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is it A MUST That Your pastor/Church Teach/Preach Calvinism?

JesusFan

Well-Known Member
Which is why only Calvinism is correct. It is the very definition of solid exegesis wroght from proper hermeneutics.

But is i asystem of theology inspired, as the Apostles Paul/Peter/John etc were?

I believe in the points of it, more of a moderate form, but also realise that neither a Calvinist nor an arminian can claim their syatem is "perfect/only correct" way to understand the Bible, as those systems came from scholars theologians but NONE were Apostles!

Agree more with Calvinism than with Arminianism , but cannot with dogmatism state that it is the "only correct way to understand Bible" as at times think we tend to have such a rigid mindset on the points cannot see "grey areas" or take seriously some of the "problems" within system

just saying, we can have a "better" way to see bible, but not "perfect/correct" as none of us are Apostles for today!
 
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But is i asystem of theology inspired, as the Apostles Paul/Peter/John etc were?

I believe in the points of it, more of a moderate form, but also realise that neither a Calvinist nor an arminian can claim their syatem is "perfect/only correct" way to understand the Bible, as those systems came from scholars theologians but NONE were Apostles!

Agree more with Calvinism than with Arminianism , but cannot with dogmatism state that it is the "only correct way to understand Bible" as at times think we tend to have such a rigid mindset on the points cannot see "grey areas" or take seriously some of the "problems" within system

just saying, we can have a "better" way to see bible, but not "perfect/correct" as none of us are Apostles for today!

There is just one truth.
 

sag38

Active Member
Osage is taking the same position as those who would force the KJV on us as the only legitimate English Bible or those who would force dispensational interpretation as the only legitimate eschatology.....
 
Osage is taking the same position as those who would force the KJV on us as the only legitimate English Bible or those who would force dispensational interpretation as the only legitimate eschatology.....

I don't care about what translation you use or what eschatology you think is correct. What matters is the gospel and the gospel isn't correctly presented unless it is presented the way calvinism presents it.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
I don't care about what translation you use or what eschatology you think is correct. What matters is the gospel and the gospel isn't correctly presented unless it is presented the way calvinism presents it.

So I guess the apostolic fathers and just about everyone didn't even preach the gospel until Augustine came along to straighten them out, uh?

Even Calvinistic scholar Loraine Boettner readily admits that the "Calvinistic" view of Predestination can't be found until Augustine in nearly the fifth century, and that mostly affected Western thought.

It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of Predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation. They of course taught that salvation was through Christ; yet they assumed that man had full power to accept or reject the gospel. Some of their writings contain passages in which the sovereignty of God is recognized; yet along side of those are others which teach the absolute freedom of the human will. Since they could not reconcile the two they would have denied the doctrine of Predestination... It was hard for man to give up the idea that he could work out his own salvation. But at last, as a result of a long, slow process, he came to the great truth that salvation is a sovereign gift which has been bestowed irrespective of merit; that it was fixed in eternity; and that God is the author in all of its stages. This cardinal truth of Christianity was first clearly seen by Augustine, the great Spirit-filled theologian of the West. In his doctrines of sin and grace, he went far beyond the earlier theologians, taught an unconditional election of grace, and restricted the purposes of redemption to the definite circle of the elect. It will not be denied by anyone acquainted with Church History that Augustine was an eminently great and good man, and that his labors and writings contributed more to the promotion of sound doctrine and the revival of true religion than did those of any other man between Paul and Luther. -- Loraine Boettner

So, I suppose all those believers prior to Augustine and those affected by more Eastern thought just didn't understand the true gospel. :(
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
It also could be noted that very few after Augustine taught the Calvinistic doctrine of Predestination either:

From the time of Augustine until the time of the Reformation very little emphasis was placed on the doctrine of Predestination. We shall mention only two names from this period: Gottschalk, who was imprisoned and condemned for teaching Predestination; and Wycliffe, ‘The Morning Star of the Reformation,’ who lived in England. Wycliffe was a reformer of the Calvinistic type, proclaiming the absolute sovereignty of God and the Foreordination of all things. His system of belief was very similar to that which was later taught by Luther and Calvin. The Waldensians also might be mentioned for they were in a sense ‘Calvinists’ before the Reformation, one of their tenets being that of Predestination. (same source)

Too bad so many people went without the gospel. Maybe there really will be only 144,000 saved. :(
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Actually, I do 'visit" that board a lot, applied to become a member, was not "reformed" enough though...

