Covenant Households 2 the flood and beyond

[Iconoclast]

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
AiC, PTL for His goodness!

Iconoclast and Revmwc, remember to take it easy on C/A, but I have a question for both of you:

Looking back from our perspective of the Ark only holding 8 humans and a bazillion animals, if the size was such that it could hold no more,

Why did Noah preach for 120 years if no more men were afforded the chance to repent?

Another thought I've always wondered about:

The ark was big and it took a good deal of water to make it move. That means it had to rain for several days before it began to move. But the Bible doesn't record anyone even coming near to ask for sanctuary. Why is that? God may have shut the door, but Noah was capable of opening a window.



Quote:
Why did Noah preach for 120 years if no more men were afforded the chance to repent?

12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

MK....it is clear in the text....God had purposed to:
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Why the hundred and twenty years?


Quote:
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


The long suffering of God...waited....like today.


Quote:
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


mk....the long suffering is God waiting,bearing with the sin of the ungodly,until all the elect are safe in the Ark...[CHRIST JESUS]..then the judgement comes.

see here;
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

and here again;

Quote:
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Mk....see it is a covenant thing...not a cal/arm thing.....
see how long-suffering is used?
look at the language used by God to Noah;

Quote:
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

The Covenant is always in view.....



Quote:
The ark was big and it took a good deal of water to make it move. That means it had to rain for several days before it began to move. But the Bible doesn't record anyone even coming near to ask for sanctuary. Why is that? God may have shut the door, but Noah was capable of opening a window.[/

If God shut the door...it would have been dis-obedience to attempt to open it, as if God was not right to judge the sin of the un-repentant ungodly.
Men are responsible to repent and believe...they have no guarentee of tommorow.

Quote:
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

 

[Luke2427]

Originally Posted by menageriekeeper
AiC, PTL for His goodness!

Iconoclast and Revmwc, remember to take it easy on C/A, but I have a question for both of you:

Looking back from our perspective of the Ark only holding 8 humans and a bazillion animals, if the size was such that it could hold no more,

Why did Noah preach for 120 years if no more men were afforded the chance to repent?

Another thought I've always wondered about:

The ark was big and it took a good deal of water to make it move. That means it had to rain for several days before it began to move. But the Bible doesn't record anyone even coming near to ask for sanctuary. Why is that? God may have shut the door, but Noah was capable of opening a window.



Quote:
Why did Noah preach for 120 years if no more men were afforded the chance to repent?

12And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. 13And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.

MK....it is clear in the text....God had purposed to:
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Why the hundred and twenty years?


Quote:
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


The long suffering of God...waited....like today.


Quote:
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


mk....the long suffering is God waiting,bearing with the sin of the ungodly,until all the elect are safe in the Ark...[CHRIST JESUS]..then the judgement comes.

see here;
13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

14Wherefore, beloved, seeing that ye look for such things, be diligent that ye may be found of him in peace, without spot, and blameless.

15And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;

and here again;

Quote:
21Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?


Mk....see it is a covenant thing...not a cal/arm thing.....
see how long-suffering is used?
look at the language used by God to Noah;

Quote:
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

The Covenant is always in view.....



Quote:
The ark was big and it took a good deal of water to make it move. That means it had to rain for several days before it began to move. But the Bible doesn't record anyone even coming near to ask for sanctuary. Why is that? God may have shut the door, but Noah was capable of opening a window.[/

If God shut the door...it would have been dis-obedience to attempt to open it, as if God was not right to judge the sin of the un-repentant ungodly.
Men are responsible to repent and believe...they have no guarentee of tommorow.

Quote:
26And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.

27They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.

I would just like to provide one addendum.

It did not take several days of rain before the ark floated.

The whole earth was flooded on the first day. The ark rose on day one.

And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. 11In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. 12And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights.

13In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; 14They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. 15And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. 16And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him: and the LORD shut him in.

 

[menageriekeeper]

We're gonna have to risk a C/A debate with the question I'm about to ask, but lets keep it civil, okay?

Luke, good point about the world flooding in the same day Noah entered the ark. In my dyslexia, I occasionally apply the wrong adjectives to the wrong subject. In the case the "seven days" refers to how long it took to load up the animals etc and not how long it took for the flood to begin.

This makes me wonder if the sudden destruction was to prevent Noah from the temptation to attempt to rescue any who sought to escape after the door had been shut.

