Choice 'A' or Choice 'A', Which will it be?

[Winman]

You are jumping around mixing apples and oranges.

No one believes in anniliationism....the dead will hear Jesus...not savingly
but they will here Him say- depart from me you who work iniquity,I never at any time knew you.

9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD

I agree with you that salvation is of the LORD.

An analogy:

I am drowning in a swimming pool;

#1 You see me drowning and have a life preserver, but fail to throw it to me. Who is responsible if I drown? YOU ARE, as you had the power to help me, but neglected to do so.

#2 You see me drowning and throw the life preserver to me. You shout for me to grab it so you can pull me in. But instead of grabbing the life preserver, I attempt to save myself. But as I cannot swim, I drown. Who is responsible for my drowning? I AM. You are not responsible because you made a real effort to help me.

#3 You see me drowning and throw a life preserver to me. I quit trying to save myself and grab hold of the preserver, you pull me to the side of the pool and help me out. Who is responsible for saving me? YOU ARE, for unless you would have thrown the preserver to me, I would have drowned.

#1 is what Calvinism teaches, and makes God responsible, as he made no effort to save man when it was within his power to do so.

#2 is scriptural, and shows man responsible for his own death if he does not take hold of the grace of God extended to him.

#3 is also scriptural and shows God ONLY receives glory when a man takes hold of the grace God extends to him, for without this grace the man would perish.

 

[Iconoclast]

I agree with you that salvation is of the LORD.

An analogy:

I am drowning in a swimming pool;

#1 You see me drowning and have a life preserver, but fail to throw it to me. Who is responsible if I drown? YOU ARE, as you had the power to help me, but neglected to do so.

#2 You see me drowning and throw the life preserver to me. You shout for me to grab it so you can pull me in. But instead of grabbing the life preserver, I attempt to save myself. But as I cannot swim, I drown. Who is responsible for my drowning? I AM. You are not responsible because you made a real effort to help me.

#3 You see me drowning and throw a life preserver to me. I quit trying to save myself and grab hold of the preserver, you pull me to the side of the pool and help me out. Who is responsible for saving me? YOU ARE, for unless you would have thrown the preserver to me, I would have drowned.

#1 is what Calvinism teaches, and makes God responsible, as he made no effort to save man when it was within his power to do so.

#2 is scriptural, and shows man responsible for his own death if he does not take hold of the grace of God extended to him.

#3 is also scriptural and shows God ONLY receives glory when a man takes hold of the grace God extends to him, for without this grace the man would perish.

You totally miss it.

analogy;

1] you are floating face down ,dead in the pool,and all the non cals on the BB throw you life preservers..... WHAT HAPPENS? nothing because you are dead.

2]you are floating face down ,dead in the pool, Webdog rejoins us on the BB,
he sees you floating dead,and plays just as i am 40 times, and asks if you would like to raise your hand and live. WHAT HAPPENS...nothing, because you are dead.

3]you are floating face down ,dead in the pool....unless God gives you life you are going to stay dead

 

[Winman]

You totally miss it.

analogy;

1] you are floating face down ,dead in the pool,and all the non cals on the BB throw you life preservers..... WHAT HAPPENS? nothing because you are dead.

2]you are floating face down ,dead in the pool, Webdog rejoins us on the BB,
he sees you floating dead,and plays just as i am 40 times, and asks if you would like to raise your hand and live. WHAT HAPPENS...nothing, because you are dead.

3]you are floating face down ,dead in the pool....unless God gives you life you are going to stay dead

We've already discussed this, being spiritually dead does not mean physically dead like a lifeless corpse. Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

Your view is not scriptural.

Why did Stephen call those Jews who rejected Christ stiffnecked? Can a lifeless corpse be stubborn or rebellious? Can a lifeless corpse resist the Holy Ghost? Can a lifeless corpse be almost persuaded? Can a lifeless corpse sin? In fact, what can a lifeless corpse do? NOTHING.

So, your view of spiritual death is unscriptural and complete error.

 

[Iconoclast]

We've already discussed this, being spiritually dead does not mean physically dead like a lifeless corpse. Jesus said the dead can hear his voice, and those that hear shall live.

Your view is not scriptural.

