Abc 20/20

[matt wade]

That's my experience with IFBS..
Before I came to Baptist board...

After I came here I met some that I know does not fit that mold.. Roger and John are a couple..

But most IFBS that come here are KJVO... that right there is enough to tell me they are caught up in false doctrine...

Yet you are a member of a Baptist organization that thinks women pastors are OK, right? Talk about false doctrine.

What you and the others don't seem to understand is that not all IFB are what you describe. It's fine is you wish to single out individual churches and call them out on these things, but painting all IFB with the same broad brush is simply spreading lies.

 

[michael-acts17:11]

tinytim,

you just described every IFB church I have ever seen in the South. Different area, same ideology.

 

[abcgrad94]

So, based on your experience, all fathers are abusive. Please let me know when you are going to start ranting against all fathers and insist that they are all abusive.

Matt, that was completely uncalled for. Your lack of Christian compassion and understanding is glaringly obvious.

 

[NaasPreacher (C4K)]

No, not every single IFB pastor is a jerk. Some are good men who are just deceived and blinded by legalistic "standards."

So IFB pastors are either jerks or deceived?

Our church deals with sin. There is no way on this earth that we would have handled this situation the way it was the handled. The victim of child abuse would be loved and cared for and her needs met. We would have welcomed her and celebrated the birth of her child and supported her choice in what to do with the child (short of abortion, of course).

The abuser would have been church disciplined. The Gardai (police) would have been notified. While we would have accepted his acknowledgement and repentance, he still would have had to suffer the consequences of his criminal act.

When an IFB church is taught properly the people in the church police it. We do not call ourselves IFB here, we are just a Baptist church. Our people are constantly encouraged to keep an eye on me and hold me accountable, and they do that.

I have lost the support of churches who behave as describe here as the rule. My supporting churches now (as far as I know) don't fit this seemingly iron-clad mould. I have no problems exposing sin and biblically dealing with sinners. The problem is, what appears to be acceptable here, of painting all IFB churches as the same.

Is it not possible to say something like 'Churches like the one in the OP' instead of saying 'IFB churches' when discussing the topic?

My heart breaks for ABCgrad and any others who have suffered at the hands of over-bearing unbiblical leaders and the churches they pastor. There is no excuse for the way they have been treated.

My issue here is that a general brushing practiced by some is coming back now to haunt them. Because of a handful of monsters who lived and worked in the country the words 'paedophile' and 'priest' are almost synonymous in many many people's minds.

Though wrong in their doctrine and deceived by their church, the vast majority of priests in this country are decent, caring men who serve their parishes with care and compassion.

There is no IFB 'denomination.' There are fellowships of IFB pastors or even churches. Organisations do not guarantee no abuse - look back at the Catholic Church.

The people in the church should be taught to hold their pastor accountable. Anyone who does not feel the freedom to do that needs to changes churches.

IFB churches don't abuse any more than guns kill people. It the is person who uses them who is guilty of the crime.

I assure, there is another option for an IFB pastor than 'jerk' or 'deceived.'

 

[Don]

The reason I posted about this in the first place is because I was initially completely unaware of the 20/20 "news" segment. I run a small web site portal for independent fundamental baptists. After the 20/20 segment aired, I started receiving e-mails:

We now know about your teachings and dogma. Thanks to 20/20 for opening our eyes and exposing your " church" for what it is.

Your church and many of the pastors are _____ lunatics. Teaching how to spank kids. How about I teach people how to beat your pastors with baseball bats. You would not like it would you? Teenager girls are blamed for rape and placed in front of churches to be humiliated. I can humiliate your pastors given the chance. You people ARE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!!! YOu are nothing but a whack job cult. You ar not christians by any means. Obviously I am not being Chrustian right now because I am so _____ mad and want to beat someones ___ ....those pastors on 20/20

(while he didn't use the "f bomb," he used a word that started with "f" that I think some folks find offensive, so I blanked it out)

I came out of a cult type church which had many false doctrines. They also have had many abuse and child molestation problems hidden. The nature of that church structure allowed for the hiding of these things.

