Bible Study: God's Foreknowledge

[Winman]

ok... I see where you are coming from and where you are getting your interpretation. I just interpret differently. I don't see James saying that God chose them because they were rich in faith.

But James IS saying they are chosen because they are rich in faith. He is trying to dispel the false teaching that riches are a sign of favor, and poverty a sign of cursing. And James is directly saying God chose the poor who are rich in faith.
Man judges according to the eye, but God sees the heart.

 

[Van]

Difficult Greek

I can say that God doesn't choose people because they are poor, because many millions of poor people do not believe in Christ. There are many millions of poor people who are Muslims, or Hindus, or Buddists. They cannot be saved because they deny Jesus Christ.
But nobody who has faith in Jesus is not chosen.

The point James is making is that we are not to despise the poor. To understand this you must understand that the Jews falsely believed that wealth was a sign that a man was held in favor by God, and that poverty was a sign that a man was hated by God.
This is why when Jesus said how hardly shall a rich man enter the kingdom of heaven that the disciples were exceedingly amazed and exclaimed, WHO THEN CAN BE SAVED? (Mat 19:25)
This was the common mindset of the Jews in that day, but James was showing this error, God was not partial against the poor, and that many were chosen because they were rich in faith. It was a constant theme in the OT that the poor were oppressed and exploited by the rich and powerful, and that these poor cried out to God to help them, their trust was in God. But the religious leaders taught the people falsely that God loved and blessed the rich, and hated and cursed the poor.
And even today people carry many false doctrines because of false teachers.
So James was trying to overcome this predjudice brought about through false teaching.

Calvinism must reject James 2:5 and therefore they defend the rejection with alternate interpretations of the Greek grammar. But clearly the poor where chosen, and they were of the world. So even if Calvinists deny they were chosen because of their faith, as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, there is no getting around the fact that the election for salvation occurring during their lifetime and not before creation.

 

[jbh28]

Calvinism must reject James 2:5 and therefore they defend the rejection with alternate interpretations of the Greek grammar. But clearly the poor where chosen, and they were of the world. So even if Calvinists deny they were chosen because of their faith, as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, there is no getting around the fact that the election for salvation occurring during their lifetime and not before creation.

come on, I was trying to be nice. James 2:5 says nothing about a person being chosen BECAUSE he is in faith. You are reading something into the text. And since you mentioned "Greek grammar" why don't you share with us the "Greek grammar"?

I already showed you 2 Thess 2:13 and how the grammar there clearly shows that "faith" and "sanctification" are for the salvation. God doesn't need to be sanctified nor have faith in order to choose us.

 

[Van]

Claims that you have demonstrated this or that carry no weight. Your rebuttal was errant.

If you understood the grammar of James 2:5, you would understand they were chosen as "rich in faith." And 2 Thess 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth.

If a person is saved through faith, that means faith is the basis of salvation. It is like saying enter the room through the door. You must go through the door in order to enter the room, and you must have faith that God has credited as righteousness in order to be chosen for salvation.

 

[Van]

"God doesn't need to be sanctified nor have faith in order to choose us."

Now that is quite a bunny trail.

 

[jbh28]

But James IS saying they are chosen because they are rich in faith. He is trying to dispel the false teaching that riches are a sign of favor, and poverty a sign of cursing. And James is directly saying God chose the poor who are rich in faith.
Man judges according to the eye, but God sees the heart.

The problem is that the neither the word "because" and nor the words "to be" are in the text. Let's read it your way, then mine.

We have to remember, there are two parts, not just one.
"Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

The two parts are, "rich in faith" and "heirs of the kingdom."
Now, here's your interpretation.

Hath not God chosen the poor of this world [because they are] rich in faith, and [because they are] heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

here's why I don't like that. Chosen for what? The verse doesn't say. God has chosen the rich in faith and the heirs to the kingdom because they are rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom.

My view.

Hath not God chosen the poor of this world [to be] rich in faith, and [to be] heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

remember, when election happened, it was before you and I were born (Ephesians 1:4).

And of course, the NASB and the ESV translators agree with me on this passage.

Here's the NASB rendering.

Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

I understand that the words "to be" are not in the Greek, but according to the NASB translators, it is implied. That's why the NASB put the words "to be" in italics.

In the KJV, it almost seems as if God is choosing those that are poor and rich in faith. But if we are going to use the word "because" we must use it with poor as well.

 

[jbh28]

Claims that you have demonstrated this or that carry no weight. Your rebuttal was errant.

please share...

If you understood the grammar of James 2:5, you would understand they were chosen as "rich in faith." And 2 Thess 2:13 says we are chosen through belief in the truth.

it doesn't say "chosen through belief" so please stop saying that it does. You are taking words out.

