Scriptures calvinists must deal with...

[annsni]

No Regeneration. I just attended an event with a cousin who told me that he would rather go to hell & be with his friends than heaven. Imagine that....and he was serious too.

Yep, that's exactly it. It shocks me to hear that because I just can't even begin to fathom that thinking.

 

[DHK]

Yes they do - until they face the Creator. Then they realize that they were wrong. But have you ever spoken to an unsaved person about heaven and hell? I can't begin to tell you how many people have said they'd rather go to hell than heaven. Seriously. They go happily.

They are deceived as the rich man was. He lived in the lap of luxury and was very happy. He ignored God and chose his riches instead, but I don't believe you can conclude he went to hell "happily." That's a bit of a stretch. No, he awoke in hell "being tormented in this flame, and desired Lazarus that he would dip his finger in water and cool the tip of his tongue." Then he wanted Lazarus to go to his five brothers, lest they also come to this place.
No, he wasn't happy about it at all. He was deceived. He did not make a conscientious decision of "happily" rejecting Christ and clinging to his riches on the basis of knowing the reality of hell. Had you asked him when he was in hell if he would happily make the same decision again, would he give you the same answer. No, he was deceived.

 

[DHK]

No Regeneration. I just attended an event with a cousin who told me that he would rather go to hell & be with his friends than heaven. Imagine that....and he was serious too.

He was also deceived; maybe didn't even believe in the reality of hell. He was mocking you wasn't he? How can you take a deceived person's words seriously?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

They are deceived as the rich man was. He lived in the lap of luxury and was very happy. He ignored God and chose his riches instead, but I don't believe you can conclude he went to hell "happily." That's a bit of a stretch. No, he awoke in hell "being tormented in this flame, and desired Lazarus that he would dip his finger in water and cool the tip of his tongue." Then he wanted Lazarus to go to his five brothers, lest they also come to this place.
No, he wasn't happy about it at all. He was deceived. He did not make a conscientious decision of "happily" rejecting Christ and clinging to his riches on the basis of knowing the reality of hell. Had you asked him when he was in hell if he would happily make the same decision again, would he give you the same answer. No, he was deceived.

He didn't go to hell....says in scriptures the Lord loved him. He just lived his life in loneliness

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

He was also deceived; maybe didn't even believe in the reality of hell. He was mocking you wasn't he? How can you take a deceived person's words seriously?

I told you, he is my cousin & I know him. Up until recently, Ive also been him.

 

[DHK]

He didn't go to hell....says in scriptures the Lord loved him. He just lived his life in loneliness

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:23)

Don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. (Luke 16:23)

Don't know what you are talking about.

Im talkin bout the rich young man.

 

[DHK]

Im talkin bout the rich young man.

I never referred to the "rich young man."
I started talking about "They are deceived as the rich man was."
And proceeded to quote from Luke 16.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I never referred to the "rich young man."
I started talking about "They are deceived as the rich man was."
And proceeded to quote from Luke 16.

pardon me.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast, you posted...

A biblical christian obeys the gospel commision and seeks to bring the word of life to all he or she has opportunity to.

On that point we agree, brother!


AiC

 

[percho]

But the verse says ""But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you." not "Because you do not believe, you are not of my sheep". The verse clearly says that they do not believe BECAUSE they are not of His sheep.

I would like to say a big AMEN to that.

 

[percho]

The reason for wanting free will is man does not trust God to save him, therefore he wants to be able to choose God. That to him is his assurance he is saved. After all by his faith he believed.

 

[DHK]

The reason for wanting free will is man does not trust God to save him, therefore he wants to be able to choose God. That to him is his assurance he is saved. After all by his faith he believed.

I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. (John 10:9)
Yes.
It is the individual that chooses whether or not to enter the door. By making that decision he shall be saved, and then shall find pasture. Salvation occurs at the time you enter the door. It is by faith and only by faith (albeit we don't exclude the grace of God).

 

[Alive in Christ]

Percho....

The reason for wanting free will...

Its not a question of "wanting" free will. We simply HAVE free will. I can post on this website, or not. I can buy a new car, or keep the one I have a little longer. I can ask a woman to marry me, or not. I can go and fix myself a ham sandwich, or not.

And I can place my faith in Christ, or not.

...is man does not trust God to save him,...

Actually, there is no other way to be saved, then to trust Christ for salvation.

therefore he wants to be able to choose God. That to him is his assurance he is saved. After all by his faith he believed.

Because THAT IS THE GOSPLE OF JESUS CHRIST! Its the only way that anyone can be saved.

I may be wrong, and I apologize if I am, but you are coming across rather "smartalicy", as if you are are mocking the gosple.

The gosple, justification by faith alone, is the only way anyone can be saved.

AiC

 

[Iconoclast]

Iconoclast, you posted...



On that point we agree, brother!


AiC

Well...that is a start:laugh:...lets see if we can get some momentum going.

