Randomness in the Bible?

[Luke2427]

Define random for us, Luke...in your OWN words.

It is pointless to define anything for you. You will just ignore it when I do.

 

[Luke2427]

Hi Luke, yes these examples demonstrate to my satisfication that exhaustive determinism is a mistaken view of scripture. There are several verses that demonstrate things happen by chance, rather than being predetermined. There are several passages that indicate we make choices, rather than non-choices. And there are several passages where God intervenes to bring about what He desires, which would not happen if all circumstance was predetermined. So yes, that is all I have. God's word against the traditions of men.

You say there are several- you provided one and it was very ambiguous; certainly not enough to prove anything.

Where are the others??

 

[webdog]

It is pointless to define anything for you. You will just ignore it when I do.

Thanks, I knew you wouldn't do it. You are indeed consistent...and dishonest. You have failed to define anything anyone asks you. As has already been pointed out to you, copying and pasting things with the word contained within IS NOT DEFINING the word.

Since you want to keep everyone guessing all of the time on what you mean when you say anything (randomness in the Bible for instance) I think it is clear who holds to the "nameless" theology here.

 

[Luke2427]

I don't believe I have said if I support randomness or not. But I do find it an interesting philosophical topic. Just because a person asks questions and expects answers does not mean their support or do not support the idea. It does mean they are looking for answers or at least rational explanations.

Fair enough.

You are letting your emotions get in the way of your replies.

This is perfectly possible.

Are you saying it is impossible for God to let something happen randomly, that is exercise his permissive will? There is that which is called God's perfect will and then then is God's permissive will.

Yes. God cannot be in control and not in control at the same time.

He controls even the outcome of the casting of lots according to the Scripture as I have demonstrated.

This does not undermine the freedom and responsibility of man. But it recognizes that God does not forfeit his sovereignty over any PART of his creation.

Your proof texts in themselves mean little. We can prove just about anything we want by selective picking scripture.

You just abandoned the use of Scripture in a theological debate.

It is not just proof texting if the passages are in context.

Bible is NECESSARY to prove things... well... BIBLICALLY.

 

[Luke2427]

Thanks, I knew you wouldn't do it. You are indeed consistent...and dishonest. You have failed to define anything anyone asks you. As has already been pointed out to you, copying and pasting things with the word contained within IS NOT DEFINING the word.

Since you want to keep everyone guessing all of the time on what you mean when you say anything (randomness in the Bible for instance) I think it is clear who holds to the "nameless" theology here.

If I point you to a post where I defined it will you start a thread of apology saying, "I was wrong and Luke was right..."?

 

[Van]

Hi Luke, one verse is all one needs if correctly understood. God's word is trustworthy and reliable and profitable for correction.

And again, anytime someone wants me to "prove" something, a red flag goes up. I can provide evidence that is sufficent for me and for others to accept the premise. If you care to accept it, great. But please do set the standard that I must prove something to your satisfication. Or claim because you rejected it, I did not make the case which others would accept as "proof."

 

[Skandelon]

I never cease to be amazed at how many hoops folks will jump through in order to deny the sovereignty of God. No the Bible doesn't tell us everything but it certanly does tell us about whether things happen at random or not.

So the question still remains: Can the idea of randomness be supported by the Scriptures?

Originally Posted by Luke2427: You have no Bible for this unorthodox idea that God has created a world in which BILLIONS of events happen at random every day and ignore the fact that the Bible EXPLICITLY states that God is bringing to pass EVERY event according to his will- no exceptions.

This is a false dichotomy.

You two make it appear things must happen by God's direct agency or its completely random. There is the "permissive" aspect of God's decree, remember the definition of decree you refused to address or supply, Luke?

Crabtownboy is now appearing to be appealing to that aspect of God's decree (one that even Edwards acknowledged and taught) but you still can't seem to recognize the distinction between what God actively DOES and what God passively PERMITS, something even Calvinists and Arminians historically have been able to agree upon. :tear:

 

[webdog]

If I point you to a post where I defined it will you start a thread of apology saying, "I was wrong and Luke was right..."?