That brings us to my original question: Why did God have Noah preach for 120 years if a) He knew no one would heed the call and b) He'd already given Noah the diminsions of the ark and certainly knew how much/many it could hold? (Upon rereading Iconoclast's post I see he's answered this)

Here's the second: If God knew as the Bible says the entire world save Noah was corrupted by evil, wouldn't it have been kinder to have caused the Noahs to be saved in a much quicker manner that would have stopped the production of even more evil humans? Why let humanity go on as it was for another 120 years of thinking up bad things to do? (by this I mean, was it possible for others of Noah's time to enter into the same Covenant offered to Noah? And if not why not?)

 

[Luke2427]

We're gonna have to risk a C/A debate with the question I'm about to ask, but lets keep it civil, okay?

Listen, I love a civil discussion. I prefer it.

But I have not yet become sanctified enough to put up with the trashy attacks that numerous people on here launch at everyone who disagrees with them.

I am not spiritual enough to let that crud go.

Usually these people are ignorant so I make it a point to hit them where it counts if they are going to attack me and others.

Let's do keep it civil.

None of this- your God is a monster business.

Luke, good point about the world flooding in the same day Noah entered the ark. In my dyslexia, I occasionally apply the wrong adjectives to the wrong subject. In the case the "seven days" refers to how long it took to load up the animals etc and not how long it took for the flood to begin.

Yes, the seven days were simply God's 2 minute warning. Game's over in seven days God said.

This makes me wonder if the sudden destruction was to prevent Noah from the temptation to attempt to rescue any who sought to escape after the door had been shut.

A more biblical motive would be to display his power and fierce wrath against sin and sinners.

That brings us to my original question: Why did God have Noah preach for 120 years if a) He knew no one would heed the call and b) He'd already given Noah the diminsions of the ark and certainly knew how much/many it could hold? (Upon rereading Iconoclast's post I see he's answered this)

Preaching is not PRIMARILY for souls or salvation.

Preaching is PRIMARILY for the glory of God. We preach for God, not for men.

Here's the second: If God knew as the Bible says the entire world save Noah was corrupted by evil, wouldn't it have been kinder to have caused the Noahs to be saved in a much quicker manner that would have stopped the production of even more evil humans?

The idea is not that Noah was not corrupt any more than the idea of the word "perfect" is that he was morally perfect.
The idea of the word "grace" is that God gave him favor he did not deserve.

Secondly, God has a purpose for the destruction of men. We don't have to fully understand it to believe it- but we DO have to believe it because God said it is so in his Word.

Why let humanity go on as it was for another 120 years of thinking up bad things to do? (by this I mean, was it possible for others of Noah's time to enter into the same Covenant offered to Noah? And if not why not?)

Once again, God has a purpose for all things.

If we can answer all the "Why would God.." questions that come our way then God would not be God.

It is the very fact that he is so far above us that we CANNOT comprehend why he does what he does that MAKES Him God.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hello MK,

Good questions lets take a look;

Here's the second: If God knew as the Bible says the entire world save Noah was corrupted by evil, wouldn't it have been kinder to have caused the Noahs to be saved in a much quicker manner that would have stopped the production of even more evil humans? Why let humanity go on as it was for another 120 years of thinking up bad things to do? (by this I mean, was it possible for others of Noah's time to enter into the same Covenant offered to Noah? And if not why not?)

If God knew as the Bible says the entire world save Noah was corrupted by evil, wouldn't it have been kinder to have caused the Noahs to be saved in a much quicker manner that would have stopped the production of even more evil humans?

MK....when thinking about some of these ideas,sometimes we ask a question and quickly try and solve the puzzle. It might be better with difficult questions to expand the question and frame it out some more[I will buy another vowel VANNA:laugh:]......then see if we can answer the question easier.
First] we need to remind ourselves again...that God has given this information to Moses by revelation. He has added or left out details as He has seen fit as it relates to the history of redemption.
In other words.....as we read it we might be tempted to speculate because it is hard for us to match our human emotions and thoughts with the words recorded for us to study.
Second] We know that God will always do what is right,and that perfectly. His judgement is always well thought out and flawless. When I am tempted to think......wouldn't it have been kinder to ....or what if kind of questions..
I fall back on the fact of a sovereign God who has everything happen as He has ordained for a Divine purpose!

With the question you have asked here I think a few verses that might help out...

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11For there is no respect of persons with God.

The goodness of God leaves men totally without excuse. It is meant to lead men to repentance...but they despise it. God keeps track of all sins of all men.
That is what is meant here.

3And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

Remember also that Noah was not a full time preacher in the sense of Him standing and giving out sermons.....Hebrews 11:7 says he 'moved with fear" and prepared an ark......I am sure much of his time and labour was spent in the physical gathering and assembling of the materials ,wood and pitch to obey the command of God....His preaching was both verbal and in physical works .

