The limits of free will...

It is so tiresome for you to say the same old worn-out lines in every post Robert. You speak rubbish. I was referencing Romans 9 in case you didn't know -- not The Institutes.

Why don't you quote me from my post #58 and refute,if you can,what I posted line-for-line?

 

Not limiting, but finally FREE, as we will always be obeying and doing the Will of God, and don't we all agree His Will is the best way to go?
We will have All sin nature removed, no more presense of it, so will forever serve/obey/love the Lord?

If that is "limited" isn't that for our best?

 

"Every single person deserves eternal condemnation." The Lord, however,has determined to have mercy on some and harden others. That's perfectly biblical and hence certainly not against the nature of God. He doesn't have mercy upon each and every person --past,present and future.

I was referencing Romans 9 in case you didn't know -- not The Institutes.
Why don't you quote me from my post #58 and refute,if you can,what I posted line-for-line?"

Hi Rippon, lets do as you requested of Mr. Snow.

(1) "Every single person deserves eternal condemnation."
True for we all have fallen short and our iniquity has caused a separation from God, unless we obtain mercy through faith in the truth. The concept of mercy includes not getting what we deserve. So we agree, except on how we obtain mercy.

(2) "The Lord, however,has determined to have mercy on some and harden others." This line looks to me like you have filtered Romans 9:18. It says God hardens whom He desires and has mercy on whom He desires. So if your statement was -ah - unfiltered it would read, The Lord, however, determines to have mercy on some and harden others." Your statement certainly accurately relates what God has done in the past, but leaves out that according to scripture it was on going when Paul wrote Romans 9.18 because all the verbs are in the present tense.

(3) "That's perfectly biblical and hence certainly not against the nature of God." Close but no brass right, because it left out that God was having mercy and inserted God has determined to have mercy. No biggy I often miss them mark a tad when referencing from memory.

(4) "He doesn't have mercy upon each and every person --past,present and future." There is absolutely nothing to nit pick here, you hit the nail on the head.
But that does not mean you did not filter the underlying scripture through Calvinism, but rather it could mean Calvinism is not wrong on this point.

So what was so wrong with what you said? By putting God's determination in the past, which I believe meant, but was left unstated, before the foundation of the world, you turned a verse toward Calvinism, when in fact it points, however faintly, away from the Calvinism. Anyway, that is my take.

 

JesusFan, another outstanding point. Being limited or not allowed to exercise our will in one area, like under the influence of corrupt flesh, can be seen as being set free rather than limited. That is why when I refer to verses that address our ultimate sanctification in glorified bodies that are not corrupt, I usually include the line, free at last, free at last.

 

New International Version (©1984)
"I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do."

Sounds as though St. Paul had problems with sinful behavior to me.

WM

 

Glfredrick, funny you did not address your ire toward Mr. Rippon. I only responded to his post.

As for your question concerning the limits of free will, why don't you stop trying to badger and harass by asking a question that has been answered over and over.

Here is how I answered your question:

"What are the limits of Libertarian Free Will?
One of the questions concerning libertarian free will (if it should exist as suggested) is what are its limits, or are there limits to free will?"

I would toss limited free will (meaning the ability to make choices that change the outcome of our lives) into the spectrum that starts at one end with exhaustive determinism- free will does not exist - then to Compatibilism and then to limited free will and at the other end of the spectrum of beliefs, libertarianism.

The difference between libertarian free will and limited free will, is the range of choices assumed to be allowed by God. In the limited free will view, only when God allows a person to exercise choice in that area, are they able to make autonomous choices.

This view is consistent with "we make plans, but God directs our steps" verse in Psalms. Take the case of the unbelieving Jews hardened by God in Romans 11. Before they were hardened they could have chosen Christ and obtained mercy because that choice was allowed by God. But, when He hardened them, their free will became even more limited, now to the point where they could not choose to trust in Christ. So if scripture says something is foreordained, predestined, whatever it is has been applied to us, then we no longer have the ability to choose otherwise. So, according to my eternal security view, when God puts us spiritually in Christ, our free will to walk away from our faith and devotion to Christ is taken away. We can sure still backslide and quench the Spirit, but I believe in the heart of hearts of every born again believer, they love Jesus till the day they die because God keeps them by protecting their faith. 1 Peter 1:3-5.