If a person is saved through faith, that means faith is the basis of salvation. It is like saying enter the room through the door. You must go through the door in order to enter the room, and you must have faith that God has credited as righteousness in order to be chosen for salvation.

I have always maintained that salvation is through faith. But nowhere does it say we have to have faith in order to be chosen.

 

[jbh28]

"God doesn't need to be sanctified nor have faith in order to choose us."

Now that is quite a bunny trail.

If you are going to apply that to the choosing, God remember is the one choosing. Does God choose through faith? No, we are saved through our person faith. We are saved though our person sanctification of the spirit. God isn't sanctified in the spirit in order to choose us.

 

[Iconoclast]

I see several assertions without support.

God must change a person's heart before they can be saved? I see a reference to Romans 3:10-20 but no where in that passage does it refer to changing a person's heart.

But since you brought it up, what you apparently believe is that no one understands at any time. I can add to scripture too and say no one understands at all times. Because when a person is sinning, and we all sin, we do not understand because our mind is set on flesh.

Yes, I believe God in psalm14....and Paul did to, that is why he quotes it in rom3

 

[Iconoclast]

Many offer the argument that corporate election includes every individual within the group. I think the election or choice of a target group, whoever believes, is a valid concept.

Similarly, I think He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, refers to a corporate election, He chose His Redeemer and therefore "chose" the target group of His plan. Moving forward in time to our present state in Christ, we can say He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world because we entered the chosen group - believers in Christ.

Our individual election, during our lifetime, after we lived not as a people and without mercy (1 Peter 2:9-10) includes much of the individual rather than group actions you mentioned.

It is not for you ,or anyone else to change the meaning God has assigned to the scripture.

here is more error;
[QUOTECalvinism must reject James 2:5 and therefore they defend the rejection with alternate interpretations of the Greek grammar. But clearly the poor where chosen, and they were of the world. So even if Calvinists deny they were chosen because of their faith, as 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, there is no getting around the fact that the election for salvation occurring during their lifetime and not before creation.
][/QUOTE]

No one is chosen because of faith, No one is saved because of faith..it is always by, or through faith,,,never because of.
election happened before the world was created...not during our lifetime.

 

[Iconoclast]

John 15:19 says God chose us out of the world. Therefore our election for salvation occurred after we were in the world. And when we were in the world, we were chosen through belief in the truth.

You misuse this verse as he speaks of calling the apostles out of the world.

27And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.


King James Version (KJV)

 

[Iconoclast]

The entire concept of Calvinism only works by twisting the scripture like the Jehovah's Witnesses, and all the other cults do. Now, I never said there is any likeness between this cult and the Calvinists, only that they use the same method to prove a point the bible does not teach. It isn't my fault that both mentioned theologies use the same method.

This isn't saying that they are equivalent in any other way. I do not view Calvinism as a cult, like I do the Jehovah's Witnesses. However, the Calvinists hand pick certain scriptures that deal with election and ignore God's call to man to repent and believe the Gospel. God would not tell man to repent and come to Christ for salvation while knowing that this was not possible. This makes God a liar, which He cannot be. Therefore, Calvinism is wrong, plain and simple.

God commands all men everywhere to repent....you are bearing false witness when you say this;

However, the Calvinists hand pick certain scriptures that deal with election and ignore God's call to man to repent and believe the Gospel.

 

[Iconoclast]

And I completely disagree with you, God cannot have an intimate and personal relationship with an unforgiven sinner. You cannot even approach God until your sins are washed away through the blood of Christ. This is why Jesus said, NO MAN COMETH UNTO THE FATHER BUT BY ME.
So, you can insist your view is correct all you want, but it is totally unscriptural.

Again you oppose scriptural truth;

6For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

7For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

8But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

This is bible 101.....and you resist it.

 

[Iconoclast]

We all might suffer from that error.

My view does not ignore the teaching of the text. Lets take 1 Timothy 1:9.

What was given to us before time began? God chose Christ to be His Redeemer and therefore gave to all those in Christ grace from before the ages began. Therefore we have received a blessing from before the foundation of the world, just as Ephesians 1:3-4 says.

In choosing Christ Jesus as the elect servant, he does not choose Him in a vacuum. We are chosen In Him, In union with Christ,He comes and dies a covenant death for His elect.

 

[Winman]

The problem is that the neither the word "because" and nor the words "to be" are in the text. Let's read it your way, then mine.

We have to remember, there are two parts, not just one.
"Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

The two parts are, "rich in faith" and "heirs of the kingdom."
Now, here's your interpretation.