So now we come to this question....

Why let humanity go on as it was for another 120 years of thinking up bad things to do? (by this I mean, was it possible for others of Noah's time to enter into the same Covenant offered to Noah? And if not why not?)

I think not in this sense.....
Humanly speaking it would seem as if it was possible. In other words I see nothing saying that Noah turned them away, or refused them access to the building or entering into the ark... They would not They did not have any desire to obey God or His word...they were consumed with lust and evil thoughts

5And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

only evil ...continually only evil....not thoughts of God or holiness.

It is just like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

MK.....God gives His covenant to whom he wills....Noah , or Abraham or David, or any believer does not enter into covenant with God
here is Gen 9...look at the wording..it is all of God giving it to Noah...
And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying,

9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you; 11And I will establish my covenant with you,
15And I will remember my covenant.....it is God who keeps his oath and promise....men fail, God does not.
God graces them or gives them the grace,and faith to partake of the covenant.

The others in Noahs day [the world of the ungodly] were destroyed to protect the godly line.....it was not angels having relations with the women in Gen 6, it was more likely[my thoughts here] the ungodly were marrying the women who were in the godly line. The seed of the woman who was to come had to have a right lineage .....most OT judgements are explained by this.

In an earlier post you asked ...what if....some of the wicked wanted to climb in through the window? In revelation we see a verse that indicates the thoughts of some ungodly men when the judgement falls on them;

15And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

and again;

20And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:

21Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts.

They are so bound in sin ....they cannot come to God....without God allowing and enabling them too.
MK.....This is just the plain teaching of the word on mans condition without any controversy...

If God does not save us,we will not be saved...it is 100% grace and mercy.

 

[menageriekeeper]

Iconoclast, I quoted your entire post simply to make it easy on myself to comment. My comments will be in blue and most of this post will be requests for clarification.

Luke, I'm not ignoring you, but still processing your last post.

Hello MK,

Good questions lets take a look;




MK....when thinking about some of these ideas,sometimes we ask a question and quickly try and solve the puzzle. It might be better with difficult questions to expand the question and frame it out some more[I will buy another vowel VANNA:laugh:]......then see if we can answer the question easier. Yeah, this is part of the fact that I'm posting in between work sessions get everyone ready for Easter, lol. Not enough time to study.
First] we need to remind ourselves again...that God has given this information to Moses by revelation. He has added or left out details as He has seen fit as it relates to the history of redemption.
In other words.....as we read it we might be tempted to speculate because it is hard for us to match our human emotions and thoughts with the words recorded for us to study.
Second] We know that God will always do what is right,and that perfectly. His judgement is always well thought out and flawless. When I am tempted to think......wouldn't it have been kinder to ....or what if kind of questions..
I fall back on the fact of a sovereign God who has everything happen as He has ordained for a Divine purpose!

I may start another thread just on this subject because I think it might be out of the realm of our discussion on Covenant Theology. Luke, I'll want your input here too: Why does God need puny man to show His glory? (I have an opinion on this but I want to hear yours)

With the question you have asked here I think a few verses that might help out...

The goodness of God leaves men totally without excuse. It is meant to lead men to repentance...but they despise it. God keeps track of all sins of all men.
That is what is meant here.

We agree here, ithink, but there was a scripture passage that didn't follow the quote and that I don't recognize, could you provide the reference?

Remember also that Noah was not a full time preacher in the sense of Him standing and giving out sermons.....Hebrews 11:7 says he 'moved with fear" and prepared an ark......I am sure much of his time and labour was spent in the physical gathering and assembling of the materials ,wood and pitch to obey the command of God....His preaching was both verbal and in physical works .

So now we come to this question....


I think not in this sense.....
Humanly speaking it would seem as if it was possible. In other words I see nothing saying that Noah turned them away, or refused them access to the building or entering into the ark... They would not They did not have any desire to obey God or His word...they were consumed with lust and evil thoughts

I see this too, a part of a "judicial hardening" of sorts in order to provide a later example to mankind that God won't "always strive with man".

only evil ...continually only evil....not thoughts of God or holiness.

It is just like Jesus weeping over Jerusalem
37O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!

there was more, but I've run out of time and need to digest this for a while longer before responding.

Ya'll have a nice Ressurection Day if I don't get back before Monday!

 

[Iconoclast]

mk,

The goodness of God leaves men totally without excuse. It is meant to lead men to repentance...but they despise it. God keeps track of all sins of all men.
That is what is meant here.