Good luck with that. I will...and I believe Skan said he would give you a check for $1000 as well if you did.

Are you going to define "randomness" for us as well?

 

[Van]

If I was in armed conflict, lets say more than 1000 BC, and shot an arrow without taking specific aim and the arrow happened to hit an opponent right between two pieces of his armor, I would think the wound happened by chance. But another might say, no Van, you are wrong. God controlled that flight not with long standing rules of physics, but guided it to accomplish his specific predetermined purpose for that shot.

Of course he would be making that all up, all we know is it happened without specific intent. Anyone can add to scripture, but if we stick to what it says, sometimes arrows are shot at random.

 

[Luke2427]

Hi Luke, one verse is all one needs if correctly understood. God's word is trustworthy and reliable and profitable for correction.

And again, anytime someone wants me to "prove" something, a red flag goes up. I can provide evidence that is sufficent for me and for others to accept the premise. If you care to accept it, great. But please do set the standard that I must prove something to your satisfication. Or claim because you rejected it, I did not make the case which others would accept as "proof."

Then you do not have any others, right?

 

[Luke2427]

Good luck with that. I will...and I believe Skan said he would give you a check for $1000 as well if you did.

Are you going to define "randomness" for us as well?

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1658769#post1658769

This is the Westminster Confession of Faith defining "decree" for us; unarguably the greatest words ever written in description of this matter.

It also contains the Baptist Confession of Faith defining "decree".

This is not the first time I have referenced these confessions.

BTW, the argument that what is provided there is not a definition is absurd. Look up the word definition. Furthermore, consider that confessions EXIST to DEFINE our beliefs on theological matters.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Randomness or chance in the Bible:

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I have seen something else under the sun:

The race is not to the swift

or the battle to the strong,

nor does food come to the wise

or wealth to the brilliant

or favor to the learned;

but time and chance happen to them all.

2 Chronicles 18:33 But someone drew his bow at random and hit the king of Israel between the sections of his armor. The king told the chariot driver, “Wheel around and get me out of the fighting. I’ve been wounded.”

I added the bold.

 

[Luke2427]

This is a false dichotomy.

You two make it appear things must happen by God's direct agency or its completely random. There is the "permissive" aspect of God's decree, remember the definition of decree you refused to address or supply, Luke?

Crabtownboy is now appearing to be appealing to that aspect of God's decree (one that even Edwards acknowledged and taught) but you still can't seem to recognize the distinction between what God actively DOES and what God passively PERMITS, something even Calvinists and Arminians historically have been able to agree upon. :tear:

No, it does not have to happen by direct agency but it must happen as part of God's plan and it must happen as a result of God's power and it cannot exist unless God planned and purposed it to in eternity past.

ran·dom
   /ˈrændəm/ Show Spelled[ran-duhm] Show IPA
–adjective
1.
proceeding, made, or occurring without definite aim, reason, or pattern: the random selection of numbers.
—Idiom
6.
at random, without definite aim, purpose, method, or adherence to a prior arrangement; in a haphazard way: Contestants were chosen at random from the studio audience.

Not possible- really, quite blasphemous, imo.

 

[Luke2427]

Randomness or chance in the Bible:





I added the bold.

Randomness only exists on OUR part. That has nothing at all to do with God allowing things to happen at random on his part.

The point of that very passage is that the arrow did NOT hit Ahab at random. God said EXACTLY how he would die and God killed him. Ahab's death was planned, purposed, prophesied and empowered by God. God brought it to pass by DESIGN.

This is the exact OPPOSITE of the definition of the word "random".

6.
at random, without definite aim, purpose, method, or adherence to a prior arrangement; in a haphazard way: Contestants were chosen at random from the studio audience.

It was ONLY random on the part of the man drawing the bow. It was not at ALL random on the part of God.

 

[Skandelon]

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1658769#post1658769

This is the Westminster Confession of Faith defining "decree" for us; unarguably the greatest words ever written in description of this matter.

It also contains the Baptist Confession of Faith defining "decree".

