True calvinism

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I never said election wasn't scripture. I've read all of Arthur Pink, and a few 100 others. Don't be condescending, please! I was a 5-Point Calvinist for 25 years, until I got tired of their twisted, mental gymnastics in order to make scripture fit into their dogma.

Did Christ die for all without exception or just for some? That is the question under discussion, and you totally ignored all my points. I'm sorry, but that's what I usually get.

I spent an hour putting out my reasoning, and the typical Calvinist comes back with "so you don't understand election."

You do know that there are OTHER parts of scripture, and scripture interprets scripture, not some systematic dogma that has to be forced into the scripture?

I was not trying to be condescending but I'm not about to have a conversation with a person who calls my beliefs Calvinistic Dogma. Right there, you negate my wanting to discuss this with you. If you rephrased your comments in a way that didn't present you as having an ax to grind, I might reconsider.

Ciao

 

[JML CASSIAN]

I was not trying to be condescending but I'm not about to have a conversation with a person who calls my beliefs Calvinistic Dogma. Right there, you negate my wanting to discuss this with you. If you rephrased your comments in a way that didn't present you as having an ax to grind, I might reconsider.

Ciao

Suit yourself! I have no need to rephrase my comments and that wouldn't do any good anyhow. You ignored all my points. I stick by my original comments.

 

[savedbymercy]

Saved subjectively if received personally.

It is received personally by the application of it by the Holy Spirit. He works in conjunction with Christ, and all for whom Christ died, in time He applies Salvation in them..Thats one of the ways He [The Holy Spirit] Glorifies Christ..

The Application of the Holy Spirit is When He sets apart the One Christ died for by NewBirth in order of that one believing the Truth 2 Thess 2:

13But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

14Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Suit yourself! I have no need to rephrase my comments and that wouldn't do any good anyhow. You ignored all my points. I stick by my original comments.

Let me get this right..... your profile lists you as a Lutheran. So you come into a Baptist Forum (understanding that this particular sector is Other Denom) to discuss your belief that Election is dogma. Then you freely admit that your a .... how'd you put it....oh yes a "Recovering Calvinist" .

In other words your just itchin for an argument. Shameful behavior I'm thinkin.

But this whole thing is truly laughable & I'm done with it. Have a good weekend!:smilewinkgrin:

 

[savedbymercy]

jml:

When used in passages referring to salvation, "world" almost always means every single individual without exception

No it does not. It normally means in that context, the gentiles..One of the biggest problems in Christ day and the apostles is that salvation was only for the jews, so there was always a strong emphasis on the world..to stress the scope of God's redeeming love being beyond the ethnic jewish state..hence Jn 3:

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

And as stated the word world denotes any gathering of particulars to form a whole.

The word is kosmos :

) an apt and harmonious arrangement or constitution, order, government

2) ornament, decoration, adornment, i.e. the arrangement of the stars, 'the heavenly hosts', as the ornament of the heavens. 1 Pet. 3:3

3) the world, the universe

4) the circle of the earth, the earth

5) the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human family

6) the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God, and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ

7) world affairs, the aggregate of things earthly

a) the whole circle of earthly goods, endowments riches, advantages, pleasures, etc, which although hollow and frail and fleeting, stir desire, seduce from God and are obstacles to the cause of Christ

8) any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort

a) the Gentiles as contrasted to the Jews (Rom. 11:12 etc)

Now that word aggregate is defined by our english dictionary as:

a noun:

A total considered with reference to its constituent parts;

a verb:

To gather into a mass, sum, or whole.

And so, the Gathering in of God's Sheep from amongst the world constitutes a world..

Jesus speaking of His Sheep in the gentile world, says this Jn 10:


16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring or gather, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

This One fold is actually a World.. And thats the World He layed down His Life for, the World of His Sheep Jn 10:

15As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

So technically, Sheep and World are the same in the purpose of salvation..

 

[savedbymercy]

Yes indeed! He came to save the lost. We all, without exception, were lost.

Yes but all without exception He did not come to save. Those He came to save, He saves, Just like the scripture showed with zach, seems you missed the whole blessed point..

 

[savedbymercy]

ewf:

However let me say this.....Election is not dogma. Its Scriptural

Yes you are right, but thats how some people combat the Truth, they label it calvinism to make it appear that its a man's doctrine instead of scripture. I believe such will be Judged harshly at God's tribunal.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

Let me get this right..... your profile lists you as a Lutheran. So you come into a Baptist Forum (understanding that this particular sector is Other Denom) to discuss your belief that Election is dogma. Then you freely admit that your a .... how'd you put it....oh yes a "Recovering Calvinist" .

In other words your just itchin for an argument. Shameful behavior I'm thinkin.

