foresight based election

[Jarthur001]

I'll be busy again after tonight, so I don't know when I'll be back to reply, but I will ASAP.

Other than deny Gods power, and giving glory to man, how is the so called "foresight based election" different than Calvinist view of election?


Thanks..

 

[jbh28]

I'll be busy again after tonight, so I don't know when I'll be back to reply, but I will ASAP.

Other than deny Gods power, and giving glory to man, how is the so called "foresight based election" different than Calvinist view of election?


Thanks..

In this definition of conditional election, I'm not sure there are any differences. From what I have seen, those that believe in conditional(foresight) election believe it was before the foundation of the world, but that God didn't choose "according to the good pleasure of His will" but by seeing who would believe and choosing them.

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.lulu.com/items/volume_60/928000/928860/2/print/Calvinism_Book.pdf

download this for free......then look at pages 166-168....

http://www.lulu.com/product/file-download/lectures-on-calvinism-and-arminianism/1210409

 

[Skandelon]

In this definition of conditional election, I'm not sure there are any differences. From what I have seen, those that believe in conditional(foresight) election believe it was before the foundation of the world, but that God didn't choose "according to the good pleasure of His will" but by seeing who would believe and choosing them.

I hope Calvinists on this board are educated enough to know that the "foresight of faith" view is not representative of serious scholars from the Arminian perspective.

Predestination: We believe that God has predestined for believers to be adopted as sons and conformed to the image of Christ, because that is what scripture actually says. Calvinists interpret those passages to mean that God predestines who will believe and who won't, but the verses regarding predestination never actually say that. In other words, we believe God has predetermined what he will do with those who choose to follow Christ, he doesn't predetermine who will and won't follow Christ.

Election: We believe that God has elected to reveal himself first to the Jew (law and prophets) and later to the Gentiles (through the gospel). In doing so he has provided people the means to enter into covenant with him. This is what Paul was speaking of in Romans 11 when he speaks of the Gentiles being "grafted into the vine." The Jews were "cut off" (which clearly doesn't mean they lose salvation), but that they lost the means by which they could enter covenant with God, but the Gentiles were "grafted in" so that they now have the opportunity to enter the covenant through faith. If the Jews "leave their unbelief" they can be grafted back in, so as to enter covenant with God and the Gentiles if they get prideful may be "cut off again" just like Israel. Again, does that mean they can lose their salvation individually? Obviously not, it means they can lose the means through which the can enter covenant with God...his election, or choice of a nation or group of people, grants them the means to enter covenant with Him. It has nothing to do with God individually choosing to save certain individuals to the neglect of all others. God does elect messengers individually, but that is not proof that he somehow elects those who will individually believe or reject their message.

 

[Tom Butler]

Election according to foreseen faith merely means we who believe elect ourselves.

 

[Dr. Bob]

Amen, Tom. Sad case for a "god"

Still amazed at people who don't understand that forKNOWING has nothing to do, even remotely, with forSEEING.

In eternity past God forKNEW me, forming an intimate relationship with me long before I was formed in my mother's womb.

If there were any "forSEEING", my tag line says the rest . .

 

[psalms109:31]

Foresight

I am not that much of a for-site person.

I believe God choose Israel, but cut out those for unbelief so they could not enter then He kept the meek and humble who trusted in the name of the Lord, included anyone who heard the Gospel of their salvation having believe. He will include those back that He cut out that could not enter because of unbelief. If they do not continue in their unbelief.

No man is chosen before the foundation of the world for salvation apart from Christ.

God doesn't need to look forward He has the end result.

This is the sovereign will of God to save those who believe trust in His Son and those who do not continue to condemnation.

We are not saved because of the will of man or their choice, but God choice.

God will have mercy on whom He will have mercy on.

 

[quantumfaith]

I hope Calvinists on this board are educated enough to know that the "foresight of faith" view is not representative of serious scholars from the Arminian perspective.

Predestination: We believe that God has predestined for believers to be adopted as sons and conformed to the image of Christ, because that is what scripture actually says. Calvinists interpret those passages to mean that God predestines who will believe and who won't, but the verses regarding predestination never actually say that. In other words, we believe God has predetermined what he will do with those who choose to follow Christ, he doesn't predetermine who will and won't follow Christ.

Election: We believe that God has elected to reveal himself first to the Jew (law and prophets) and later to the Gentiles (through the gospel). In doing so he has provided people the means to enter into covenant with him. This is what Paul was speaking of in Romans 11 when he speaks of the Gentiles being "grafted into the vine." The Jews were "cut off" (which clearly doesn't mean they lose salvation), but that they lost the means by which they could enter covenant with God, but the Gentiles were "grafted in" so that they now have the opportunity to enter the covenant through faith. If the Jews "leave their unbelief" they can be grafted back in, so as to enter covenant with God and the Gentiles if they get prideful may be "cut off again" just like Israel. Again, does that mean they can lose their salvation individually? Obviously not, it means they can lose the means through which the can enter covenant with God...his election, or choice of a nation or group of people, grants them the means to enter covenant with Him. It has nothing to do with God individually choosing to save certain individuals to the neglect of all others. God does elect messengers individually, but that is not proof that he somehow elects those who will individually believe or reject their message.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Great post Skandelon. Definitely not a sad position of who God is and how He operates in regard to predestination and election. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Rippon]

Predestination: Calvinists interpret those passages to mean that God predestines who will believe and who won't, but the verses regarding predestination never actually say that. In other words, we believe God has predetermined what he will do with those who choose to follow Christ, he doesn't predetermine who will and won't follow Christ.