This is not the first time I have referenced these confessions.

BTW, the argument that what is provided there is not a definition is absurd. Look up the word definition. Furthermore, consider that confessions EXIST to DEFINE our beliefs on theological matters.

A confessional document that uses the word in the same manner that you have used it does not qualify as a definition. And regarding the statement:

"“God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:”

You have only replaced the word "decree" with the word "ordain" which is the OTHER word I requested that you define back when we first started this quest for definitions. :BangHead:

Pick a theological dictionary and copy and paste the definition of decree and ordain that you are comfortable with and we can move on Luke, its not that difficult.

 

[Amy.G]

Randomness or chance in the Bible:

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I have seen something else under the sun:

The race is not to the swift

or the battle to the strong,

nor does food come to the wise

or wealth to the brilliant

or favor to the learned;

but time and chance happen to them all.



I added the bold.

Ecceliastes also says this:

Ecclesiastes 3:1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:



It would appear there is a contradiction, but scripture never contradicts itself.

"Time and chance" is another way of saying that bad things happen to everyone for no apparent reason.
Yet God is in control. We just do not see the whole picture as He does.

 

[Crabtownboy]

Randomness only exists on OUR part. That has nothing at all to do with God allowing things to happen at random on his part.

The point of that very passage is that the arrow did NOT hit Ahab at random. God said EXACTLY how he would die and God killed him. Ahab's death was planned, purposed, prophesied and empowered by God. God brought it to pass by DESIGN.

That is a statement of faith that cannot be proven one way or the other. You gave two verses ... if my memory is correct ... both of which can be interpreted a number of ways as all scripture can be so interpreted. I found two verses and, as you have shown, they can be interpreted in all honesty in several ways. That is just one of the many reasons our journey to understanding continues throughout all our life and if we do not change in our understanding as we age then something is terribly wrong within our own quest.

This is the exact OPPOSITE of the definition of the word "random".

That sounds like double-speak.

I am still waiting on an explanation of how randomness impacts negatively on God's character?

also ...

Does God have to act or have acted according to your understanding?

I would never and I mean never make such an assertion that God had to do it the way I understand. That would be skating on extremely thin ice seeing as how my understanding has changed over the years.

I hope you understand all this is very gently said.




It was ONLY random on the part of the man drawing the bow. It was not at ALL random on the part of God.[/QUOTE]

 

[Luke2427]

A confessional document that uses the word in the same manner that you have used it does not qualify as a definition. And regarding the statement:

"“God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass:”

You have only replaced the word "decree" with the word "ordain" which is the OTHER word I requested that you define back when we first started this quest for definitions. :BangHead:

Pick a theological dictionary and copy and paste the definition of decree and ordain that you are comfortable with and we can move on Luke, its not that difficult.

I do not mind doing that. I will do it. But I think it is unfortunate that you do not recognize the greatest description and fullest definition the world has ever known written by the most brilliant minds in history on this matter.

As I said before, the Westminster Confession and the 1689 Baptist Confession EXIST to define our position on these theological ideas.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I do not mind doing that. I will do it. But I think it is unfortunate that you do not recognize the greatest description and fullest definition the world has ever known written by the most brilliant minds in history on this matter.

As I said before, the Westminster Confession and the 1689 Baptist Confession EXIST to define our position on these theological ideas.

I must have missed something. I thought the Bible exists to give us guidance and to define our positions.

I am a very traditional Baptist and put very little faith in confessions. Sorry.

 

[Skandelon]

I do not mind doing that. I will do it. But I think it is unfortunate that you do not recognize the greatest description and fullest definition the world has ever known written by the most brilliant minds in history on this matter.

As I said before, the Westminster Confession and the 1689 Baptist Confession EXIST to define our position on these theological ideas.

Define your position "yes," the individual words being employed "no." I don't have the confessional authors here to debate, I have you. You can just defer to them as if they are inerrant and divinely inspired because they use lofty pretty language, or you can engage in the discussion and defend your views.

Let's start by defining "decree" and "ordain."