My question is related to the IFB church which has recently been on a 20/20 piece dealing with abuse and CSA.

How is the IFB association going to respond to this evil.

And the e-mails keep coming. I'm trying to answer each one with the right spirit, viewing it as an opportunity to educate and possibly even share the gospel. I'm open to suggestions.

 

[John of Japan]

So IFB pastors are either jerks or deceived?

Our church deals with sin. There is no way on this earth that we would have handled this situation the way it was the handled. The victim of child abuse would be loved and cared for and her needs met. We would have welcomed her and celebrated the birth of her child and supported her choice in what to do with the child (short of abortion, of course).

The abuser would have been church disciplined. The Gardai (police) would have been notified. While we would have accepted his acknowledgement and repentance, he still would have had to suffer the consequences of his criminal act.

When an IFB church is taught properly the people in the church police it. We do not call ourselves IFB here, we are just a Baptist church. Our people are constantly encouraged to keep an eye on me and hold me accountable, and they do that.

I have lost the support of churches who behave as describe here as the rule. My supporting churches now (as far as I know) don't fit this seemingly iron-clad mould. I have no problems exposing sin and biblically dealing with sinners. The problem is, what appears to be acceptable here, of painting all IFB churches as the same.

Is it not possible to say something like 'Churches like the one in the OP' instead of saying 'IFB churches' when discussing the topic?

My heart breaks for ABCgrad and any others who have suffered at the hands of over-bearing unbiblical leaders and the churches they pastor. There is no excuse for the way they have been treated.

My issue here is that a general brushing practiced by some is coming back now to haunt them. Because of a handful of monsters who lived and worked in the country the words 'paedophile' and 'priest' are almost synonymous in many many people's minds.

Though wrong in their doctrine and deceived by their church, the vast majority of priests in this country are decent, caring men who serve their parishes with care and compassion.

There is no IFB 'denomination.' There are fellowships of IFB pastors or even churches. Organisations do not guarantee no abuse - look back at the Catholic Church.

The people in the church should be taught to hold their pastor accountable. Anyone who does not feel the freedom to do that needs to changes churches.

IFB churches don't abuse any more than guns kill people. It the is person who uses them who is guilty of the crime.

I assure, there is another option for an IFB pastor than 'jerk' or 'deceived.'

Very well said, brother.

By the way, I've been told that Chuck Phelps is saying that he did go to the police. In these cases, so many people (especially those who do not like us IFBs in the first place, or have left the movement for whatever reason) are quick to believe and say the absolute worst about IFBs. I remember an uncle and aunt who left fundamentalism who described a former dear friend in the crudest of terms.

I did not listen to the whole 20-20 piece because, while my sympathies are with the young lady, I don't see any need to be informed about Christianity in any way, shape or form by the secular media. So correct me if I'm wrong, but it appears that they did not interview Phelps to get his side. Am I right?

 

[matt wade]

Matt, that was completely uncalled for. Your lack of Christian compassion and understanding is glaringly obvious.

It's completely uncalled for that you paint every IFP church and pastor as legalistic and allowing abuse to happen within the church. I was simply illustrating how your same logic can be applied to fathers as well. Of course I'm sorry for the things that have happened to you, but that doesn't give you an excuse to slander all IFB churches.

 

[John of Japan]

Here is Chuck Phelps side of the story: http://www.drchuckphelps.com/index.html

So he was interviewed by 20/20--in an ambush designed to put him in the worst light possible. Typcial secular media action. Furthermore, according to Phelps, Tina "wrote her own statement and asked to share it." This was not a public "shaming" and church discipline. Phelps says he would do it differently today. His notes say he informed the police at 6:50 on 10/8/97. However, Tina herself did not want to report the abuse to the police. There was no cover-up, the police simply failed to follow up. And so on.