In other words you believe that Eph.1:4,2Thess.2:13 and 2 Tim.1:9 (among other passages) can't really mean what they say. You think the Lord doesn't elect anyone according to His will and purpose.Your position is a sad one. Of course the Lord predetermines. Without His Divine intervention all of us would end up in perdition.

Election: It has nothing to do with God individually choosing to save certain individuals to the neglect of all others.

Of course the Lord has chosen individuals to receive salvation. That's what biblical election is :God doing the choosing --the electing. He has not chosen everyone.That's Universalism. He has chosen those He was pleased to elect.He mercies some and hardens others. Objections? Who are you to talk back to God?

 

[stilllearning]

Scripture is so clear in this area, how can ANYBODY deny that we were elected, because God foreknew, that we were going to accept His free gift..........
Romans 8:29
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

 

[Rippon]

Still amazed at people who don't understand that forKNOWING has nothing to do, even remotely, with forSEEING.

In eternity past God forKNEW me, forming an intimate relationship with me long before I was formed in my mother's womb.

If there were any "forSEEING", my tag line says the rest . .

Mr.Stilllearning,I will simply quote Dr.Bob on this.

 

[stilllearning]

Good morning Rippon

I have never pretended to fully understand this issue.....but the Bible’s coverage of the subject of salvation, seems to be placed into two categories:
(1)Salvation from our perspective:
(2)Salvation from God’s perspective:

Our perspective of salvation is future tense.............
Acts 16:31
“And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.”

While God’s perspective of salvation is past tense.........
Romans 8:29
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”
--------------------------------------------------
The fact is, a person must exercise faith in Christ, in order to be saved.
But when you look deeper, you learn that God foreknew that you were going to exercise this faith, therefore God elected to save you before you were born.

Therefore, from God’s perspective we were saved, before we were saved.....
John 17:6
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

We(the elect), were the Father’s, and at salvation He gives us to Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

Truth

I want to make known I am not a for-site person, but a foreknown person, foreknown is more personal.

Men like to make our salvation a less personal one, it makes it less attractive.

 

[Osage Bluestem]

God's forknowledge is the body of facts he knew before they existed in measurable time.

God has foreknowledge of everything.

When it speaks of those he forknew, however, it is speaking in an intimate manner. Those God knows in a special way, his chosen people, his friends.

 

[webdog]

In other words you believe that Eph.1:4,2Thess.2:13 and 2 Tim.1:9 (among other passages) can't really mean what they say. You think the Lord doesn't elect anyone according to His will and purpose.

Actually, Rippon, we believe just that. We differ on our understanding of "His will and purpose". Your position doesn't hold the corner on absolute truth in this regard no matter how many calvinists will chime in on this thread and say they do.

 

[webdog]

God's forknowledge is the body of facts he knew before they existed in measurable time.

God has foreknowledge of everything.

When it speaks of those he forknew, however, it is speaking in an intimate manner. Those God knows in a special way, his chosen people, his friends.

As a non calvinist, I agree with everything here.

I will add that I believe phrases speaking of God in regards to time are anthropomorphic in nature, as God is not only timeless but omnipresent.

 

[Tom Butler]

Romans 8 is clear. Paul speaks of those WHOM God foreknew, not WHAT he foreknew. While God does know all things, including all future events and human decisions, the difference between knowing what and knowing whom is significant.

The way I see it, God's foreknowledge is based on his decrees as the First Cause, not on his reacting to what he foresees. God knows because that's what he decided, not decides because of what or whom he foreknows.

 

[Jarthur001]

Aside from the universalism that one posted and another agreed with, I would like more detail of just how foresight works in election. (Sorry, I just don't want to waste my time on Universalism.)

We have seen the two verses...

Romans 8:29
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate [to be] conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.”

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”

As has been pointed out this is foreknowing, not foresight. But lets say that it could mean foresight for the moment. How does election then work based on foresight?

Lets take Paul a believer, and Cain a non-believer.

We all agree that the choice came from God, and that the choice was before the man was made.

Eph 1...

4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,

How did God use foresight to choose Paul before he was made?
How did God use foresight not to choose Cain before he was made?

Could Cain have been saved after he was made based on foresight?
Could Paul reject God, even till his death, after he was made based on forsight?

 

[Iconoclast]

stilllearning
you said this;

Therefore, from God’s perspective we were saved, before we were saved.....
John 17:6
“I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.”

We(the elect), were the Father’s, and at salvation He gives us to Christ.

but 2 tim1 says the giving was before creation;

9Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

Is that okay? Does that inform your understanding?
God's election of us happened before time.That is why salvation is 100%
of God. We were not there to do anything about it anyhow.God does not have to wait for us, and does not say he waits to see what we might do.
All men were born in sin and perishing in sin,God saves a multitude.
Those he has purposed to save,he grants repentance and faith to savingly believe the gospel.
This is the teaching of scripture...it never says it differently.

 

[psalms109:31]

Sad

See people want to believe God choose an individual to be saved on contrary He didn't. He chose Christ and those who are in Him before the foundation of the world. If any say it is God who saved then they would trust God

He chose a whole nation, but those who couldn't enter was because of unbelief not because they are not chosen.

In the end He chose those that trust in His Son to enter into the salvation that is only in Christ.

We are not worthy apart from Him.

I have never seen a guarentee in election, because of Israel. The only guarentee I have found in scripture is those who trust in Jesus will not be disappointed or put to shame. I will trust God and His word over men in an understanding they can't even coprehend.

So it is to them that He elected to salvation and will condemn those who do not, plain and simple. It isn't and individual because the one's who He told that was chosen before the foundation of the world was those who believed already trusted in Jesus, it wasn't said about anyone apart from Jesus.

Paul didn't have to to remind them of why they were there.