Abc 20/20

[Don]

They could have. They didn't. That doesn't make this subject any less relevant.

When they classify an entire "sub-culture" based on one church and one pastor, when they could have easily done some type of sampling - it invalidates their entire summarization.

This story was about a girl abused by her church; the story ended with the result that an entire "denomination" (for lack of a better word at this moment) is being demonized. You can argue support for 20/20 all you want, but what they did was sensationalist tabloid journalism, not news reporting.

 

[Don]

Yes, I did read them before I posted, and my advice is the same. It doesn't matter if they use the F bomb, insulting language, etc. Reply with LOVE and concern and let them know you express sorrow as well. Let them know you are heartbroken at what's been done in the name of Christ and invite them to get to know you/your church better. Be open and honest.

The way you can tell someone truly loves and cares is when they show more concern for you, rather than your language or insults. People are going to say some harsh stuff as a result of this, to push your buttons. If the responses from us are defensive (such as, how DARE you accuse my perfect church of such) they are going to peg us all as hateful hypocrites. The IFB's I grew up with would automatically condemn people for bad language, low "standards" and deny wrongdoing while attacking the person who questions/comments.

So, my advice is still to show love. You might even want to make some kind of a statement on your website that addresses this, and provide links for godly Christian counseling for anyone who has experienced spiritual abuse. Also, if they make insults, you can let them know you understand because you'd like to clobber people, too, but you're going to pray for them (the other pastors, etc) and hope they will as well.

Good advice. I've been approaching it from "have you stopped to consider" and ending with "I'll be happy to discuss with you more." I offer no defense for Phelps; he'll have to do that on his own.

I had considered putting something on the main page of the website; you have some great inputs on that. Thanks.

 

[abcgrad94]

This story was about a girl abused by her church; the story ended with the result that an entire "denomination" (for lack of a better word at this moment) is being demonized. You can argue support for 20/20 all you want, but what they did was sensationalist tabloid journalism, not news reporting.

The "news" media is going to do what they do, but we can't shoot them for being the messenger in this case. The girl in this story did not get the help she deserved. Had the case been handled better, the secular news media wouldn't have needed to shock or surprise anyone with the story. It takes a lot of guts to expose sin. The victim should be commended for that.

Oh, and by the way, while it's good to have background checks, it seems that the registered offenders are not the ones to really worry about in the church. It's the holier-than-thou good Sunday Christians who abuse their kids and keep it quiet that I worry about. Those abused kids, like myself, are too scared to say anything, so the abusers never get justice and the church never realizes they have a molester in their midst. We need to train our church members to identify signs of abuse.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Oh, and by the way, while it's good to have background checks, it seems that the registered offenders are not the ones to really worry about in the church. It's the holier-than-thou good Sunday Christians who abuse their kids and keep it quiet that I worry about. Those abused kids, like myself, are too scared to say anything, so the abusers never get justice and the church never realizes they have a molester in their midst. We need to train our church members to identify signs of abuse.

I don't disagree!

 

[Jkdbuck76]

One thing that bothers me: Phelps says he contacted the police, and even mentions names...but there's no indication 20/20 attempted to obtain the police report, or interview the policemen named. Seems like that could easily corroborate-or disprove-Phelps' claims pretty quickly.

EXACTLY. This kind of thing is documented. I wonder if they couldn't get the report since (at the time) it involved a juvenile. Someone with some law-fu please chime in.

 

[John of Japan]

I read the statements by Chuck Phelps. I also went to the Trinity Baptist website and watched the video clip by their present pastor, Brian Fuller. While Pastor Fuller doesn't directly contradict what Phelps said, he is very critical of the way the matter had been handled. I simply can't understand why the people allowed Phelps to continue as their pastor after this incident took place.

Phelps himself said he should have handled it better. But we pastors all grow through our mistakes. In the meantime, Tina's own mother says she is lying in various statements, and that she is 100% grateful for Pastor Phelps' help, and is on his side. So personally I'm willing to give the pastor the benefit of the doubt--that maybe he didn't do as badly as the young lady says he did. Maybe he did his best in a difficult situation.

 

[John of Japan]

Thanks for the links, J of J, and I'll check back to see if Phelps' detractors here will retract their rash and ill-advised statements. When will you guys ever learn you don't get the whole story from the media?