But this whole thing is truly laughable & I'm done with it. Have a good weekend!:smilewinkgrin:

Partially correct. I came to the "other" denominations section. Do you have a problem with that?

Then, I just recently (a month ago) had finally had it with the Calvinist church I had been a member of. April 1st I went back to a independent, conservative Lutheran church. I was baptized and confirmed in a Lutheran church. Their theology is much closer to what I believe scripture to be teaching, even though I don't totally agree with everything. I even disagree with myself on occasion.

Again, does that meet your approval? I did not come to a forum to cause trouble and since that is what you seem to think, I am going to bit the forum good-bye. I don't need this kind of nonsense.

I'm done posting.

BTW, my friend, you are the one who has been rude and laughable. But, I'm done, so relax.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

Partially correct. I came to the "other" denominations section. Do you have a problem with that?

Then, I just recently (a month ago) had finally had it with the Calvinist church I had been a member of. April 1st I went back to a independent, conservative Lutheran church. I was baptized and confirmed in a Lutheran church. Their theology is much closer to what I believe scripture to be teaching, even though I don't totally agree with everything. I even disagree with myself on occasion.

Again, does that meet your approval?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here is true 'Calvinism' ... here is OSAS ... here is GRACE and the love of God through Jesus Christ :


TULIP

'TULIP' for:
'T' for Total Depravity of man ...
'U' for Unconditional Election ...
'L' for Limited Atonement ...
'I' for Irresistible Grace ...
'P' for Perseverance of the saints ...

In my opinion and experience TULIP spells Salvation. It is a help to understand the truth and reality of God's grace in one's personal life experience. Instead of TULIP, for example, a Roman Catholic will rub a wooden cross bracelet; and an Arminian would rub his knuckles. TULIP to me, has become a great consolation; in it I discovered how the grace of God operates, beginning with unregenerate man and ending with regenerate man,
T: unregenerate man --- Total depravity
U: God --- Unconditional election
L: Christ --- Limited atonement
I: Holy Spirit --- Irresistible Grace
P: Regenerate man --- Perseverance of the saints.
I am a simple man and I love simple aids for, and in the faith. The beauty of TULIP is like the beauty of the lilies of the field which Jesus compared with Solomon and his wisdom "in all his glory" --- what the wise cracks of human sovereignty and free will in all its glory of the fleshly mind.
TULIP, Arminians and gownsmen usually set alight spontaneously. The more earthy its soil the more glorious TULIP blooms.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Yes Indeed, God is Sovereign!

GB, have you read the "Thirty-Nine Articles"?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I know this might be a contradiction in terms to some people, but I come from ancestors that were both Calvinistic & Methodist. Men like Martyn Lloyd-Jones would be the typical model of that particular class of Christian, as would George Whitefield & some would even claim Jonathon Edwards as being very close to one.

This particular blending created a very passionate kind of Christianity.

Listen to Dr. ML-J sermon on "True Calvinism":

true Calvinism not only does justice to the objective side of our faith and our whole position, it does equal justice to the subjective; and people who cannot see this subjective element in Calvinism seem to me never to have understood Calvinism. Calvinism of necessity leads to an emphasis upon the action and the activity of God the Holy Spirit. The whole emphasis is upon what God does to us: not what man does, but what God does to us; not our hold of Him but 'His strong grasp of us'. So Calvinism of necessity leads to experiences, and to great emphasis upon experience; and these men, and all these older Calvinists were constantly talking about 'visitations', how the Lord had appeared to them, how the Lord had spoken to them - the kind of thing that we have seen Toplady expressing in the hymn already quoted and in his Diaries. They also talked about 'withdrawings'. Why have those terms disappeared from amongst us modern Calvinists? When have you last spoken about a 'visitation' from the Spirit of God? When did Christ last make Himself 'real' to you? What do you know about 'withdrawings' of the Spirit, and the feeling that your Bridegroom has left you and that He has not visited you recently? This is of the essence of true Calvinism; and a Calvinism that knows nothing about visitations and withdrawings is a caricature of Calvinism, I object to its using the term with respect to itself.

"...But more, Calvinism leads to assurance, and assurance of necessity leads to joy. You cannot be assured quietly and unmoved by the fact that your sins are forgiven, and that you are a child of God, and that you are going to heaven: it is impossible. Assurance must lead to joy. Not only that; knowing this leads to prayer. God is my Father. I am adopted. I know Him. I have an entrance, and I want to go there. I want to speak to Him and I want to know Him. This is true Calvinism. And that, of course, leads to a love of His Word. You meet Him in the Word. The Word instructs you as to how to find Him; it helps you to understand the visitations and the withdrawings. You live on the Word. Nothing so drives a man to the Word of God as true Calvinism."