We agree here, ithink, but there was a scripture passage that didn't follow the quote and that I don't recognize, could you provide the reference?

Romans 2
1Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance? 5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Why does God need puny man to show His glory? (I have an opinion on this but I want to hear yours)

I like this statement from the 1689 confession of faith.

Chapter 2: Of God and of the Holy Trinity
1._____The Lord our God is but one only living and true God; whose subsistence is in and of himself, infinite in being and perfection; whose essence cannot be comprehended by any but himself; a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions, who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; who is immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, every way infinite, most holy, most wise, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of his own immutable and most righteous will for his own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek him, and withal most just and terrible in his judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
( 1 Corinthians 8:4, 6; Deuteronomy 6:4; Jeremiah 10:10; Isaiah 48:12; Exodus 3:14; John 4:24; 1 Timothy 1:17; Deuteronomy 4:15, 16; Malachi 3:6; 1 Kings 8:27; Jeremiah 23:23; Psalms 90:2; Genesis 17:1; Isaiah 6:3; Psalms 115:3; Isaiah 46:10; Proverbs 16:4; Romans 11:36; Exodus 34:6, 7; Hebrews 11:6; Nehemiah 9:32, 33; Psalms 5:5, 6; Exodus 34:7; Nahum 1:2, 3 )
2._____God, having all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of himself, is alone in and unto himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creature which he hath made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting his own glory in, [/B]by, unto, and upon them; he is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things, and he hath most sovereign dominion over all creatures, to do by them, for them, or upon them, whatsoever himself pleaseth; in his sight all things are open and manifest, his knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to him contingent or uncertain; he is most holy in all his counsels, in all his works, and in all his commands; to him is due from angels and men, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience, as creatures they owe unto the Creator, and whatever he is further pleased to require of them.
( John 5:26; Psalms 148:13; Psalms 119:68; Job 22:2, 3; Romans 11:34-36; Daniel 4:25, 34, 35; Hebrews 4:13; Ezekiel 11:5; Acts 15:18; Psalms 145:17; Revelation 5:12-14 )

3._____ In this divine and infinite Being there are three subsistences, the Father, the Word or Son, and Holy Spirit, of one substance, power, and eternity, each having the whole divine essence, yet the essence undivided: the Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son; all infinite, without beginning, therefore but one God, who is not to be divided in nature and being, but distinguished by several peculiar relative properties and personal relations; which doctrine of the Trinity is the foundation of all our communion with God, and comfortable dependence on him.
( 1 John 5:7; Matthew 28:19; 2 Corinthians 13:14; Exodus 3:14; John 14:11; 1 Corinthians 8:6; John 1:14,18; John 15:26; Galatians 4:6 )


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[menageriekeeper]

Why did God have Noah preach for 120 years if a) He knew no one would heed the call and b) He'd already given Noah the diminsions of the ark and certainly knew how much/many it could hold? (Upon rereading Iconoclast's post I see he's answered this)

Guess what guys? In seeking to answer my own question, I found something I didn't expect. There is no evidence within scripture that I can find (which means I might be wrong) that supports the idea that Noah preached at all in those 120 years in the manner that we define "preaching" today. (that of giving speeches in order to turn men from their sin.) I am bypassing Jewish tradition that teaches otherwise in favor of Sola Scriptura.

Something else I find interesting is that evidently the flood didn't occur until Noah's father/grandfather/elder ancestors had all died. (in spite of their long lives)

This seems to mean that the Noahic Covenant was indeed meant for the Noah 8 alone, but leaves open the Adamic Covenant until the earth was destroyed, but men with the exception of Noah had rejected what God offered/demanded from them.

 

[Iconoclast]

Guess what guys? In seeking to answer my own question, I found something I didn't expect. There is no evidence within scripture that I can find (which means I might be wrong) that supports the idea that Noah preached at all in those 120 years in the manner that we define "preaching" today. (that of giving speeches in order to turn men from their sin.) I am bypassing Jewish tradition that teaches otherwise in favor of Sola Scriptura.

Something else I find interesting is that evidently the flood didn't occur until Noah's father/grandfather/elder ancestors had all died. (in spite of their long lives)

This seems to mean that the Noahic Covenant was indeed meant for the Noah 8 alone, but leaves open the Adamic Covenant until the earth was destroyed, but men with the exception of Noah had rejected what God offered/demanded from them.

Good post MK...
As it is God who gives us this information....thru Moses. It is God who highlights certain aspects of His Covenant redemption.
MK....I am currently re- reading/studying and learning more about this and finding the benefit of seeing all 66 books giving a unified message....rather than isolating and separating the teaching of scripture...it is wonderful to see how God intended it to be view as a unified truth.

