Questions in the face of disaster

[Rippon]

I am more convinced that Calvinism is a sham than you are that our non-Calvinistic view is anti-scriptural.

So you think Calvinism is deceitful? You think we're just spinning lies?

You object to what you think is Calvinism,but surely you are not saying that we purposefully are out to con people,are you?!

In fact, I was talking about this issue this past Sunday at church with the Sunday school class I attend. I stated that this Calvinistic doctrine is one of the worst things the Baptist church has to deal with today.

Calvinistic doctrine incorporates the whole counsel of the Word of God. You need to narrow-down what you have problems with. I have told you in the past that you actually need to read works by Calvinists before you spout off as you do. You might have a lot more agreement than you currently understand.

If you think Calvinism is the worst thing that Baptist churches have to confront these days you are woefully uninformed. I think that there are a lot of damaging perspectives being taught by some in churches today which are against the Scriptures. Calvinism,in proclaiming the Word of God -- is exalting the Savior. I don't know why you persist in your ways Robert.

 

[Rippon]

Being able to manipulate bible verses to prove non-biblical principles is not what God intended nor is it a true representation of the
Gospel.

I would like you to explain why the verses I furnished in post #20 do not mean what they say.

No manipulation was going on. You are a cause of concern Robert.

 

[Van]

Reply to Jarthur001

I think these and many others are clear. Saying I do not understand is simply disparaging me rather than addressing my view.

I did read the context of all three verses and those contexts seemed to me to support my view.

Next, why would I google a word rather than flip open an exhaustive concordance?

Does the parable say something happened by chance, i.e not by deterministic control? Yes. Do you have a scripture which supports your view. Please provide the reference.

Bottom line, scripture in verse after verse indicates things happen other than by prearrangement. The assertion that everything is deterministically controlled simply is not supported in the Bible.

Ecc 9:11 says time and chance overtake them all, and does not say only in a fictional world without God. Rewriting scripture to support doctrine is what divides the body of Christ.
BTW, the bottom line for this book is "love God and enjoy life."

 

[Robert Snow]

So you think Calvinism is deceitful? You think we're just spinning lies?

You object to what you think is Calvinism,but surely you are not saying that we purposefully are out to con people,are you?!

Of course not. I know you believe what you preach. I think it is wrong none the less. All churches and even the cults believe they are correct, but they are wrong.

 

[Rippon]

Of course not. I know you believe what you preach. I think it is wrong none the less. All churches and even the cults believe they are correct, but they are wrong.

Well then, you'll have to renounce what you said earlier about Calvinism being a sham. Since you recognize that we are sincere in what we preach --that we believe it is biblical --then in no way,manner or form is it a sham. (Maybe you didn't know the meaning of the word "sham" when you first posted.)

 

[Van]

Reply to Rippon

A sham is something false or empty that is purported to be genuine.

Four of the five doctrines of grace I believe to be shams.

See post 31 which addressed your take in post 20.

 

[Ron Wood]

Someone asked for a passage of Scripture that says that everything happens because of God rather than chance. Well I can think of no better ones that these:

(Rom 11:34) For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

(Rom 11:35) Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?

(Rom 11:36) For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

(1Co 8:6) But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

 

[Luke2427]

Say whatever you want to Luke. Whatever you want to. Like or not, agree with it or not, you are doing nothing except holding to your view of the Bible and its message. Oh and BTW, nothing I said to YOU or Rippon was in anyway disrespectful, simply a position that YOU have taken, one of complete determiminism.

the fact is that you cannot support this human notion that things happen at random, EVEN under god's allowance, from the BIBLE.

You made it up, quantum. You made it up or you got it from somebody who made it up.

It MOST CERTAINLY did not come from ANY honest exposition of Scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

I stated that this Calvinistic doctrine is one of the worst thing the Baptist church has to deal with today. That this view is not only not supported by the Word of God, but that it is dangerous to the cause of Christ.

NNE who knows ANYTHING about church history could purport such utter, mindless, nonsense.