 

[JML CASSIAN]

Here is true 'Calvinism' ... here is OSAS ... here is GRACE and the love of God through Jesus Christ :


TULIP

'TULIP' for:
'T' for Total Depravity of man ...
'U' for Unconditional Election ...
'L' for Limited Atonement ...
'I' for Irresistible Grace ...
'P' for Perseverance of the saints ...

In my opinion and experience TULIP spells Salvation. It is a help to understand the truth and reality of God's grace in one's personal life experience. Instead of TULIP, for example, a Roman Catholic will rub a wooden cross bracelet; and an Arminian would rub his knuckles. TULIP to me, has become a great consolation; in it I discovered how the grace of God operates, beginning with unregenerate man and ending with regenerate man,
T: unregenerate man --- Total depravity
U: God --- Unconditional election
L: Christ --- Limited atonement
I: Holy Spirit --- Irresistible Grace
P: Regenerate man --- Perseverance of the saints.
I am a simple man and I love simple aids for, and in the faith. The beauty of TULIP is like the beauty of the lilies of the field which Jesus compared with Solomon and his wisdom "in all his glory" --- what the wise cracks of human sovereignty and free will in all its glory of the fleshly mind.
TULIP, Arminians and gownsmen usually set alight spontaneously. The more earthy its soil the more glorious TULIP blooms.

Of course, one problem with TULIP, especially the "L" is you have no way of knowing whether you are one of the "chosen." Therefore, you have no assurance of salvation because unless your name is in print in the bible so you can see it, you just don't know. Another reason is you don't know if you will persevere to the end. You may find out THEN, that you were really never regenerated in the first place.

No Calvinist or any of their creeds have been able to explain this. The TULIP system relies on subjective "feelings" for that assurance, which means there is no assurance at all.

On the other hand, Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He removed that barrier caused by Adam that left man dead in trespasses and sin. Once that was removed by the Cross and God reconciled to man (2 Cor 5:18-21) it just remains for man to apply what has already been done for them, to themselves, like, as I have stated before, the Jews applying the blood to the door post so the angel of death would pass by. If they did not apply that to themselves personally, Jew or not, they perished.

And of course you apply what was accomplished by the Cross to yourself personally, by faith. And how do you do that? Scripture tell us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the preaching of the Word. The gospel is the power of God for salvation. All we need to do is believe that our sins are forgiven and believe in the promises of Christ and that he is able to do what he says he will do. And of course faith is not a work, just an instrument that receives what has already been accomplished for you.

Since Jesus died for the ungodly, and he came to not judge the world, but save it, you can be assured that he died for YOU, personally.

Further, as the Prophet Isaiah states in 53:6:

All we like sheep have gone astray;
we have turned—every one—to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

​

Yes indeed, we have ALL, without exception gone astray. That's the bad news. But the good news? The Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

I know this might be a contradiction in terms to some people, but I come from ancestors that were both Calvinistic & Methodist. Men like Martyn Lloyd-Jones would be the typical model of that particular class of Christian, as would George Whitefield & some would even claim Jonathon Edwards as being very close to one.

This particular blending created a very passionate kind of Christianity.

Listen to Dr. ML-J sermon on "True Calvinism":

true Calvinism not only does justice to the objective side of our faith and our whole position, it does equal justice to the subjective; and people who cannot see this subjective element in Calvinism seem to me never to have understood Calvinism. Calvinism of necessity leads to an emphasis upon the action and the activity of God the Holy Spirit. The whole emphasis is upon what God does to us: not what man does, but what God does to us; not our hold of Him but 'His strong grasp of us'. So Calvinism of necessity leads to experiences, and to great emphasis upon experience; and these men, and all these older Calvinists were constantly talking about 'visitations', how the Lord had appeared to them, how the Lord had spoken to them - the kind of thing that we have seen Toplady expressing in the hymn already quoted and in his Diaries. They also talked about 'withdrawings'. Why have those terms disappeared from amongst us modern Calvinists? When have you last spoken about a 'visitation' from the Spirit of God? When did Christ last make Himself 'real' to you? What do you know about 'withdrawings' of the Spirit, and the feeling that your Bridegroom has left you and that He has not visited you recently? This is of the essence of true Calvinism; and a Calvinism that knows nothing about visitations and withdrawings is a caricature of Calvinism, I object to its using the term with respect to itself.

"...But more, Calvinism leads to assurance, and assurance of necessity leads to joy. You cannot be assured quietly and unmoved by the fact that your sins are forgiven, and that you are a child of God, and that you are going to heaven: it is impossible. Assurance must lead to joy. Not only that; knowing this leads to prayer. God is my Father. I am adopted. I know Him. I have an entrance, and I want to go there. I want to speak to Him and I want to know Him. This is true Calvinism. And that, of course, leads to a love of His Word. You meet Him in the Word. The Word instructs you as to how to find Him; it helps you to understand the visitations and the withdrawings. You live on the Word. Nothing so drives a man to the Word of God as true Calvinism."