Folks, this is why I believe in never trusting the secular media on Christian matters. They always get it wrong. They have a presupposition that Bible believing Christianity is foolishness. "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned" (1Co 2:14).

I remember an aunt who was the author of a Christian best seller who made the mistake of giving an interview to a secular reporter. The reporter edited and twisted her words so much that she decided to never again give an interview.

 

[Don]

One thing that bothers me: Phelps says he contacted the police, and even mentions names...but there's no indication 20/20 attempted to obtain the police report, or interview the policemen named. Seems like that could easily corroborate-or disprove-Phelps' claims pretty quickly.

 

[Aaron]

"Ho hum"?

Which part is so boring to you?

The old secular, anti-Christian slants, and the usual natives getting restless as if this latest attack will prevail at all against the Gospel.

 

[Aaron]

Thanks for the links, J of J, and I'll check back to see if Phelps' detractors here will retract their rash and ill-advised statements. When will you guys ever learn you don't get the whole story from the media?

 

[Don]

The old secular, anti-Christian slants, and the usual natives getting restless as if this latest attack will prevail at all against the Gospel.

I refer you back to my post where I copied parts of e-mails that I'm receiving. How would you respond to them?

 

[abcgrad94]

My issue here is that a general brushing practiced by some is coming back now to haunt them. Because of a handful of monsters who lived and worked in the country the words 'paedophile' and 'priest' are almost synonymous in many many people's minds.
I assure, there is another option for an IFB pastor than 'jerk' or 'deceived.'

Thank you, Roger. I sincerely hope that one day I will be able to distinguish the difference. I pray that one day I WILL truly see that not all are cut from the same cloth. But for now, please forgive me for my inability. I do not mean it as an insult to you or Don or others personally, but it's my perspective right now. Once trust is broken, it is very difficult to win back.

Don, as for answering the nasty emails you've received, please understand that many of them will come from the walking wounded who need an outlet for their pain and anger. I hope you will be able to respond in a loving manner that tells them you CARE more about them than about defending your beliefs. If true love for God and others is there, God will take care of your site's reputation. People need to see love result from this, not defensive anger towards those who are hurt and/or deceived. If you could offer words of healing to them, words of kindness and assurance that they are loved, it will go a long way to diffuse the situation.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Let's give 20/20 their due (since it appears I'm one of the few who have read/listened to the entire series):

They did attempt to get the original police report but the police department refused saying that it (if it exists) would be part of an ongoing investigation.

Second point: They tried to contact Phelps and he refused the interview request(s) which led the reporter to do the "ambush". ABC was open and upfront about the fact that Phelps was approached directly after initially refusing to be interviewed. Yes, its possible that the reporter overstepped her bounds in "ambushing" the man, but then again, he could have repeated: NO COMMENT!

The truth lies in between the sources depending on your perspective. As JoJ says, nonChristians are going be against the preacher because he represents Christ as is their predisposition. The Christians are going to sit back and say: there is the example of what to avoid in our churches and hopefully take it in as an example.

Those who were wrong (including the initial officer who took the report if indeed one was made, the girl's mother, (oh and where is her bio father?), the pastor, the man, the stepfather who was apparently already molesting the girl,(did ya'll not read that?), the host family who took her in but apparently didn't question why she was there other than she was 15 and pregnant, the pastor(s) of the church of the host family. Oh yeah, they alllllll bear a share of the blame!) need to stand up and take responsibility for what they did and state clearly what they do or plan to do in the future to keep such a thing from happening again.

Let's not blame the media too much for doing what they do. There were an awful lot of people who could have asked a few simple questions and put a stop to this girl's suffering and failed to do so.

 

[Scarlett O.]