Hath not God chosen the poor of this world [because they are] rich in faith, and [because they are] heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

here's why I don't like that. Chosen for what? The verse doesn't say. God has chosen the rich in faith and the heirs to the kingdom because they are rich in faith and heirs to the kingdom.

Hath not God chosen the poor of this world [to be] rich in faith, and [to be] heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him"

And of course, the NASB and the ESV translators agree with me on this passage.

I understand that the words "to be" are not in the Greek, but according to the NASB translators, it is implied. That's why the NASB put the words "to be" in italics.

James is rebuking those Jews who held the poor in contempt. He is simply showing them this is wrong by stating the fact that God has chosen the poor who are rich in faith, and also saying they are the heirs of the kingdom. It is simply a statement of fact in the form of a rhetorical question that demands a "yes" answer.
And what a shock that the MVs add "to be"! So much for those who claim there is no difference. You admit these words are not in the Greek but prefer them because it agrees with your doctrine.

 

[Winman]

"God doesn't need to be sanctified nor have faith in order to choose us."

Now that is quite a bunny trail.

Yes, you are completey going off the tracks here jbh28, this reasoning makes no sense at all.

We are required to have faith to be saved. Faith in Jesus is the one and only condition required for salvation. So how can you be elect without faith?

But this does not require God to have faith in order to make a choice at all.

 

[Van]

Reply to Iconoclast

Hi Iconoclast, you wrote:

"You misuse this verse as he speaks of calling the apostles out of the world."

I came to this board hoping to achieve a more accurate understanding of scripture, and today, my hope and prayer has been answered. You are correct, I have been misusing John 15:19 as a supporting verse for election for salvation occurring when we are alive and living in the world. He was choosing, not calling, His apostles and disciples, those who had been with Him from the beginning of His public ministry.

This course correction does not in any way invalidate the point I was supporting, it just knocks out one errant support. We still have 1 Peter 2:9-10, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-28, Romans 8:33, 2 Timothy 2:10, 1 Peter 1:2, and Revelation 17:14.

BTW, In Revelation 17:14, we see a nice summary verse of my Soteriology, those that are with the Lord are those who are the called and chosen and faithful.

When are called? When we hear the gospel during our lifetime, and when we respond to the gospel affirmatively and God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, we become "the called" and are chosen through our belief in the truth.

When God accepts our faith as sufficient for His purpose and spiritually baptizes us into Christ we are the chosen (being placed in Christ by the Spirit) and during our spiritual baptism God converts us and protects our faith and gives us the Holy Spirit to help us walk humbly with our Lord, and therefore we are faithful in core beliefs, even if we stumble and enter heaven as one escaping from a fire.

In choosing Christ Jesus as the elect servant, he does not choose Him in a vacuum. We are chosen In Him, In union with Christ,He comes and dies a covenant death for His elect.
I think this view has been fully shown to be in error. Everyone is born spiritually dead, and we become alive with Christ when we are spiritually placed in Christ. So the union found in scripture occurs during our lifetime. We were chosen in Him corporately, because your view requires that God elect us individually twice.

 

[jbh28]

James is rebuking those Jews who held the poor in contempt. He is simply showing them this is wrong by stating the fact that God has chosen the poor who are rich in faith, and also saying they are the heirs of the kingdom. It is simply a statement of fact in the form of a rhetorical question that demands a "yes" answer.
And what a shock that the MVs add "to be"! So much for those who claim there is no difference. You admit these words are not in the Greek but prefer them because it agrees with your doctrine.

Again, if you are going to say that God chose "because"(a word that isn't there) they are rich in faith, you must also say "because" they are poor. They are right there together.

there is no difference when you interpret Scripture properly.

 

[jbh28]

Yes, you are completey going off the tracks here jbh28, this reasoning makes no sense at all.

We are required to have faith to be saved. Faith in Jesus is the one and only condition required for salvation. So how can you be elect without faith?

But this does not require God to have faith in order to make a choice at all.

No, I'm just showing you how he is applying the verse. It says "salvation through sanctification... and belief" not "election though..." We are saved through personal faith in Christ, that is true. You are elected before the foundation of the world. Did you have faith then?

 

[Tom Butler]

I have found these verses to be instructive in a discussion of foreknowledge:

Galatians 1:15 (Paul writing) But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased....

Isaiah 49:1 (Isaiah writing about himself) Listen to me, you islands; hear this, you distant nations: Before I was born the LORD called me; from my birth he has made mention of my name.

Jeremiah 1:5 (Jeremiah quoting God) Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.

Hmmm, God knew Jeremiah before he was born, actually knew him before he was conceived. God knew. Before. Can you say foreknew?

In each case, God is the actor, not the reactor. He is the one who calls; before they were born, before they were saved.

I think in each case, God's foreknowledge involved whom he foreknew, not what.