Why did Stephen call those Jews who rejected Christ stiffnecked? Can a lifeless corpse be stubborn or rebellious? Can a lifeless corpse resist the Holy Ghost? Can a lifeless corpse be almost persuaded? Can a lifeless corpse sin? In fact, what can a lifeless corpse do? NOTHING.

So, your view of spiritual death is unscriptural and complete error.

what you can see in physical death,demonstrates the reality of the spiritual death
spititually dead people can be religious...in luke 4 there was a demoniac in the temple... but they are completely seperated spiritually from truth

32And they were astonished at his doctrine: for his word was with power.

33And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

34Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

35And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.

36And they were all amazed, and spake among themselves, saying, What a word is this! for with authority and power he commandeth the unclean spirits, and they come out.

37And the fame of him went out into every place of the country round about.

 

[Winman]

This is why I said earlier that you cannot use logic in a debate with Calvinists, because Calvinism consists of illogical contradictions. The Calvinist believes the spiritually dead can rebel against God, he can steal, he can lie, he can utter blasphemy, he can murder... he can do all sorts of bad things.

Pretty lively for a lifeless corpse if you ask me.

But mention hearing the Word of God and believeing it, and suddenly the spiritually dead is a lifeless corpse that can do nothing.

So, one moment the spiritually dead has all sorts of ability, the next moment he has none.

Just another illogical argument that only a Calvinist can believe.

 

[jbh28]

I agree with you that salvation is of the LORD.

An analogy:

I am drowning in a swimming pool;

#1 You see me drowning and have a life preserver, but fail to throw it to me. Who is responsible if I drown? YOU ARE, as you had the power to help me, but neglected to do so.

does God have the power to save everyone? Yes.....

 

[jbh28]

This is why I said earlier that you cannot use logic in a debate with Calvinists, because Calvinism consists of illogical contradictions. The Calvinist believes the spiritually dead can rebel against God, he can steal, he can lie, he can utter blasphemy, he can murder... he can do all sorts of bad things.

Pretty lively for a lifeless corpse if you ask me.

SPIRITUALLY dead, not physically dead. Why would it be illogical for a spiritually dead person to "rebel(unspiritual), steal(unspiritual), lie (unspiritual)....

 

[Iconoclast]

This is why I said earlier that you cannot use logic in a debate with Calvinists, because Calvinism consists of illogical contradictions. The Calvinist believes the spiritually dead can rebel against God, he can steal, he can lie, he can utter blasphemy, he can murder... he can do all sorts of bad things.

Pretty lively for a lifeless corpse if you ask me.

But mention hearing the Word of God and believeing it, and suddenly the spiritually dead is a lifeless corpse that can do nothing.

So, one moment the spiritually dead has all sorts of ability, the next moment he has none.

Just another illogical argument that only a Calvinist can believe.

It seems that way to you because you do not grasp it. You cannot explain how there is no one who seeks God, no... not one.
we see it clearly, because God has allowed us too.


the demoniac was in the synagogue, no one suspected he was a demoniac...he was religious but seperated spiritually,like the pope

 

[Winman]

what you can see in physical death,demonstrates the reality of the spiritual death
spititually dead people can be religious...in luke 4 there was a demoniac in the temple... but they are completely seperated spiritually from truth

I don't think this passage supports your view, a devil is spiritually dead, yet these devils recognized who Jesus was and held a conversation with him, and then obeyed and came out of the man when Jesus commanded them.

And devils can believe.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE, and tremble.

The devils believe, but it cannot help them as Jesus died only for MEN and there is no promise to save devils who believe.

And notice also that James said these false professors DID WELL.

You are not helping yourself with this line of argument.

 

[Winman]

SPIRITUALLY dead, not physically dead. Why would it be illogical for a spiritually dead person to "rebel(unspiritual), steal(unspiritual), lie (unspiritual)....

It's not illogical to believe the spiritually dead can do wrong, but what prevents them from doing right? Don't say their nature because Paul said the Gentiles who have not the law DO BY NATURE the things contained in the law which shew the work of the law written in their hearts (Rom 2:13-15). Paul also said they have a conscience which by definition means a sense of right and wrong, and an inclination to do that which is right. Look up the word in any dictionary.