Thank you, Roger. I sincerely hope that one day I will be able to distinguish the difference. I pray that one day I WILL truly see that not all are cut from the same cloth. But for now, please forgive me for my inability. I do not mean it as an insult to you or Don or others personally, but it's my perspective right now. Once trust is broken, it is very difficult to win back.

Sister, I thank you for testimony and I believe you. I've talked to and counseled too many other people, both men and women, who could be your clone.

And you are right - it isn't about broad-brushing. It's about the trust factor. I understand.

Don, as for answering the nasty emails you've received, please understand that many of them will come from the walking wounded who need an outlet for their pain and anger. I hope you will be able to respond in a loving manner that tells them you CARE more about them than about defending your beliefs. If true love for God and others is there, God will take care of your site's reputation. People need to see love result from this, not defensive anger towards those who are hurt and/or deceived. If you could offer words of healing to them, words of kindness and assurance that they are loved, it will go a long way to diffuse the situation.

The walking wounded? I've seen them, cried with them, and prayed for them. It's a serious issue that NNE seems to give a flip about addressing. I've never understood why. It boggles my mind. It really does.

It's apparent to me that there are some people here who have no clue as to what is going on in some (notice I said "some") of these churches.

I've had quite a few - quite a few - people in both in person and via private messaging on the internet that have confided in me and sought my thinking and my prayers. Why they sought me out, I can't explain. They've told me things in private that made my jaw drop - both men and women. My only counsel to them was to find another church - not necessarily another denomination. Don't turn your back on God. Don't allow your nightmare to color your walk with Christ. Get in the Word and read it for yourself and allow it to heal you. That's all I knew to tell them. Mostly, I just listened.

I believe you.

 

[Don]

Don, as for answering the nasty emails you've received, please understand that many of them will come from the walking wounded who need an outlet for their pain and anger. I hope you will be able to respond in a loving manner that tells them you CARE more about them than about defending your beliefs. If true love for God and others is there, God will take care of your site's reputation. People need to see love result from this, not defensive anger towards those who are hurt and/or deceived. If you could offer words of healing to them, words of kindness and assurance that they are loved, it will go a long way to diffuse the situation.

Ma'am - re-read the e-mails I posted. So far, the only one I've received like you describe is the last one I copied here; the rest are like the first 2.

You make a good point, and that's my goal for dealing with ones like that; my question to you is, what are your suggestions on how to deal with the ones like the first two?

 

[Don]

Let's give 20/20 their due (since it appears I'm one of the few who have read/listened to the entire series):

They did attempt to get the original police report but the police department refused saying that it (if it exists) would be part of an ongoing investigation.

Second point: They tried to contact Phelps and he refused the interview request(s) which led the reporter to do the "ambush". ABC was open and upfront about the fact that Phelps was approached directly after initially refusing to be interviewed. Yes, its possible that the reporter overstepped her bounds in "ambushing" the man, but then again, he could have repeated: NO COMMENT!

The truth lies in between the sources depending on your perspective. As JoJ says, nonChristians are going be against the preacher because he represents Christ as is their predisposition. The Christians are going to sit back and say: there is the example of what to avoid in our churches and hopefully take it in as an example.

Those who were wrong (including the initial officer who took the report if indeed one was made, the girl's mother, (oh and where is her bio father?), the pastor, the man, the stepfather who was apparently already molesting the girl,(did ya'll not read that?), the host family who took her in but apparently didn't question why she was there other than she was 15 and pregnant, the pastor(s) of the church of the host family. Oh yeah, they alllllll bear a share of the blame!) need to stand up and take responsibility for what they did and state clearly what they do or plan to do in the future to keep such a thing from happening again.

Let's not blame the media too much for doing what they do.

For those that were paying attention to the 20/20 segment: The stepfather went to jail and did several years. As the 20/20 segment points out, he was released, and was attending the same church. Then 20/20 went on the attack against the current pastor about how he's dealing with convicted sex offenders in his church.