There are always two sides to a story--the secular media side and the true side. In recent years, over and over I've seen not only Christians but companies and individuals of all sorts refuse to be interviewd by the broadcast news outlets. It's not hard to figure out why. They have gotten it wrong so many times and demonized so many individuals! They can ruin lives with but a sentence, but they don't seem to care.

 

[Don]

The "news" media is going to do what they do, but we can't shoot them for being the messenger in this case. The girl in this story did not get the help she deserved. Had the case been handled better, the secular news media wouldn't have needed to shock or surprise anyone with the story. It takes a lot of guts to expose sin. The victim should be commended for that.

Oh, and by the way, while it's good to have background checks, it seems that the registered offenders are not the ones to really worry about in the church. It's the holier-than-thou good Sunday Christians who abuse their kids and keep it quiet that I worry about. Those abused kids, like myself, are too scared to say anything, so the abusers never get justice and the church never realizes they have a molester in their midst. We need to train our church members to identify signs of abuse.

I propose that we start with the bible colleges. Not sure how we train our church members -- except for people like you (and me, if you'll recall an earlier post I made) passing on information.

 

[Don]

Phelps himself said he should have handled it better. But we pastors all grow through our mistakes. In the meantime, Tina's own mother says she is lying in various statements, and that she is 100% grateful for Pastor Phelps' help, and is on his side. So personally I'm willing to give the pastor the benefit of the doubt--that maybe he didn't do as badly as the young lady says he did. Maybe he did his best in a difficult situation.

John - I hate to play the "negative" side here, but there's another alternative: her mother may be so loyal to the pastor that she's wearing blinders. Just a thought.

 

[MamaCW]

Not sure if I totally agree with you.

ABC (the TV network, not the old Northern Bap conv) reported the "facts" of a few individuals.
Sure Godly Christians may understand that all IFB are not like that, but to the ungodly - all they see is Baptists regardless of sub-denomination.

I AGREE! I'm IFB and very happy..not a cult to the bozo who said that..

The media pursuades and this obviously went in the direction of trying to clump all IFB churches in the same category.. pretty retarded if you ask me..

Its a shame that that girl had to go through that...but I think she is also being coached by the producers of 20/20 to be completely negative about all ifb churches.. (and i'm not talking out of my other end.. i was in the tv/movie industry).. people from all over the country? what there were like 5 people? i'm sure there are more than 5 very bad teachers throughout the country ..doesnt mean every teacher in the US is bad.. this is just an attack..and its unfortunate that just like Salty stated.. those who are not saved will turn away from God because of things like this..(my dad used to do the same thing ..he called all christians hypocrites because of a couple bad encounters..)

That pastor, the step father, and those who covered up what happened are wrong..but we don't know the whole story.. this was obviously leaning in one direction..my questions include.. where was the mother...why didn't she go to her mother or the police..she wasn't too scared to tell her pastor or the other couple..why did she not mention it to her mom? she may have good reasons for not doing so..but she may also have other reasons..we don't know the whole story..

I completely disagree with how 20/20 is trying to portray ALL IFB churches..

 

[menageriekeeper]

her mother may be so loyal to the pastor that she's wearing blinders. Just a thought.

Or she's protecting herself.

JoJ, I don't know if you noticed, but it wasn't Tina that brought this to the (current) attention of the police nor to the attention of the media. That was done by a third party who read her postings on a website for survivors of abuse and went to the police who then contacted Tina. Perhaps we should give the victim the benefit of the doubt much as we shouldn't convict the perpetrators until the police have (finally) done their jobs.

 

[Don]

Or she's protecting herself.

Now that's a sobering thought, isn't it?

 

[John of Japan]

John - I hate to play the "negative" side here, but there's another alternative: her mother may be so loyal to the pastor that she's wearing blinders. Just a thought.

Well, I thought of that, and it's possible. But I believe he hasn't been her pastor since the incident in question. So if she was completely loyal at the time, you'd think she's gotten over it by now.

 

[John of Japan]

Or she's protecting herself.

JoJ, I don't know if you noticed, but it wasn't Tina that brought this to the (current) attention of the police nor to the attention of the media. That was done by a third party who read her postings on a website for survivors of abuse and went to the police who then contacted Tina. Perhaps we should give the victim the benefit of the doubt much as we shouldn't convict the perpetrators until the police have (finally) done their jobs.