From what I have seen there..
That board is MUCH tougher to those who are not KJV people, or dispy/non cal or believe in gifts!

Thats odd...most reform are NOT King James. But your correct, they want you to fit a mold. The big argument there is baptism. you will never get a theological discussion. however there isn't the incessant Calvinist/Non Calv BS. You start that discussion & your out the door. I think many Calvinists in here are getting disgusted & leaving for more comfortable forums though.
Can't say I blame them.
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
You're going to find that there will be times when people will have no stomach for solid teaching, but will fill up on spiritual junk food - catchy opinions that tickle their fancy. 2 Timothy 4:3 MSG
 

Earth Wind and Fire

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
So I guess the apostolic fathers and just about everyone didn't even preach the gospel until Augustine came along to straighten them out, uh?


So, I suppose all those believers prior to Augustine and those affected by more Eastern thought just didn't understand the true gospel. :(

See, now we totally agree:laugh:
 
So I guess the apostolic fathers and just about everyone didn't even preach the gospel until Augustine came along to straighten them out, uh?

Even Calvinistic scholar Loraine Boettner readily admits that the "Calvinistic" view of Predestination can't be found until Augustine in nearly the fifth century, and that mostly affected Western thought.



So, I suppose all those believers prior to Augustine and those affected by more Eastern thought just didn't understand the true gospel. :(

Jesus Christ, Paul, all the apostles, the entire bible teaches calvinism. Augustine is the first extrabiblical theologian to systematize it Luther and Calvin expanded. It just got calvin's name because he wrote the institutes.
 

Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
Jesus Christ, Paul, all the apostles, the entire bible teaches calvinism.
So says you, but that wasn't the point I was making.

Augustine is the first extrabiblical theologian to systematize it Luther and Calvin expanded. It just got calvin's name because he wrote the institutes.
Again, not the point. The point was that there were generations of church history and large groups in many areas that believed and professed Jesus as Lord and Savior but didn't even know of the Calvinistic views and you would have us to believe they didn't know the gospel. That is absurd.
 
So says you, but that wasn't the point I was making.


Again, not the point. The point was that there were generations of church history and large groups in many areas that believed and professed Jesus as Lord and Savior but didn't even know of the Calvinistic views and you would have us to believe they didn't know the gospel. That is absurd.

They either didn't know it or didn't know it correctly.

There were many centuries where the Roman Catholic Church held christianity hostage.
 

psalms109:31

Active Member
Wow!

There is just one truth.


Those foolish people with a no name theology who just trust in Jesus and not Calvinism are just out of luck until they do right, because it is a self-salvation? Is that where you heading with this? What I am seeing by what you post is they rejected the gospel, by rejecting Calvinism. You giving them the word of truth, so they are without excuse right?
 
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Skandelon

<b>Moderator</b>
It just a good thing Augustine and others like him came along to complete the revelation by giving us the full gospel, right? ;)
 

Alive in Christ

New Member
Reformed Baptist said...

I'll take solid exegesis covered in proper hermeneutics rather than the man who thinks the Holy Spirit is teaching him.

Wow.

A point blank denial of the scriptural truth that the Holy Spirit is ultimetly our teacher.


John 16:13...

13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

These ultra calvinists are something else, and not in a good way.

They are just [Edited - No personal attacks are permitted]

(Not all of them, and not all the time..but some of them, most of the time) :tear:

AiC
 
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Crabtownboy

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jesus Christ, Paul, all the apostles, the entire bible teaches calvinism. Augustine is the first extrabiblical theologian to systematize it Luther and Calvin expanded. It just got calvin's name because he wrote the institutes.