 

[percho]

Another thought. I do not think God brought the flood to eradicate evil for he allowed Ham on the ark and you have to believe he knew just what kind of man he was. The father of Canaan, the most cursed people on the earth.

So was the purpose of the flood to show man God is capable of destroying all flesh and yet kept eight in order to replenish the earth more quickly? 2 Peter 2:5,6 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

 

[Allan]

Mk....see it is a covenant thing...not a cal/arm thing.....
see how long-suffering is used?
look at the language used by God to Noah;

Quote:
17And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

18But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

The Covenant is always in view.....

I have a question well maybe more like an observation that corresponds with the above and percho's as well, seen below:

Another thought. I do not think God brought the flood to eradicate evil for he allowed Ham on the ark and you have to believe he knew just what kind of man he was. The father of Canaan, the most cursed people on the earth.

So was the purpose of the flood to show man God is capable of destroying all flesh and yet kept eight in order to replenish the earth more quickly? 2 Peter 2:5,6 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned [them] with an overthrow, making [them] an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;

Not really wanting to get in a debate really, but regarding Noah I notice there was always an interesting thing regarding God's covenant with him. Much like the passage percho quoted.. it says God saved the eighth person Noah, but it doesn't reference God saving the other 7 saving nor does the wording (English or Greek) imply this either. (seriously, that caught me off guard a bit)

You get this same picture in Gen 8:1 where it states not that God remembered the 8 in the ark or those in the ark (or any other such variation), but that God remembered Noah, and everything else with him (paraphrase). We can also note this singling out of Noah from the other 7 in chapter 7 were God tells Noah that 'only' he has been found righteous in this generation. (so what about his wife, sons, and sons wives?). And no I'm not speaking of perfection or deserving or any other such arguments.. just stating that the others were not seen as such.

It is also interesting that when God told Noah to load up (so-to-speak) that when God closed the door, it doesn't state God closed 'them' in, but instead states God closed "him" in.

It is also somewhat of note that God does not state to Noah that He will establish His covenant with His family, only Him. He even distinguishes Noah FROM his family regarding the covenant in chapter 6 by expressing that HE will establish His covenant with him (singular)... and your family can come into the ark.

BUT then we read in chapter 9 God tells Noah that He will establish His covenant (actually a new covenant) with not only him (Noah) but his 'seed' as well as all living creatures, to not flood or destroy the whole earth again in/with water. Yet we never read that God extended His initial covenant to Noah's decedents or even his wife, with the EXCEPTION of the new covenant (that included all living creatures) not to flood the world again.

Even Hebrews 11 states that it was by faith Noah, moved with fear, built the ark to save his family.. and that 'he' became an heir to righteousness which is by faith.

So what it 'appears' is that God saved Noah with whom God had made a covenant, and those of his family with whom God made no such covenant nor extended it towards them. But I can find nothing that shows God extends the covenant to anyone except Noah. And while we can assume the others might likely have been saved, we have nothing to suggest it in scripture. We know Noah was moved by faith since the scripture directly tells us this, but we do not read anyone else was.

The next covenant God makes is with Abram, later known as Abraham. In THAT covenant we see God extending His covenant to his seed/progeny.

Your thoughts? For me, I was a bit surprised by the level of detail God gives to make it abundantly clear that Noah was the one He was looking after, even though God allowed his family to come along.

 

[percho]

I have a question well maybe more like an observation that corresponds with the above and percho's as well, seen below:


Not really wanting to get in a debate really, but regarding Noah I notice there was always an interesting thing regarding God's covenant with him. Much like the passage percho quoted.. it says God saved the eighth person Noah, but it doesn't reference God saving the other 7 saving nor does the wording (English or Greek) imply this either. (seriously, that caught me off guard a bit)

You get this same picture in Gen 8:1 where it states not that God remembered the 8 in the ark or those in the ark (or any other such variation), but that God remembered Noah, and everything else with him (paraphrase). We can also note this singling out of Noah from the other 7 in chapter 7 were God tells Noah that 'only' he has been found righteous in this generation. (so what about his wife, sons, and sons wives?). And no I'm not speaking of perfection or deserving or any other such arguments.. just stating that the others were not seen as such.

It is also interesting that when God told Noah to load up (so-to-speak) that when God closed the door, it doesn't state God closed 'them' in, but instead states God closed "him" in.