I'm completely in favor of giving the victim the benefit of the doubt. But the thing is, Pastor Phelps was not the victim nor the perpetrator. Until 20/20 got ahold of him he was a highly respected pastor. (I've never met him, but know his reputation.) After seeing what 20/20 said about him, those who started out posting on this thread thought he was a jerk, a crook, a pastor who covered up sin. So their bias has done great damage to the spotless reputation of a good man.

I'm not completely against the secular American media. I watch what I can here in Japan. I think there are some good folk in the media. However, my main objection to much of what they do is not religious but ethical. Face it--the networks are not nonprofit. They have to make money. And often the way they do that tramples individuals. My wife can tell you how many times I've watched news programs on purely secular issues and said, "Oh, they just ruined that person's life. He'll never live that down."

Here in Japan the news media, while often toeing the government line and/or being pro-Japanese religion and culture, are very conscious about embarassing individuals. They often disguise faces or voices when interviewing people even on ordinary events. They don't expose people as "jerks" who are just trying to do their best in life. I just don't see that care in American news outlets.

 

[dcorbett]

ABC is not turning people against IFB churches..

Godly Christians are seeing the IFB churches for what they are... and the IFBs are turning away Godly christians...

Tim, Tim, Tim....(shaking head) as a victim of abuse by a Southern Baptist preacher, I must admonish you to not look at all of us IFB as some sort of mutation. I am SAVED BY GRACE, WASHED IN THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB, and I resent the slams around here on IFBs as if all of us are responsible for this horrible deed.

I have worked at a police dept for 25 years...there are SICKOS in every church and every walk of life. Some end up in IFB churches, some in Southern Baptist, some in Catholic, some in Lutheran,.......you name it, there are sickos there somewhere. Because churches are supposed to be hospitals for the souls of men.....

 

[kristensdaddy]

When they classify an entire "sub-culture" based on one church and one pastor, when they could have easily done some type of sampling - it invalidates their entire summarization.

This story was about a girl abused by her church; the story ended with the result that an entire "denomination" (for lack of a better word at this moment) is being demonized. You can argue support for 20/20 all you want, but what they did was sensationalist tabloid journalism, not news reporting.

How much Sampling do you want?

They were "kind" to BJU for not tying this up into one nice tidy bow. The "sub-culture" you deny flows directly from Greenville, SC. Phelps was a golden boy in the late 70's, he is currently vice chair of the FBF, directly tied back to BJU. His friend, Matt Olsen was also a golden boy at BJU, same years!. Current pastor of Trinity, BJU grad. Marquette Manor, one of the other abuse cases covered - VanGeldren family and now Canady - BJU all the way. Probably kind of them not to bring "the Wilds" into this as well. You know, having Phelps lead a youth ministries seminar subsequent to this being made public. For those of you who are just finding out about this, this has been known since last spring (2010), the mainstream media has just picked it up.

IFBx church I attended and was on staff following graduation - pastor (BJU grad) directly notified by three witnesses that a BJU grad father was molesting his daughter - to quote "that's family business, the church has no business there" If it were the 2000's instead of the 1980's that pastor would be in jail today. Sub-culture, My Eye.

Seeing a pattern here? This coverup, circle the wagons behavior goes straight back to their teachings from BJU. I speak from first hand knowledge of these folks. Phelps was my Sunday School teacher at BJU in the late 70's. Olsen was my hall monitor in 1978. Dave Canady (current pastor of MM) was the hall monitor on the other side of my hall - Graves dorm. VanGeldren's son was my hall monitor at BJU in 1981.

No, there is no sub-culture here (insert sarcasm icon here), quite frankly, it is not a sub-culture - it is the mainstream guiding principle these guys learned from BJU.

Sorry to ramble but this still makes me so angry that they (BJU and their ilk) can separate from folks over silly stuff like music but will circle the wagons to protect their own.

 

[Don]

How much Sampling do you want?