I give 20/20 no due. They could have easily opened a phone book and called 50, 100, 1,000 IFB churches and gotten comments about the situation. They could have easily done an internet search and found websites like the one I run, and contacted people for comments. I started receiving comments about the show within 24 hours of it airing, from people who don't have the financial backing that 20/20 does. They could have easily traveled to at least 3 different IFB churches and done interviews and taken footage of how other IFB churches conduct their business. They did none of that. They obviously were more after the scandal.

There were an awful lot of people who could have asked a few simple questions and put a stop to this girl's suffering and failed to do so.

On that, I agree wholeheartedly.

 

[abcgrad94]

Ma'am - re-read the e-mails I posted. So far, the only one I've received like you describe is the last one I copied here; the rest are like the first 2.

You make a good point, and that's my goal for dealing with ones like that; my question to you is, what are your suggestions on how to deal with the ones like the first two?

Yes, I did read them before I posted, and my advice is the same. It doesn't matter if they use the F bomb, insulting language, etc. Reply with LOVE and concern and let them know you express sorrow as well. Let them know you are heartbroken at what's been done in the name of Christ and invite them to get to know you/your church better. Be open and honest.

The way you can tell someone truly loves and cares is when they show more concern for you, rather than your language or insults. People are going to say some harsh stuff as a result of this, to push your buttons. If the responses from us are defensive (such as, how DARE you accuse my perfect church of such) they are going to peg us all as hateful hypocrites. The IFB's I grew up with would automatically condemn people for bad language, low "standards" and deny wrongdoing while attacking the person who questions/comments.

So, my advice is still to show love. You might even want to make some kind of a statement on your website that addresses this, and provide links for godly Christian counseling for anyone who has experienced spiritual abuse. Also, if they make insults, you can let them know you understand because you'd like to clobber people, too, but you're going to pray for them (the other pastors, etc) and hope they will as well.

 

[Zenas]

Here is Chuck Phelps side of the story: http://www.drchuckphelps.com/index.html

I read the statements by Chuck Phelps. I also went to the Trinity Baptist website and watched the video clip by their present pastor, Brian Fuller. While Pastor Fuller doesn't directly contradict what Phelps said, he is very critical of the way the matter had been handled. I simply can't understand why the people allowed Phelps to continue as their pastor after this incident took place.

 

[menageriekeeper]

For those that were paying attention to the 20/20 segment: The stepfather went to jail and did several years.

What for Don? The segment told us. He went to jail for molesting A DIFFERENT CHILD! No one ever prosecuted him for molesting his own stepdaughter!

As the 20/20 segment points out, he was released, and was attending the same church.

Exactly. The same church, different pastors! Why was that? My take is that its because the second guy didn't know who he was and then had to backtrack and hemhaw about how folks in the church could have gone to s*x offender website!

Then 20/20 went on the attack against the current pastor about how he's dealing with convicted sex offenders in his church.

And they are right too! My own church does a complete background check including fingerprinting before we are allowed to work with the youth. (of course this only means they haven't been caught in Alabama. ) A pastor ought to understand the mechinisms for protecting the children in his own congregation. This was less of an attack than you make it out to be. This was a good question and the preacher couldn't answer it clearly (though it seems from the article that he fixed the problem later on and removed the man from the choir)

I give 20/20 no due.

It's this attitude that makes us hypocrites. Oh, it sounds good to be seen as standing up to the "liberal media" who are out to make Christianity look bad. But the problem with that thought is this:

We say that we don't have to answer to nonChristians/the media/the people in our congregation/anyone but God. Obviously *some* who call themselves IFB's aren't even answering to God. IF not God then who? My Bible says its the civil authorities and in our country it is the citizens including those who report in the media who bring such problems to the attention of the authories who are charged with bringing evil doers to justice.

They could have easily opened a phone book and called 50, 100, 1,000 IFB churches and gotten comments about the situation.

They could have. They didn't. That doesn't make this subject any less relevant.