It is also somewhat of note that God does not state to Noah that He will establish His covenant with His family, only Him. He even distinguishes Noah FROM his family regarding the covenant in chapter 6 by expressing that HE will establish His covenant with him (singular)... and your family can come into the ark.

BUT then we read in chapter 9 God tells Noah that He will establish His covenant (actually a new covenant) with not only him (Noah) but his 'seed' as well as all living creatures, to not flood or destroy the whole earth again in/with water. Yet we never read that God extended His initial covenant to Noah's decedents or even his wife, with the EXCEPTION of the new covenant (that included all living creatures) not to flood the world again.

Even Hebrews 11 states that it was by faith Noah, moved with fear, built the ark to save his family.. and that 'he' became an heir to righteousness which is by faith.

So what it 'appears' is that God saved Noah with whom God had made a covenant, and those of his family with whom God made no such covenant nor extended it towards them. But I can find nothing that shows God extends the covenant to anyone except Noah. And while we can assume the others might likely have been saved, we have nothing to suggest it in scripture. We know Noah was moved by faith since the scripture directly tells us this, but we do not read anyone else was.

The next covenant God makes is with Abram, later known as Abraham. In THAT covenant we see God extending His covenant to his seed/progeny.

Your thoughts? For me, I was a bit surprised by the level of detail God gives to make it abundantly clear that Noah was the one He was looking after, even though God allowed his family to come along.

I agree with you. Even when you look at Abraham, the covenant was really with Abraham and his one seed Christ. To participate you have to be in Christ. If ye are Christ's then you are Abraham's seed and an heir. It is the same relationship you see with Lazarus and the rich man. Lazarus was in the bosom of Abraham and heir to the kingdom. The rich man is Judah and he is left out. Relationship. You see the same thing with Moses. God brought Moses out and Israel was baptized unto him.

I thought of another. Of Adam, and he represents mankind, it was said, "Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth." I do not think Adam lost this, it's just a promise to come for we see in Hebrews, "What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him? Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing [that is] not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. He didn't lose this or fall from it. He wasn't yet complete in his creation.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death. Made to die just as the first Adam was made to be able to die. Lower than the angels.

This promise was made to come through the Son of Man the last Adam, Jesus, the Word made flesh, the Son of God.

For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected [the same] in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only [they], but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, [to wit], the redemption of our body.

 

[Iconoclast]

:thumbs:Allan really enjoyed your last post....it is thought provoking. I am also constantly re-examining these issues. One thing I notice is that the padeo-baptists write more about these things because of their understanding of the covenant. They see in this.....a covenant headship in the home;
you said this,

Even Hebrews 11 states that it was by faith Noah, moved with fear, built the ark to save his family.. and that 'he' became an heir to righteousness which is by faith.

So what it 'appears' is that God saved Noah with whom God had made a covenant, and those of his family with whom God made no such covenant nor extended it towards them. But I can find nothing that shows God extends the covenant to anyone except Noah. And while we can assume the others might likely have been saved, we have nothing to suggest it in scripture. We know Noah was moved by faith since the scripture directly tells us this, but we do not read anyone else was.

The next covenant God makes is with Abram, later known as Abraham. In THAT covenant we see God extending His covenant to his seed/progeny.

Your thoughts? For me, I was a bit surprised by the level of detail God gives to make it abundantly clear that Noah was the one He was looking after, even though God allowed his family to come along.

My thoughts so far [ I have to drive again soon,will get back to it in a few hours] are this.....
1] God is going into detail showing how the judgement of the flood was to protect the godly line.
2]Noah as head of the home is mentioned....most times in the OT when God speaks of the His covenant being passed on.....Only the males are mentioned
Abraham, Issac ,Jacob etc. also the same with the geneologies.

Padeo writers offer that the covenant of grace is made available and preserved in the Godly line through the believing parents, with the males being the head of the household.....

so even the sign of the covenant[circumscion]. is given only to the male children at 8 days old.

Remember however that they believe that there is an outward administration of the covenant , as well as an inward administration...in other words, people could be in the outward form of the covenant, but not saved, only those in the inward administration were saved [the elect....] those who had a circumsised heart Deut30:6

As a Reformed Baptist I would welcome more covenant teaching from the baptist side of things....[Nehemiah Coxe, wrote the most extensively on it}
I like the padeo model and teaching on alot of these things, however I am not certain that it is an exact fit to the scripture,[more so when we get to the New Covenant] so I am a Reformed Baptist.