Calvinism has produced the greatest revivals, the greatest preachers, the greatest missionaries and the greatest nation this world has EVER KNOWN.

To say that that the theology that circumnavigated the globe with the Gospel of Christ and gave us the Protestant Reformation and the King James Bible and the Pilgrims and the Puritans and the Great Awakening is dangerous is absolutely untenable.

What has this nameless theology that you people just made up in the last 75 years ever done?

NOTHING.

It is OK for you to be ignorant of church history- but at least have the character to not infect vulnerable, uneducated people who are easily influenced with it.

Because the most DANGEROUS thing we have to deal with in this age in our culture is IGNORANCE coupled with a total lack of humility which drives one to spout out ignorant remarks like this one above.

 

[Robert Snow]

Well then, you'll have to renounce what you said earlier about Calvinism being a sham. Since you recognize that we are sincere in what we preach --that we believe it is biblical --then in no way,manner or form is it a sham. (Maybe you didn't know the meaning of the word "sham" when you first posted.)

Let me explain.

I was thinking more along the lines of someone who believes an error, thinking it is legitimate.

I believe Calvinism is a sham, the doctrine, but not necessarily the ones who believe it. They are sincere, just sincerely wrong.

 

[Robert Snow]

NNE who knows ANYTHING about church history could purport such utter, mindless, nonsense.

Calvinism has produced the greatest revivals, the greatest preachers, the greatest missionaries and the greatest nation this world has EVER KNOWN.

To say that that the theology that circumnavigated the globe with the Gospel of Christ and gave us the Protestant Reformation and the King James Bible and the Pilgrims and the Puritans and the Great Awakening is dangerous is absolutely untenable.

What has this nameless theology that you people just made up in the last 75 years ever done?

NOTHING.

It is OK for you to be ignorant of church history- but at least have the character to not infect vulnerable, uneducated people who are easily influenced with it.

Because the most DANGEROUS thing we have to deal with in this age in our culture is IGNORANCE coupled with a total lack of humility which drives one to spout out ignorant remarks like this one above.

I believe one of your greatest problems is that you seem to worship church history more than anything else. You constantly allude to things that are old as though this makes them legitimate. You need to look at what the bible says, not what people like Calvin say.

You Calvinists seem to be the ones who strain at a gnat yet don't see the big picture. You cannot see the forest for the trees. You assign attributes to God in a way that make Him a monster, not a loving God. While you dissect one verse of scripture to make it fit into Calvinism, you fail to see the overall nature of God. Stand back from this doctrinally challenged system and look at the totality of God's working with man. God didn't make us robots, he gave us free will and desires that we love Him; He doesn't force us. This idea goes against the message of the Gospel.

 

[Luke2427]

I believe one of your greatest problems is that you seem to worship church history more than anything else. You constantly allude to things that are old as though this makes them legitimate. You need to look at what the bible says, not what people like Calvin say.

You Calvinists seem to be the ones who strain at a gnat yet don't see the big picture. You cannot see the forest for the trees. You assign attributes to God in a way that make Him a monster, not a loving God. While you dissect one verse of scripture to make it fit into Calvinism, you fail to see the overall nature of God. Stand back from this doctrinally challenged system and look at the totality of God's working with man. God didn't make us robots, he gave us free will and desires that we love Him; He doesn't force us. This idea goes against the message of the Gospel.

No Robert. The REASON God has so mightily used Calvinism is BECAUSE it is biblical.

The reason I pointed out Church History here is because of the remark you made about it being dangerous. No thinking person who knows anything about Christian history can look at what Calvinism has done for this world and say it is DANGEROUS.

You are not educated enough to be making remarks like this. You are dangerous to ignorant people who might be fooled into thinking you know what you are talking about.

You don't have to agree with the DoG but to make ignorant remarks like this proves you are not qualified to speak on the matter.

You can be an Arminian or an adherer to this new nameless theology you people have developed and recognize the great contributions that the DoG have made to the Kingdom of God in the last 500 years.