One thing I try to keep in mind...all who name the name of Christ are to serve Him....at whatever level or whatever vocation we are in.

I have opposed you and several others in here, but my desire is to provoke you to study to show your self approved,a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. We are all still learning.

One puritan wrote: if you cannot love a brother for who he is now, love him for who he will be in that day, because that is how Jesus loves Him.:wavey:

 

[Iconoclast]

I get it, I'm wrong just because you say I'm wrong...and not only here, but everywhere we disagree! The shock!

Of course you cannot consider your understanding of these texts to be in error.

Well come on WD....stop being lazy...2pet3 what is Peter speaking about?

I posted it is a contrast, which you seem to think is not correct? What was wrong with that Post...in your estimation?

I get it, I'm wrong just because you say I'm wrong...and not only here, but everywhere we disagree! The shock!

:laugh:

Good one WD.Do you expect I would say WD you are right...if I do not agree with you? Does that make sense?
Sometimes I agree with what you post, but usually it is not in these areas of study.

Of course you cannot consider your understanding of these texts to be in error.[/

Only if you can offer scriptural correction...I would welcome that rather than philosophical dead ends....so have at it,show how what I said about 2pet 3 is partly correct, totally correct. totally incorrect in your mind.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I don't agree with you, but let me give you the benefit of the doubt on this one verse. Even if it says what you say it teaches here, you can't get off so easy in this passage:

[God] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)
--This is even more forceful and the teaching of God's will that all be saved is more clearly stated than the passage in 2Pet.3:9. It is an undeniable truth that God's will is for all to be saved. It is also an undeniable fact that God's will is not always accomplished.

Thousands upon thousands of people pray "as Jesus taught them to pray,"
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

But is it? No. Rarely is God's will ever accomplished on earth as it is in heaven. Think about it. How is God's will accomplished in heaven? When you have that answer then compare it to those that pray this oft memorized prayer. In this context God's will is rarely accomplished.

Well for sure we do not agree when you say this;

It is also an undeniable fact that God's will is not always accomplished.
Thousands upon thousands of people pray "as Jesus taught them to pray,"
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

But is it? No. Rarely is God's will ever accomplished on earth as it is in heaven. Think about it.

The God I worship is described this way;

Psalm 115
1Not unto us, O LORD, not unto us, but unto thy name give glory, for thy mercy, and for thy truth's sake.

2Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

3But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased

35And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.

4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

DHK....Every detail of Gods will is accomplished everyday.

here is a lengthy section[from the 1689 confession] on providence that might help you with this, then I will address 1tim2

3._____ God, in his ordinary providence maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them at his pleasure.
( Acts 27:31, 44; Isaiah 55:10, 11; Hosea 1:7; Romans 4:19-21; Daniel 3:27 )

4._____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin. ( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )

5._____ The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good. ( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )

6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

7._____ As the providence of God doth in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it taketh care of his church, and disposeth of all things to the good thereof.
( 1 Timothy 4:10; Amos 9:8, 9; Isaiah 43:3-5 )


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[Alive in Christ]

Well...that is a start:laugh:...lets see if we can get some momentum going.

One thing I try to keep in mind...all who name the name of Christ are to serve Him....at whatever level or whatever vocation we are in.

I have opposed you and several others in here, but my desire is to provoke you to study to show your self approved,a workman that needeth not to be ashamed. We are all still learning.

One puritan wrote: if you cannot love a brother for who he is now, love him for who he will be in that day, because that is how Jesus loves Him.:wavey:

Well, thank you for sharing with everyone with such a grace filled post.

After I was born again, and I experienced christian fellowship for the 1st time, I very quickly discovered that I had entered a community that is filled with a completly different "breed" of people than exists in the lost world.

I share your sentiments. Although we on this forum site disagree with each other many times, we are still "family"...and that makes a such a difference.

Iconoclast is not my enemy...he is my brother.

We are all brothers and sisters. And its so nice when we treat each other that way.

AiC

 

[Iconoclast]

dhk

[God] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. (1 Timothy 2:4)

I posted this earlier but will re-use it now;
[QUOTEQuote:
1 Tim 2:4... who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Are all men going to be saved? Is thay what is being taught?Does the context suggest what men are meant by all?Does God want all men without exception to be saved?

or what does verse1 and 2,and three say?

Quote:
1I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

2For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. The all men who they pray for, are kings and all that are in authority. That is the all the passage is speaking of.....all kinds of men in authority,,,so that believers can live a quiet and peaceable life. Do you see this DHK?][/QUOTE]

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC,
We have real enemies....the world, the flesh, and the devil.
There are cults,and world religions.
Iron sharpens Iron....
17Iron sharpeneth iron; so a man sharpeneth the countenance of his friend.

I try to understand other views as accuratly as possible, then be able to say why I hold one or the other.
In other words...we have to try and follow where someone has gone to see where they have gone wrong....according to scripture.This in part should be what happens here. Sometimes the results and the conflicting ideas can be rough but other times it can change a persons total worldview.