3] I have had a troubling thought or difficulty here, MRS NOAH,and the children. They were "saved" from the destruction and death by the flood, but as you note...it highlights the grace of God extended to Noah.....
So was the whole household saved spiritually? Or was it just saved temporarily from the water of death in the flood?
I tend to speculate..[ only a little bit here] that they were also saved by Noah's witness and testimony to them.....and then seeing God's word fulfilled exactly in the judgement....Like we as parents desire all of our children to confess Christ...
On the other hand when I see the presbyterian friends I have, go wild on household baptisms I cringe ,,,so I am still considering all the teaching i can get on it.

Allan and percho...will do more later as I find this type of study and questioning much more valuable than some of the clashes that take place in here, but I guess that goes with the territory.
I am leaving Missouri now, going into Oklahoma...will post when i get set up there for the night.

 

[Iconoclast]

Another section that shows Gods covenant dealing with the New Israel....based on His previous dealing with Noah, is found in Isa.54;

Isaiah 54
1Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child: for more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife, saith the LORD.

2Enlarge the place of thy tent, and let them stretch forth the curtains of thine habitations: spare not, lengthen thy cords, and strengthen thy stakes;

3For thou shalt break forth on the right hand and on the left; and thy seed shall inherit the Gentiles, and make the desolate cities to be inhabited.

4Fear not; for thou shalt not be ashamed: neither be thou confounded; for thou shalt not be put to shame: for thou shalt forget the shame of thy youth, and shalt not remember the reproach of thy widowhood any more.

5For thy Maker is thine husband; the LORD of hosts is his name; and thy Redeemer the Holy One of Israel; The God of the whole earth shall he be called.

6For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.

7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.

8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

9For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.

12And I will make thy windows of agates, and thy gates of carbuncles, and all thy borders of pleasant stones.

13And all thy children shall be taught of the LORD; and great shall be the peace of thy children.

14In righteousness shalt thou be established: thou shalt be far from oppression; for thou shalt not fear: and from terror; for it shall not come near thee.

It seems among other things that God is using His stedfastness in keeping the Noahic covenant to demonstrate the certainty of the new covenant promise to the new Israel here.

 

[Allan]

My thoughts so far [ I have to drive again soon,will get back to it in a few hours] are this.....
1] God is going into detail showing how the judgement of the flood was to protect the godly line.

Agreed

2]Noah as head of the home is mentioned....most times in the OT when God speaks of the His covenant being passed on.....Only the males are mentioned
Abraham, Issac ,Jacob etc. also the same with the geneologies.

Padeo writers offer that the covenant of grace is made available and preserved in the Godly line through the believing parents, with the males being the head of the household.....

I agree mostly, and sort-of not.
While I agree on the headship issue, but if we are to assume it carries on to others does not the covenant also needs be revealed to be extended by God toward others (more specifically their seed/children)?
Let me put it this way -
You give Abraham, Issac, and Jacob,ect... as an example of headship (for short). What is the distinguishing factor here regarding the headship Covenant between Noah and Abraham?
Noah's covenant was not extended to any of his family, yet the covenant to Abraham was extended to his offspring as well.. and thus you see in the lineage the Headship going from Abraham, to Issac, on to Jacob, ect.. But with Noah it stops with him. We do not read that any of His children were believers and scripture seems to bypass them to Noah grandson down the line who is in paganism.

Remember however that they believe that there is an outward administration of the covenant , as well as an inward administration...in other words, people could be in the outward form of the covenant, but not saved, only those in the inward administration were saved [the elect....] those who had a circumsised heart Deut30:6

I don't disagree here, and in fact it establishes the point of the sacrifice of Atonement which is offered for ALL Jewish practitioners (most specifically Israelites, and also part Jewish and gentiles who follow the same teachings)
Made for all but applied to those of faith. (not getting into that debate but showing how that fits with your statement above about there being an outward administration, yet an inward (sealing) administration as well).

3] I have had a troubling thought or difficulty here, MRS NOAH,and the children. They were "saved" from the destruction and death by the flood, but as you note...it highlights the grace of God extended to Noah.....
So was the whole household saved spiritually? Or was it just saved temporarily from the water of death in the flood?

Yes, I agree this is a bit of a difficult passage. But for me I see it lining up with my dispy view here.
While Noah was the one given the Covenant directly (example of OT peoples given God's word and relationship in direct manifested ways), those of the New Testament receive His word on/by the testimony of others and scripture says that our faith exceeds theirs for we believe without seeing (like Noah's wife, sons and son's wives) . And thus we become 'partakers' of their inheritance, being adopted in so-to-speak. And while Noah's son's family might have been nominal believers at best (thus why we don't see Noahs view expand but in fact degenerate to pagan views which Abram was accustomed) it does not necessitate they were not saved. God speaks to His covenant, and to whom it was made specifically. Though Noah's family 'might' have been saved, that does seem to extend itself past them to their children.