Also, James 2:19 says the devils believe and they are spiritually dead, so why can't spiritually dead men believe?

Does that make sense that the devils who rebelled against God can believe, but men can't?

Explain that.

 

[Iconoclast]

I don't think this passage supports your view, a devil is spiritually dead, yet these devils recognized who Jesus was and held a conversation with him, and then obeyed and came out of the man when Jesus commanded them.

And devils can believe.

Jam 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: THE DEVILS ALSO BELIEVE, and tremble.

The devils believe, but it cannot help them as Jesus died only for MEN and there is no promise to save devils who believe.

And notice also that James said these false professors DID WELL.

You are not helping yourself with this line of argument.

as you like to do...twist words

The devils believe, but it cannot help them as Jesus died only for MEN and there is no promise to save devils who believe.

And notice also that James said these false professors DID WELL

He is not speaking of a saving belief here!!!
So you do not understand either passage, yet you think you have answered the last post...but have not.

 

[Winman]

The devils cannot have saving faith because there is no promise of salvation made to them.

This is the problem with Limited Atonement, if you do not know for certain (and how could you?) that Jesus died for you, then how can you possibly have confidence and faith? You can't.

Oh, you can work up some false confidence you are the elect, but unless you know for absolute certain that Jesus died for you, you can never have real assurance.

Do you just decide one day you are one of the fortunate elect? Good luck with that.

But the fact is, being spiritually dead does not mean inability to believe, James 2:19 proves that.

And James did not say these men who believed there was one God had some wrong faith, he said, "thou doest well".

How could James say that of false faith?

 

[Iconoclast]

The devils cannot have saving faith because there is no promise of salvation made to them.
you are avoiding your statement the unbelievers with demons faith believe


This is the problem with Limited Atonement, if you do not know for certain (and how could you?) that Jesus died for you, then how can you possibly have confidence and faith? You can't.

There is no problem with Limited Atonement, just you do not understand it yet.I know Jesus died for me. He has enabled me to welcome the truths of Gods grace and believe savingly.

Oh, you can work up some false confidence you are the elect, but unless you know for absolute certain that Jesus died for you, you can never have real assurance.

I believe savingly, only because God has elected me before the world was.
My trust is a God given one,as I was seeking to ridicule God and the gospel, when he drew me savingly to faith and a saving belief.

but unless you know for absolute certain that Jesus died for you, you can never have real assurance.

There is a scriptural assurance available to The sheep. There are things that accompany salvation. Satan would seek to put doubt upon believers , but the Spirit keeps those that are His.

Do you just decide one day you are one of the fortunate elect? Good luck with that.


No...God decided before the world was. There is no such thing as luck....just providence


But the fact is, being spiritually dead does not mean inability to believe, James 2:19 proves that.

No...it is not a fact...you just do not understand the verse. It does not prove what you say....

And James did not say these men who believed there was one God had some wrong faith, he said, "thou doest well".

How could James say that of false faith?

Because he likens it to demons faith,which does not save..It is a figure of speech when he says thou doest well....it is not sarcasm..but something like it.......

 

[jbh28]

Also, James 2:19 says the devils believe and they are spiritually dead, so why can't spiritually dead men believe?

Does that make sense that the devils who rebelled against God can believe, but men can't?

Explain that.

The devils don't have saving faith. They don't have true faith which is James' point in the passage. That's not a good example because they don't have saving faith.

 

[Winman]

The devils don't have saving faith. They don't have true faith which is James' point in the passage. That's not a good example because they don't have saving faith.

You see how ridiculous this theology becomes? You say the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse, but only concerning good, they can do any number of evil things.

Then you admit they can have faith and believe, only it is not saving faith.

And when Iconoclast says he KNOWS he is elect, this is another illogical argument, for if Limited Atonement is true, there is no way whatsoever to know you are saved short of God coming down and telling you. You could be self deceived with this false faith that these lifeless corpses have the ability to express.

Where does the nonsense end?

 

[Aaron]

Give me a break, you cannot be FREE and a SLAVE at the same time! That is an absolute contradiction that only a Calvinist could believe. If you are enslaved by your nature and can only rebel against God, then you have no choice. And... if you are irresistably saved and cannot finally rebel against God you have no choice.

