine is contaminated if its not Baptist???

 

[Tom Butler]

Brother Tom and I serve in the same church, and do not let him fool you. He is being humble by arguing the opposite side. Our association just elected Brother Tom as messenger from our association to the Universal Church. At their first meeting, he made it a point to sit between the JW and C of C. I have grown tolerant of his I'm ok, you're ok attitude towards other denominations. For years, I have pushed for communion to be closed in our church, but alas, Tom always brings a couple of pews of JW's every Lord's Supper day.

Rats, Mike, did you have to spill everything?

 

[DHK]

DHK...
So what if its not a baptist site?? The writer is an evangelical christain.

You are on a Baptist discussion forum. We are discussing Baptist doctrine, not Pentecostal, any other evangelical, or the heretical Catholic. So what if he is evangelical. I am not, and this board is not. It is Baptist. Thus the topic: "universal church and Lamarkism. There are no Landmark Baptist in any other evangelical denominations or any other religions whatsoever. We are discussing a doctrine that is inherently both Biblical and Baptistic (one and the same).

I gotta tell you, DHK....I am PROUD to be Baptist, but I've got a news flash for you...

Good. Then get your nose out of ecumenical sites and look up some good Baptist sites which will give you better definitions.

We are not the only christians, and we are not the only evangelicals.

I never said we are the only Christians. I don't get my definition, for example, of the "Lord's Table" from a Catholic website. This is what you are doing. You are going to an interdenominational, ecumenical, non-Baptist website for definitions in a discussion regarding Baptist doctrine. Why not just use a Catholic website instead? Does this make any sense to you?

No it doesnt, DHK! There is nothing in there that POINTS anyone to the Catholic cult. Gosh are you ever (((paranoid)))

Why don't you look around the site a bit. I have already quoted part of it to you. I'll do it again for you:

1. Where does God want me to serve?
   While this resource is meant to offer practical steps for finding a church home, prayer is of primary importance in the process. As you seek the Lord’s direction, he will give you wisdom to know where he wants you to fellowship. So, be sure to make prayer a priority each step along the way.
   • If you’re not sure why it's important to find a church, check out what the Bible says about church attendance.
2. What denomination?
   There are many Christian denominations to choose from, such as Catholic, Methodist, Baptist, Assemblies of God, Church of the Nazarene, and the list goes on and on. If you feel called to a nondenominational or interdenominational church, there are many different types of these as well, such as Pentecostal, Charismatic, and Community churches.

I don' know of any Baptist that can recommend any of the above churches to anyone (except of course the mention of Baptist).
This is from that exact same website:
http://christianity.about.com/od/churchandcommunity/ht/chooseachurch.htm

It is promoting Catholicism in the same way Billy Graham does. He sends those that come forward back to the churches that they came from, even if they are Catholic. What good does that do??

Evangelical doctrine is contaminated if its not Baptist???

Absolutely. This is an ecumenical site. Its view on the church is wrong. Its view on many things is wrong. Remember we are discussing Baptist doctrine here. We are not ecumenical; they are. Their doctrine, by nature of its ecumenicity, must be contaminated. They are unable to preach the whole counsel of God.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK

I never said we are the only Christians. I don't get my definition, for example, of the "Lord's Table" from a Catholic website. This is what you are doing.

:laugh::laugh:

DHK, brother....ITS NOT A CATHOLIC WEBSITE!! IT NEVER WAS A CATHOLIC WEBSITE!!!

Gosh...DHK do you just make it up as you go along???

Honestly brother, sometimes you remind me of Archie Bunker the way you just throw stuff out there for general consumption, without really ((*thinking*)) about what you are about to post.

Honestly, I know you mean well and all that, but GOODNESS, to quote another very well known TV charachter (Andy Taylor from Mayberry)..."you beat all I ever saw" :laugh:

Bless your heart, I love ya brother.

 

[DHK]

DHK

:laugh::laugh:

DHK, brother....ITS NOT A CATHOLIC WEBSITE!! IT NEVER WAS A CATHOLIC WEBSITE!!!

Gosh...DHK do you just make it up as you go along???