Before Augustine became a Christian he was a "hearer" of the Gnostics. He did not have the self-discipline to be of the "elect." The Gnostics believe there was the elect, the hearers, and the lost or un-elect. Augustine brought this erroneous belief into Christianity, jettisoning the "hearer' group as it could not be fit into scripture, and then found and twisted scripture to fit his Gnostic belief in the elect and the non-elect. Calvin was greatly influenced by Augustine and, unfortunately, bought this erroneous idea into his systematic theology and this has caused much trouble within the Christian community since.

Augustine was a follower of Mani, a Gnostic.

Mani divided his church into 2 groups; The Elect, The Hearers and then The Sinners.

* The Elect (perfects): those who had taken upon themselves the vows of Manicheaism
* The Hearers (auditores): those who had not taken vows, but still participated in the Church
* The Sinners: everyone else

http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...www.google.com

Mani defined total depravity as:

“…the nature of man can be corrupt to the point that his will is powerless to obey God’s commands.” – Henry Chadwick, “The Early Church”, Penguin Books Ltd (August 1994), pg. 228.

Calvin defined total depravity as:

as a consequence of the fall of man into sin, every person born into the world is enslaved to the service of sin. People are not by nature inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength, but rather all are inclined to serve their own interests over those of their neighbor and to reject the rule of God.
David Steele and Curtis Thomas, “The Five Points of Calvinism Defined, Defended, Documented”, pg. 25.

See the connection?
 

David Lamb

Well-Known Member
I don't know how it was during the time of Spurgeon. I am not a historian. I do know there was time that if you did not believe what the church believed at the time. You would be exiled, murdered. If it was that way during that time. Spurgeon did the best he could to spread the Gospel of Jesus that many did come and God used him well.

I'm not a historian either, but I can assure you that Spurgeon (1834-1892) lives a long time after the era when people were put to death or exiled for disagreeing with "the church".

I'm not sure what you meant by "the church" - the local church (in Sprgeon's case, The Metroplitan Tabernacle for most of his pastoring life)? I don't think Spurgeon disagreed with that.

Baptist churches generally? Well, particularly towards the end of his life, Spurgeon was greatly saddened by what came to be known as the "Downgrade Controversy" which eventually resulted in him and his church withdrawing from the Baptist Union. This began because many of the churches in the Baptist Union (and other evangelical denominations too) were denying, or at least downgrading (dumbing down, as we would say today) such vital things as the authority of God's Word, the virgin birth, and the atonement. Clearly Spurgeon did not agree with such things, but he wasn't exiled or murdered.

The Church of England, the so-called "state church"? Yes, like all baptists, Spurgeon would have disagreed with the CofE on such things as baptism, church order, the separation of church and state, and much more. Yet he wasn't exiled or murdered.
 
just HOW vital is it to you that your pastor(s) and Church officially teaches/preaches calvinism?

Does it matter if either 4/5 points of TULIP?

Would you not be able to even attend/membership with a Church that teaches/preaches strongly the Bible
just epouses armenion theology?

The church that teaches man must be saved, preaches jesus alone can save, believes bible is infallible, second coming etc...

MUST they also be Cal for you to attend?

Adrressed to Cals in the audience!

May I address this, being in the FW camp? I hope its okay.

I would like to take this in another direction(for my post only, and not to derail this thread). Would it be okay for your pastor/moderator to preach FW? At my church, the pastor who preaches calvinism, will not be pastor for long. Why? We do not believe the scriptures that way, and therefore, for the harmony of our church, we wouldn't have a pastor that holds to calvinism. If the church isn't in harmony, how can the Light shine to a lost community? So for us to be in harmony, we must all agree...not on every little thing, but calvinsim, or not calvinism, rather, should be a major sticking point.

It would be like the church that has members who believe a christian can backslide/fall from grace and others that do not. After a while, this could bring tension to that church. So harmony is a core essential to "church health" if you ask me.

i am I AM's!!

Willis
 
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