Perseverance of the Saints

[allinall]

That begs the question that the work He is starting is an irresistible working. This verse says nothing about the work that may be resisted by an individual and thus never really "begun." Make sense?

You're right. But that cuts both ways. Your words..."This verse says nothing about the work...by an individual"

Peace

Dave

 

[Skandelon]

You're right. But that cuts both ways. Your words..."This verse says nothing about the work...by an individual"

Peace

Dave

The ellipsis you employed cut out the phrase "that may be resisted" thus referring to the work of God, not man, so I'm not sure what point you are driving at by that statement.

 

[quantumfaith]

I respect that. This is one of the reasons I ended up leaving Calvinism. I believe God COULD just flip a switch in someone's heart and make them willing to do whatever He wants, but I just don't think God works that way.

Jonah, for example, didn't want to preach to Ninevah, and God could have simply "quicken" or "awakened" or "enlightened" him by some effectual inward working to make him want to go, but He didn't. He use normative/outward means (storm/big fish). I think the same is true with how it works with us. He could do as Calvinists suppose by simply flipping a switch (i.e. regeneration) and make people willing to do what they didn't previously want to do, but how is that different from making the rocks cry out? I believe God uses means such as the preaching of gospel, teaching, debate, envy, circumstances, prayers, the church, nature, signs, etc etc, to persuade men to change their minds. These means are resistible, but nonetheless they are "of God." As such, God gets the credit for bringing what was needed for salvation, and man gets the blame for his resistance of the clearly revealed and understood truth...thus making them truly "without excuse."

:thumbsup::thumbs::applause:

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by allinall
One of the evidences of a genuine saving faith is perseverance in that faith. If one does not persevere, he never had a genuine saving faith to begin with. Thus, one cannot lose what He never had (1 John 2:19).

If by "genuine saving faith" you mean that the person is "born again" is "the new creation' and thus is what we call "saved" --- THEN that is a self-conflicted statement on the face of it.

If you do not persevere in holding on to what you do not have in the first place then it is a "sign" ... of what? It is a sign that the person talking in such a way is using a self-conflicted argument. It is nonsense to argue that "proof of something" is "failure to hold on to and keep -- that which you never had to start with"!! The only "proof" in such a statement is that the one making it is in a desperate situation and has lost the logic in his argument and so results in self-conflicted circular statements as "proof".

If on the other hand you are talking about the saved person that later becomes lost - vs the saved person that "perseveres firm to the end" - then it works but it is misleading to call one of them 'saving faith' when in fact both people in their saved stated are fully accepted in the beloved. Both are adopted sons and daughters of God at some point. It is not as though God holds one of them "at a distance" saying "yes but I know that in the future you will fail to persevere so we are not going to be that close".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Here is the question for the group.

Does the Bible instruct the rock to 'persevere in remaining a rock" or the chair to "persevere in remaining a chair" or the human to "persevere in remaining a human"?

I think we all agree that when it comes to that "which CANNOT change" there is no instruction to "persevere" as if one must apply conscious choice and thus effort to "keep being a human being".

Neither are the lost told to "persevere in holding on to your lost state lest you become lost-ER" as some would have it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JohnDeereFan]

How do you know you are the elect of God?

The Bible tells us there are four primary ways we can know that we are saved:

1. Our testimony
2. Our doctrine
3. Our fruit
4. Our sanctification

What assurance do you have?

Because we have the promises of Christ.

I know because I have believed. But you deny choice, free will.

To clarify, we don't deny "choice". We deny the ability and will to seek and please God.

I'm glad you have believed, but if you believed, then you believed by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by your own power.

What assurance do you have that you are one of the elect?

Same answer as last time you asked.

How can you know for sure. Are you sure you are eternally secure in the hand of God? If so, how are you sure?

Do you not believe that Christ is competent to keep that which the Father has given Him? Or that He is able to keep us from falling?

 

[DHK]

The Bible tells us there are four primary ways we can know that we are saved:

1. Our testimony
2. Our doctrine
3. Our fruit
4. Our sanctification

I see someone dug this thread up from 2011, two years ago.
You have stated all good points.
I would add to that Romans 8:16. His Spirit bears witness with my spirit that I am a child of God.

Because we have the promises of Christ.

Very true. Our assurance of salvation is in the Scripture--in His promises.

To clarify, we don't deny "choice". We deny the ability and will to seek and please God.

I'm glad you have believed, but if you believed, then you believed by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by your own power.

I disagree. The Holy Spirit did not "force" me to believe. I don't find that teaching in the Bible. The command "to believe," "to call," "to repent," etc., are all in the Bible and are all for us to do on our own accord. God doesn't force us.
The times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commands all men everywhere to repent.
He doesn't give a command that man cannot obey. It is evident that man has that ability. He has both the ability to repent and the choice whether or not he will. God doesn't force him. Neither does God give him the faith to believe. He believes with his own faith, not with God's faith.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

I disagree. The Holy Spirit did not "force" me to believe. I don't find that teaching in the Bible.

Halloween's over. You can take the straw man down now.

Nobody has made the argument that God "forces" you to do anything.

The command "to believe," "to call," "to repent," etc., are all in the Bible and are all for us to do on our own accord.

So is the command to be perfect, even as your Heavenly Father is perfect. Are you able to that, by yourself, too?

He doesn't give a command that man cannot obey.

You mean like giving us a law we can't follow for the purpose of showing us our sin?

It is evident that man has that ability.

Let me ask you this: according to the Bible, who seeks God? Who does good?

He has both the ability to repent and the choice whether or not he will.

A spiritually dead man, a carnal man at enmity with God has that ability? What verse is that?

God doesn't force him.

Repeating a straw man doesn't make it a valid argument.

Neither does God give him the faith to believe. He believes with his own faith, not with God's faith.

Then you're a Pelagian.

 

[DHK]

Halloween's over. You can take the straw man down now.

What straw man? Look at what you said:

I'm glad you have believed, but if you believed, then you believed by the power of the Holy Spirit, not by your own power.

The Holy Spirit did not force me to believe as you say. I cannot accept your statement at face value. I put my faith and trust in Christ. It is as simple as that.
The ministry of the Holy Spirit is given here:

John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
10 Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

He convicts of sin. He doesn't force one to believe. We still have choice. Grace can still be resisted.

 

[JohnDeereFan]

What straw man? Look at what you said:

Please feel free to show where I ever said that God "forces" us. If you can't argue honestly, then you have no argument and I have no desire to play your games.

The Holy Spirit did not force me to believe as you say.

"As I say"??? Really? I said that??? Sorry, but I never said that and you know it.

I cannot accept your statement at face value. I put my faith and trust in Christ.

Based on the fact that you believe you initiate your own salvation, I don't believe you do.

He doesn't force one to believe. We still have choice. Grace can still be resisted.

So then, God's sovereign will can be thwarted?

That's kind of odd, isn't it? That God chose us, predestined us, but that we can opt out? That doesn't say much for His sovereign will or foreknowledge, does it? You realize that what you're saying here amounts to open theism, which is heresy, right? No, on second thought, you probably don't.

He convicts of sin.

Well, at least you give Him that much credit. I was sure you were going to tell us that you convicted yourself.

Incidentally, would you mind explaining how a carnal man, a spiritually dead man, can repent without first being convicted by the Holy Spirit?