Is a goat free to be a sheep? Or is a serpent free to be a dove? Do either want to be? No, a goat is what it is, and a serpent is what it is. Is a corrupt tree free to bear good fruit?

This is the problem of non-Cals like myself debating with Calvinists. A person cannot debate a Calvinist with logic, because Calvinism consists of illogical views. A Calvinist can say a person is Free and a Slave at the same time. Others outside Calvinism cannot do this.

Only because they don't know the Scriptures. When delivered, didn't the children of Israel pine for their homes in Egypt, and the provisions of their masters? They were slaves, but if so allowed, would have freely chosen to turn back, because that was their nature. They loved their slavery.




However, to say a man is:

1. Dead in trespass and sins
2. In slavery to sin
3. Is a dog
4. Is a pig
5. Is a goat
6. Is a serpent, etc.

is to reveal a facet of his condition. He is all of these things at once, just as Christ is at the same time the tabernacle, the offerer, the priest, the offering and the altar.

O strong Ramme, which hast batter'd heaven for mee,
Mild lambe, which with thy blood, hast mark'd the path;
Bright torch, which shin'st, that I the way may see,
Oh, with thy owne blood quench thy owne just wrath—John Donne

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Off track a little bit but on another Thread Calvinists are chided for being Not Nice & sensitive...

Here is just one post by a professed Non-Calvinist"

You see how ridiculous this theology becomes


this is another illogical argument. You could be self deceived with this false faith that these lifeless corpses have the ability to express.

Where does the nonsense end?



Do not all Calvinists find these comments insulting?

Sorry for taking you away from your so called discussion......Please carry on.:wavey:

 

[jbh28]

You see how ridiculous this theology becomes? You say the spiritually dead are like a lifeless corpse, but only concerning good, they can do any number of evil things.

of course because they are spiritually dead and not physically dead.

Then you admit they can have faith and believe, only it is not saving faith.

Believing that God exists isn't saving faith. The devil believes that God exists but doesn't believe in him. big difference.

And when Iconoclast says he KNOWS he is elect, this is another illogical argument, for if Limited Atonement is true, there is no way whatsoever to know you are saved short of God coming down and telling you. You could be self deceived with this false faith that these lifeless corpses have the ability to express.

You can know if you are saved.

Where does the nonsense end?

When you stop posting maybe? but I bet you will continue like you have in the past to say things, then we will correct you, then you will say it's illogical and change what we believe.

But the simple fact is, we believe that man has a choice. He is spiritually dead so he will never choose God without the grace of God.

 

[Winman]

of course because they are spiritually dead and not physically dead.
Believing that God exists isn't saving faith. The devil believes that God exists but doesn't believe in him. big difference.
You can know if you are saved.
When you stop posting maybe? but I bet you will continue like you have in the past to say things, then we will correct you, then you will say it's illogical and change what we believe.

But the simple fact is, we believe that man has a choice. He is spiritually dead so he will never choose God without the grace of God.

A classic illogical Calvinist argument. First you argue the unregenerate is spiritually dead and CANNOT believe, then contradict yourself by saying he has a CHOICE but WILL NOT believe.

A dead corpse has no will and cannot choose anything. If you cannot choose, then you do not have choice.

But then you say this dead person has choice but WILL NOT believe.

You attempt to hold both views of man at once, which cannot possibly be true.

This is nonsensical, contradictory, and illogical, yet you hold it to be true. You cannot recognize that your view directly contradicts itself. It says everything and yet nothing, but you cannot see that.

 

[jbh28]

A classic illogical Calvinist argument. First you argue the unregenerate is spiritually dead and CANNOT believe, then contradict yourself by saying he has a CHOICE but WILL NOT believe.

A dead corpse has no will and cannot choose anything. If you cannot choose, then you do not have choice.

Your straw man again. A spiritual dead person is not a physically dead person. A Spiritually dead person still makes choices, has a will.... The only thing illogical is your straw man.

But then you say this dead person has choice but WILL NOT believe.

Yep, because he doesn't desire spiritual things. He is spiritually dead.