There are various types of dispy's but what I have always been taught is that the dispensations are divided by the various covenants (ways God interacted with man) and thus we do study those covenants, and how they form continuity one to other, establishing more and more the fullness of the final but actual and everlasting covenant established in Christ Jesus. We (Cov and Dips) just disagree on various ways they function. Much like C and A agree on the immutable truths of the 5 points, but disagree on how some aspects function while agree (for the most part) on others.

Allan and percho...will do more later as I find this type of study and questioning much more valuable than some of the clashes that take place in here, but I guess that goes with the territory.
I am leaving Missouri now, going into Oklahoma...will post when i get set up there for the night.

Drive carefully and enjoy.

 

[Allan]

Another section that shows Gods covenant dealing with the New Israel....based on His previous dealing with Noah, is found in Isa.54;


It seems among other things that God is using His stedfastness in keeping the Noahic covenant to demonstrate the certainty of the new covenant promise to the new Israel here.

Hmmm... The covenant mentioned here is specifically regarding flooding the earth (which He made with not only Noah but his sons and all creatures of the earth) but not the one He made with Noah prior to it. However yes, in that sense I agree His using it to illustrate the certainty of His covenant.. though He does not state anything about a 'New' Israel.

 

[Iconoclast]

Allan,
One thought here...

Noah's covenant was not extended to any of his family, yet the covenant to Abraham was extended to his offspring as well.. and thus you see in the lineage the Headship going from Abraham, to Issac, on to Jacob, ect.. But with Noah it stops with him. We do not read that any of His children were believers and scripture seems to bypass them to Noah grandson down the line who is in paganism.

Allan, for the godly line to be preserved someone had to be a believer from Noahs family......everyone else perished in the flood.

8And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;
this looks like a link here,plus the post flood geneolgy after the flood,gen10

I will try to work on Isa54 tommorow....the new Israel.I find this very interesting.

 

[Allan]

Allan,
One thought here...


Allan, for the godly line to be preserved someone had to be a believer from Noahs family......everyone else perished in the flood.

Not so.. only the physical lineage needed to maintained that one OF THAT line take it up again. That physical line maintains the blood line, but there is no Spiritual line. In fact, after Noah, we read of no one in Abram's line that he had contact with who followed the Lord. God called Abram out of paganism. The only other person we find in scripture who served God was the Priest/King Melchizedek (or Mel for short ) and yet we know he was not part of Abram's line with the exception of Noah being the father of Shem, Ham, and Japheth.

8And God spake unto Noah, and to his sons with him, saying, 9And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you;

this looks like a link here

You left off the last part -

Gen 9:9 And I, behold, I establish my covenant with you, and with your seed after you
Gen 9:10 And with every living creature that [is] with you, of the fowl, of the cattle, and of every beast of the earth with you; from all that go out of the ark, to every beast of the earth.

This is a NEW covenant God is establishing, specifically not to flood the earth again in anger to destroy all life. God is not speaking to the initial covenant He made with Noah.

 

[percho]

Were Noah and Abram alive upon the earth at the same time? What concept did Abram have of God the creator and where did it come from? Did they do what they did because of some indwelling goodness and concept they had of God within them (what you would call faith) or was it because God called them to bring about the promise and the purpose of the seed of the woman?

Another good question is, What is that purpose and how is it carried out?

Will we not be saved because of, and only because of our covenant relationship with howbeit the Word made flesh, a man, the Son of Man, Jesus and only because he died and was made alive again in the Spirit? Is that not where our eternal salvation will come from?

 

[Iconoclast]

Were Noah and Abram alive upon the earth at the same time? What concept did Abram have of God the creator and where did it come from? Did they do what they did because of some indwelling goodness and concept they had of God within them (what you would call faith) or was it because God called them to bring about the promise and the purpose of the seed of the woman?

Another good question is, What is that purpose and how is it carried out?

Will we not be saved because of, and only because of our covenant relationship with howbeit the Word made flesh, a man, the Son of Man, Jesus and only because he died and was made alive again in the Spirit? Is that not where our eternal salvation will come from?

Yes, Jesus died a Covenant death for His sheep, His people, The Israel of God,THE CHURCH, The elect,The Beloved,The saints,...they and they only receive the saving love of God in salvation.They alone repent and believe
in Jesus Christ as Lord.Jesus seeks and saves His sheep.He finds everyone of them.