Perseverance of the Saints

You're right. But that cuts both ways. Your words..."This verse says nothing about the work...by an individual"

Peace

Dave

 

The ellipsis you employed cut out the phrase "that may be resisted" thus referring to the work of God, not man, so I'm not sure what point you are driving at by that statement.

 

:thumbsup::thumbs::applause:

 

If by "genuine saving faith" you mean that the person is "born again" is "the new creation' and thus is what we call "saved" --- THEN that is a self-conflicted statement on the face of it.

If you do not persevere in holding on to what you do not have in the first place then it is a "sign" ... of what? It is a sign that the person talking in such a way is using a self-conflicted argument. It is nonsense to argue that "proof of something" is "failure to hold on to and keep -- that which you never had to start with"!! The only "proof" in such a statement is that the one making it is in a desperate situation and has lost the logic in his argument and so results in self-conflicted circular statements as "proof".

If on the other hand you are talking about the saved person that later becomes lost - vs the saved person that "perseveres firm to the end" - then it works but it is misleading to call one of them 'saving faith' when in fact both people in their saved stated are fully accepted in the beloved. Both are adopted sons and daughters of God at some point. It is not as though God holds one of them "at a distance" saying "yes but I know that in the future you will fail to persevere so we are not going to be that close".

in Christ,

Bob

 

Here is the question for the group.

Does the Bible instruct the rock to 'persevere in remaining a rock" or the chair to "persevere in remaining a chair" or the human to "persevere in remaining a human"?

I think we all agree that when it comes to that "which CANNOT change" there is no instruction to "persevere" as if one must apply conscious choice and thus effort to "keep being a human being".

Neither are the lost told to "persevere in holding on to your lost state lest you become lost-ER" as some would have it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

The Bible tells us there are four primary ways we can know that we are saved:

1. Our testimony
2. Our doctrine
3. Our fruit
4. Our sanctification

Because we have the promises of Christ.

To clarify, we don't deny "choice". We deny the ability and will to seek and please God.

I'm glad you have believed, but if you believed, then you believed by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by your own power.

Same answer as last time you asked.

Do you not believe that Christ is competent to keep that which the Father has given Him? Or that He is able to keep us from falling?

 

Halloween's over. You can take the straw man down now.

Nobody has made the argument that God "forces" you to do anything.

So is the command to be perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Are you able to that, by yourself, too?

You mean like giving us a law we can't follow for the purpose of showing us our sin?

Let me ask you this: according to the Bible, who seeks God? Who does good?

A spiritually dead man, a carnal man at enmity with God has that ability? What verse is that?

Repeating a straw man doesn't make it a valid argument.

Then you're a Pelagian.

 

Please feel free to show where I ever said that God "forces" us. If you can't argue honestly, then you have no argument and I have no desire to play your games.

"As I say"??? Really? I said that??? Sorry, but I never said that and you know it.

Based on the fact that you believe you initiate your own salvation, I don't believe you do.

So then, God's sovereign will can be thwarted?

That's kind of odd, isn't it? That God chose us, predestined us, but that we can opt out? That doesn't say much for His sovereign will or foreknowledge, does it? You realize that what you're saying here amounts to open theism, which is heresy, right? No, on second thought, you probably don't.

Well, at least you give Him that much credit. I was sure you were going to tell us that you convicted yourself.

Incidentally, would you mind explaining how a carnal man, a spiritually dead man, can repent without first being convicted by the Holy Spirit?