They were "kind" to BJU for not tying this up into one nice tidy bow. The "sub-culture" you deny flows directly from Greenville, SC. Phelps was a golden boy in the late 70's, he is currently vice chair of the FBF, directly tied back to BJU. His friend, Matt Olsen was also a golden boy at BJU, same years!. Current pastor of Trinity, BJU grad. Marquette Manor, one of the other abuse cases covered - VanGeldren family and now Canady - BJU all the way. Probably kind of them not to bring "the Wilds" into this as well. You know, having Phelps lead a youth ministries seminar subsequent to this being made public. For those of you who are just finding out about this, this has been known since last spring (2010), the mainstream media has just picked it up.

IFBx church I attended and was on staff following graduation - pastor (BJU grad) directly notified by three witnesses that a BJU grad father was molesting his daughter - to quote "that's family business, the church has no business there" If it were the 2000's instead of the 1980's that pastor would be in jail today. Sub-culture, My Eye.

Seeing a pattern here? This coverup, circle the wagons behavior goes straight back to their teachings from BJU. I speak from first hand knowledge of these folks. Phelps was my Sunday School teacher at BJU in the late 70's. Olsen was my hall monitor in 1978. Dave Canady (current pastor of MM) was the hall monitor on the other side of my hall - Graves dorm. VanGeldren's son was my hall monitor at BJU in 1981.

No, there is no sub-culture here (insert sarcasm icon here), quite frankly, it is not a sub-culture - it is the mainstream guiding principle these guys learned from BJU.

Sorry to ramble but this still makes me so angry that they (BJU and their ilk) can separate from folks over silly stuff like music but will circle the wagons to protect their own.

I refer you to a post I made after the one you quoted:

I propose that we start with the bible colleges. Not sure how we train our church members -- except for people like you (and me, if you'll recall an earlier post I made) passing on information.

May I propose you consider your definition of "sub-culture"? There are IFB churches that have no affiliation with BJU; are they of the same sub-culture?

 

[rickh]

How much Sampling do you want?

They were "kind" to BJU for not tying this up into one nice tidy bow. The "sub-culture" you deny flows directly from Greenville, SC. Phelps was a golden boy in the late 70's, he is currently vice chair of the FBF, directly tied back to BJU. His friend, Matt Olsen was also a golden boy at BJU, same years!. Current pastor of Trinity, BJU grad. Marquette Manor, one of the other abuse cases covered - VanGeldren family and now Canady - BJU all the way. Probably kind of them not to bring "the Wilds" into this as well. You know, having Phelps lead a youth ministries seminar subsequent to this being made public. For those of you who are just finding out about this, this has been known since last spring (2010), the mainstream media has just picked it up.

IFBx church I attended and was on staff following graduation - pastor (BJU grad) directly notified by three witnesses that a BJU grad father was molesting his daughter - to quote "that's family business, the church has no business there" If it were the 2000's instead of the 1980's that pastor would be in jail today. Sub-culture, My Eye.

Seeing a pattern here? This coverup, circle the wagons behavior goes straight back to their teachings from BJU. I speak from first hand knowledge of these folks. Phelps was my Sunday School teacher at BJU in the late 70's. Olsen was my hall monitor in 1978. Dave Canady (current pastor of MM) was the hall monitor on the other side of my hall - Graves dorm. VanGeldren's son was my hall monitor at BJU in 1981.

No, there is no sub-culture here (insert sarcasm icon here), quite frankly, it is not a sub-culture - it is the mainstream guiding principle these guys learned from BJU.

Sorry to ramble but this still makes me so angry that they (BJU and their ilk) can separate from folks over silly stuff like music but will circle the wagons to protect their own.

Complete nonsense! You make it sound like BJU has a Child Molestation 101 class that all freshmen must take. I've got my issues with BJU as well, but you are simply slandering people that would be completely against the filth you are talking about.

 

[Aaron]

I'll check back to see if Phelps' detractors here will retract their rash and ill-advised statements.

Wow. Not a one. Not even from the men.

 

[kristensdaddy]

Complete nonsense! You make it sound like BJU has a Child Molestation 101 class that all freshmen must take. I've got my issues with BJU as well, but you are simply slandering people that would be completely against the filth you are talking about.

No one has accused BJU or Phelps or Olsen, etc for being a molester. Didn't do well on reading comprehension, did you.

These pastors got their training from the same place, the place that teaches that you defend the "gospel" (with a small g) no matter who your trample in the process. We're right, you're wrong, end of story. That was the entire premise of the 20/20 program.