In summary the limits imposed by God on our capacity to make autonomous choices are according to His purpose. He created us to bring Him glory, and when we repent we bring Him glory, so God allows us or grants us the liberty to choose to trust in Christ because that fulfills His purpose of creation.

The problem with Compatibilism is God says He sets life and death before us and desires that we choose life (Deuteronomy 30:15-20.) If our past dictated our choice, we would have either life or death before us because the alternative would not be available. Thus the view turns the meaning of choice into non-choice. If a person cannot pick one or the other, but must pick one and cannot pick the other, it is a non-choice. Thus the view is completely unbiblical.

If we were computers made of meat, to borrow a phrase, why would it bring glory to God for us to "repent" when that choice to forsake ourselves and trust in God, was the result of the compulsion of the past. That would be akin to thinking if a pull string doll said, "I love you" that would ascribe some honor or glory to whoever pulled the string.

Did God give us the Law which He knew none of us could follow perfectly to lead us to Christ? Yes. Did God give us Christ to set before us the choice of life or death and beg us to choose life? Yes, as ambassadors of Christ we are to beg the lost to be reconciled to God. Does compatibilism rewrite this truth as God set before some life, because they had no other choice, and death before the others because they had no other choice, being unable to alter the outcome that had been exhaustively determined. Yes.

The limits of our autonomous choices are set by God, and God does not leave those limits static for our lives. He can take away and He can add. Take away by hardening, and those limits can also be reduced by our practice of sin, so that what we had is taken away. To him who has, more will be given can be applied to receiving the Holy Spirit, where we are then able to understand the spiritual things discerned with the aid of our indwelt Spirit, and thus grow and alter our entry into heaven, because those that grow and earn rewards, enter abundantly.

We are limited in that we cannot do anything or think anything that will save us. Romans 9:16. But we can believe and if God credits our faith in the truth as righteousness, He puts us in Christ where we are given more range; we can now do good works that earn rewards.

God rules and does as He pleases, and scripture tells us it pleased God to create people who could choose life or death, and that God sets both options before them.

So by the numbers (1) Are there limits to LFW? Answer Yes (2) Does LFW exist? Answer No but limited free will does. (3) What are the limits to free will? Answer: The limits are the restrictions imposed by God to fulfill His purpose, as illustrated in the following: Adam was free to sin or not sin but once corrupted and separated from God nothing he could do or think could restore his former relationship with God. As a consequence of Adams sin, the many (everyone but Christ" were made sinners, predisposed to sin by our corrupted fleshly natures. However, in this limited condition, we can still set our minds on some spiritual things, the milk of the gospel, because men of the flesh are able to receive it. 1 Corinthians 3:1-3. But this limited spiritual ability can be reduced further by (a) the practice of sinning, resulting in being like the first soil of Matthew 13, and/or (b) God hardening our heart - taking away are ability to trust in Christ - as described in Romans 11. On the other hand God can expand the range of our free will by sealing us in Christ with the Holy Spirit as a guide to understanding the spiritual things only understood with the aid the Spirit. Finally, when we are resurrected in glorified bodies, we are set free from the limits imposed through our corrupt flesh, free at last, free at last.

 

I would also be interested in an academic rundown of free will belief (but without derogatory commentary pointed at Calvinistic Believers Ive been reading regularly). Since you once were a Calvinist, you should be able to posture it in some way where perhaps you can compare & contrast it....your call.

 

All creation falls under the absolute sovereignty of God. After the fall, man's freedom of choice is limited by this absolute sovereignty, in a term in theology was term the permissive will of God:"Thus far and no further." Now apply man's free will under these terms. "free" becomes a relative term, and not an absolute. Only God is absolute.

Cheers,

Jim