What you cannot be, is an intelligent, informed Christian of ANY persuasion and say what you said.

Until you become informed and educated on these matters, you ought not speak on them lest you be like the ones Jude condemns as deadly to the faith once delivered unto the saints:

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.​

And like what Paul said in Romans 16:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.​

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[Rippon]

Earthquakes kill indiscriminately (Christians and non-Christians alike) as do any man made and natural disasters.

You don't think that the Lord determines the day and hour of the death of every single person? Don't you believe that He ordains that very thing?

It is certainly not indiscriminate. That same goes for the lives He chooses to spare.

 

[Robert Snow]

No Robert. The REASON God has so mightily used Calvinism is BECAUSE it is biblical.

The reason I pointed out Church History here is because of the remark you made about it being dangerous. No thinking person who knows anything about Christian history can look at what Calvinism has done for this world and say it is DANGEROUS.

You are not educated enough to be making remarks like this. You are dangerous to ignorant people who might be fooled into thinking you know what you are talking about.

You don't have to agree with the DoG but to make ignorant remarks like this proves you are not qualified to speak on the matter.

You can be an Arminian or an adherer to this new nameless theology you people have developed and recognize the great contributions that the DoG have made to the Kingdom of God in the last 500 years.

What you cannot be, is an intelligent, informed Christian of ANY persuasion and say what you said.

Until you become informed and educated on these matters, you ought not speak on them lest you be like the ones Jude condemns as deadly to the faith once delivered unto the saints:

But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.​

And like what Paul said in Romans 16:

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. 18For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.​

.

Luke, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. You worship at the feet of Calvin and don't even realize it.

 

[Robert Snow]

The fact that God has given man free will to either accept the Gospel or reject it is so plain in the totality of scripture, it is unbelievable that some don't see it.

 

[Luke2427]

The fact that God has given man free will to either accept the Gospel or reject it is so plain in the totality of scripture, it is unbelievable that some don't see it.

Have the courage to support this claim. I think it is nonsense.

I think all you could provide is verses that seem to IMPLY it to our carnal mind and I bet that you cannot provide ONE SINGLE VERSE that explicitly states it. Not one.

Unless by "free will" you mean the ability to do what you want to do. In which case NO CALVINIST would disagree that free will exists.

 

[Robert Snow]

I think it is nonsense.

This describes Calvinism completely.

Unless by "free will" you mean the ability to do what you want to do. In which case NO CALVINIST would disagree that free will exists.

Free will is the ability to choose or to reject God and the Gospel.

 

[Luke2427]

This describes Calvinism completely.



Free will is the ability to choose or to reject God and the Gospel.

Then it does not exist according to the Word of God.

Jesus said, "No man can come to me except my Father draw him."

Robert, you are going to have to make up your mind if you are going to believe the Bible or what suits you.

 

[Robert Snow]

Then it does not exist according to the Word of God.

Jesus said, "No man can come to me except my Father draw him."

Robert, you are going to have to make up your mind if you are going to believe the Bible or what suits you.

I believe the bible, not Calvinism. Jesus told sinners to come to Him. He wouldn't tell people to come if they could not come. I don't think Jesus lies. To tell people to come who couldn't come would be deceptive. Maybe this works for the Calvinists, but it doesn't work for me.

 

[Jerome]

"I may add also with no little indignation, that there have been some men who have never been able to grasp the Gospel in its integrity in order to present the Grace of God to men’s minds at once in its sovereignty and in its freeness. Though their sermons sometimes ring with the clear melodious note of Grace of God, they are too often bent on qualifying the extent of its welcome and inventing explanations of their own, to wrest the simple meaning of Scriptures.
Calvinists, such men may call themselves, but, unlike the Reformer whose name they adopt, they bring a system of divinity to the Bible to interpret it, instead of making every system, by its merits what they may, yield and give place to the pure and unadulterated Word of God." —Charles Spurgeon, "Effects of Sound Doctrine"