Yes indeed! Subjective "feelings" to base your assurance of salvation on. No thanks, that is, well, too subjective.

Lloyd-Jones asks: "When have you last spoken about a 'visitation' from the Spirit of God? When did Christ last make Himself 'real' to you? What do you know about 'withdrawings' of the Spirit, and the feeling that your Bridegroom has left you and that He has not visited you recently?"

To be honest, I never cared for the theology of Dr Lloyd-Jones, but that's another story.

In that quote is NOTHING but "feelings," and "experiences," nothing but sand to build your castle on. The focus should not be on "feelings," because those change day by day. The focus, especially when being attack by the forces of evil, is to focus on Christ and Christ alone.

I had stated I wasn't going to post anymore because at the time I just felt it was a waste of time. That's what happens when a person relies on their "feelings." Today is a new day, and the "feelings" are different.

And I'm not "just looking for an argument." After recently coming out of Calvinism, I know how John Wesley felt when he, on May 24th, 1738 broke free from what he had learned in the Church of England, and felt, for the first time, that he could go out and really preach the truth of Justification by Faith.

I feel liberated from having to defend a system of theology that does great injustice to the scriptures, by trying to make those scriptures fit into their theology. You disagree with that and I understand that. But I've been there, done that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

"feelings" for that assurance, which means there isOf course, one problem with TULIP, especially the "L" is you have no way of knowing whether you are one of the "chosen." Therefore, you have no assurance of salvation because unless your name is in print in the bible so you can see it, you just don't know. Another reason is you don't know if you will persevere to the end. You may find out THEN, that you were really never regenerated in the first place.

No Calvinist or any of their creeds have been able to explain this. The TULIP system relies on subjective no assurance at all.

On the other hand, Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. He removed that barrier caused by Adam that left man dead in trespasses and sin. Once that was removed by the Cross and God reconciled to man (2 Cor 5:18-21) it just remains for man to apply what has already been done for them, to themselves, like, as I have stated before, the Jews applying the blood to the door post so the angel of death would pass by. If they did not apply that to themselves personally, Jew or not, they perished.

And of course you apply what was accomplished by the Cross to yourself personally, by faith. And how do you do that? Scripture tell us. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the preaching of the Word. The gospel is the power of God for salvation. All we need to do is believe that our sins are forgiven and believe in the promises of Christ and that he is able to do what he says he will do. And of course faith is not a work, just an instrument that receives what has already been accomplished for you.

Since Jesus died for the ungodly, and he came to not judge the world, but save it, you can be assured that he died for YOU, personally.

Further, as the Prophet Isaiah states in 53:6:

​

Yes indeed, we have ALL, without exception gone astray. That's the bad news. But the good news? The Lord laid on him the iniquity of us all.

So your claim is there is no assurance for who goes to heaven & who goes to hell so you feel that everyone should go to heaven is that it?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I feel liberated from having to defend a system of theology that does great injustice to the scriptures, by trying to make those scriptures fit into their theology. You disagree with that and I understand that. But I've been there, done that.

Your problem is that you have an obvious ax to grind. I will pray for you that this may be lifted from your heart.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Your problem is that you have an obvious ax to grind. I will pray for you that this may be lifted from your heart.

BTW, I would like to ask you to read the last paragraph of the ML-J quote again & just contemplate it for a while.

Blessings

 

[JML CASSIAN]

So your claim is there is no assurance for who goes to heaven & who goes to hell so you feel that everyone should go to heaven is that it?

No, that's not it! Where do you come up with this stuff? What I said, and you ignored, is there is no assurance under the Calvinist system, not under the biblical system.

I would love for everyone to go to heaven, wouldn't you? It's not going to happen of course, but Jesus loved the world so he gave.....John 3:16. He came to save sinners, not the righteous, he died for the ungodly, and we love him because he first loved us.

God is good, and there is assurance of salvation for all who believe/trust/receive what has been freely offered to them.

 

[JML CASSIAN]

Your problem is that you have an obvious ax to grind. I will pray for you that this may be lifted from your heart.

I don't have any problem, and I have no ax to grind and no dog in the fight. I just feel called to relate the good news of the gospel, which is Christ died on the Cross, he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. Those that receive what has been done for them have forgiveness of sins, and where there is forgiveness there is justification and where there is justification there is life. Amen, and praise the Lord.

Only God can look into the heart. You can't, thank you very much.

 

[savedbymercy]

jml:

he is the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world

Yes, but not every individual without exception, the world here has no sin to be punished for, Christ took away the punishment this particular world deserved, now can we say that about this world here 1 Cor 11:

32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

Now this cannot be the very same world in Jn 1:29