Honestly brother, sometimes you remind me of Archie Bunker the way you just throw stuff out there for general consumption, without really ((*thinking*)) about what you are about to post.

Honestly, I know you mean well and all that, but GOODNESS, to quote another very well known TV charachter (Andy Taylor from Mayberry)..."you beat all I ever saw" :laugh:

Bless your heart, I love ya brother.

Slander and false accusations are no laughing matter.
No, I don't make things up as I go along.
I have gone out of my way, and very patiently, to show you that this site is:
1. not Baptistic.
2. is ecumenical.
3. is evangelical but interdenominational and therefore unable to preach the whole counsel of God.
4. recommends heretical churches such as the RCC.
I never said it is a Catholic site!

Here is what I said:

This is an ecumenical site. Its view on the church is wrong. Its view on many things is wrong. Remember we are discussing Baptist doctrine here. We are not ecumenical; they are. Their doctrine, by nature of its ecumenicity, must be contaminated. They are unable to preach the whole counsel of God.

Where did I say it is a Catholic website?

 

[DHK]

AIC, let me spell it out for you and hopefully no more time will be wasted on this subject. First let me repost the OP:

This is a theological question for my Landmark brethren that deny the concept of a 'Universal Church' consisting of all the redeemed. Let me state ahead that I am not interested in debating but rather to hear and think through your responses. So thanks ahead of time.

Now let me point out some obvious factors.

1. You are on a Baptist Board.
2. You are posting in a Baptist only forum.
3. The forum is Baptist Theology.
--That is we are discussing theology specific to Baptists.
4. This thread concerns Landmark Baptists, and only one specific doctrine that they believe.

The OP stated specifically that the question was for his "Landmark brethren that deny the concept of a "Universal Church."

Now, that being the case, there is no reason to try and defend the Universal Church by quoting from other denominational sites. The OP, if anything, would rather you quote from Landmark sites. He already knows what a universal church is.

Further down in the OP he says this:

This is not inventing a new definition for the greek word translated 'church' but rather a different application. Many instances could be pointed to in scripture used in a similiar fashion. The word Baptism is used in a literal sense (water baptism) and in figurative senses (judgement, sufferings, spirit, etc.). This is also true of other terms (kingdom, family, brother, etc.) where there is a literal meaning and a spiritual meaning.
I am curious if you are aware of any Landmark works that deal with this or you would be willing to offer your thoughts? (BTW, don't feel that you have to be guarded with your statements as I am only looking for general responses and not interested in debating this)

I hope this clears up some of this for you.
We are discussing Baptist doctrine, and very specific Baptist doctrine. Websites outside of those parameters are not needed. No more needs to be said on this matter.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

You just posted...

I never said it is a Catholic site!

Here is what you posted to me, and 7:47 pm tonight, on this thread... (bolding mine)

I never said we are the only Christians. I don't get my definition, for example, of the "Lord's Table" from a Catholic website. This is what you are doing.

You clearly accused me of getting information from a catholic cult website.

And now you say...

I never said it is a Catholic site!

Amazing.

 

[DHK]

DHK...

You just posted...

Here is what you posted to me, and 7:47 pm tonight, on this thread... (bolding mine)

You clearly accused me of getting information from a catholic cult website.

And now you say...

Amazing.

It is amazing that you would go to such lengths to falsely accuse me like this. Wake up, and read what I said. Here it is:

I never said we are the only Christians. I don't get my definition, for example, of the "Lord's Table" from a Catholic website. This is what you are doing. You are going to an interdenominational, ecumenical, non-Baptist website for definitions in a discussion regarding Baptist doctrine. Why not just use a Catholic website instead? Does this make any sense to you?

How convenient of you in your "quote" of me to leave out the words "for example. It was an example. I never said that is what you are doing. I gave an example of how you were quoting from sites that were non-Baptistic for Baptistic definitions. You might as well be drawing your definitions from a Catholic website if you are going down that route. I did not accuse of quoting from a Catholic website.

Is it convenient for you to leave out the words for example???

Are false accusations your way of debate? Do you like smear tactics?
Read the above quote again and understand what I said.
Then read the last post I made about the OP.
Stick to the OP and the topic at hand please!!!