Choice "A", Vol 2

[jbh28]

If then man's will is not free, then he has no choice because he has no ability and therefore no option.

No, you are doing the fallacy of either or here.

You must have an option and ability to choose.

he does. Men make choices every day. We choose to eat, run, sit, walk, play ps3...

Can a corpse choose? Why not?

But in your view, if I offer a dead corpse the option of having steak or chicken for dinner he has choice. A child would know better.

No, a corpse cannot do anything at all like a spiritually dead person cannot do any SPIRITUAL. We don't say he is willing/choosing dead, but spiritually dead. He has no desire for anything spiritual.

Again, no apology for you changing my comments and altering them. Also, no response to my responses to you. How come? You just ignore them. I address all your views.

 

[Winman]

No, you are doing the fallacy of either or here.
he does. Men make choices every day. We choose to eat, run, sit, walk, play ps3...
No, a corpse cannot do anything at all like a spiritually dead person cannot do any SPIRITUAL. We don't say he is willing/choosing dead, but spiritually dead. He has no desire for anything spiritual.

Again, no apology for you changing my comments and altering them. Also, no response to my responses to you. How come? You just ignore them. I address all your views.

There is no need to apologize, because you are arguing a contradiction. You are really saying nothing. You say an unregenerate man has choice, but then admit he is like a corpse concerning spiritual matters. Then you say he makes choices everyday. We are not discussing what color shirt he decides to wear here, that is irrelevant. You admit he is like a corpse concerning spiritual matters, and a corpse cannot have choice.

 

[jbh28]

There is no need to apologize, because you are arguing a contradiction. You are really saying nothing.

There is a need to apologize when you misword my statements and then argue against your made up version. I even quoted you your statement and then mine and proved that you didn't represent my statements correctly. I make no contradiction. The only contradiction is between what I write and what you say I write.

You say an unregenerate man has choice, but then admit he is like a corpse concerning spiritual matters.

He has a choice in many areas of life. He isn't physically dead. He is spiritually dead. In other words, he has 0 desire for anything spiritual.

Then you say he makes choices everyday. We are not discussing what color shirt he decides to wear here, that is irrelevant. You admit he is like a corpse concerning spiritual matters, and a corpse cannot have choice.

a spiritual corpse cannot choose that which is spiritual. He has no desire to. He can and will choose that which is not spiritual.

an it's not irrelevant. I was demonstrating that he can make choices.

do you understand what an analogy is? It's another situation that is like the situation we are talking about, but only in certain areas. So in this case, like a dead person cannot do anything physical, a spiritually dead person cannot do anything spiritual. This does NOT mean that he cannot do anything at all. It does not mean he cannot make choices. It DOES mean that he cannot do anything spiritual. He is a slave to his sinful nature. He will always choose against God. He will never want to seek after God. (Romans 3:11). Nobody reject the gospel against their will. Nobody stays unsaved against their will.

 

[Winman]

There is a need to apologize when you misword my statements and then argue against your made up version. I even quoted you your statement and then mine and proved that you didn't represent my statements correctly. I make no contradiction. The only contradiction is between what I write and what you say I write.
He has a choice in many areas of life. He isn't physically dead. He is spiritually dead. In other words, he has 0 desire for anything spiritual.

a spiritual corpse cannot choose that which is spiritual. He has no desire to. He can and will choose that which is not spiritual.

an it's not irrelevant. I was demonstrating that he can make choices.

do you understand what an analogy is? It's another situation that is like the situation we are talking about, but only in certain areas. So in this case, like a dead person cannot do anything physical, a spiritually dead person cannot do anything spiritual. This does NOT mean that he cannot do anything at all. It does not mean he cannot make choices. It DOES mean that he cannot do anything spiritual. He is a slave to his sinful nature. He will always choose against God. He will never want to seek after God. (Romans 3:11). Nobody reject the gospel against their will. Nobody stays unsaved against their will.

Hey, calling the unregenerate a corpse is what you Calvinists have chosen, don't blame me for that. I have seen many at BB use this analogy, and have seen it used by Calvinists at numerous Reformed websites many times.

A corpse cannot choose to be dead, a corpse cannot choose anything at all. You cannot offer a corpse a choice, as they are unaware of it.

 

[jbh28]

Hey, calling the unregenerate a corpse is what you Calvinists have chosen, don't blame me for that. I have seen many at BB use this analogy, and have seen it used by Calvinists at numerous Reformed websites many times.

A corpse cannot choose to be dead, a corpse cannot choose anything at all. You cannot offer a corpse a choice, as they are unaware of it.

HE IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD! He cannot do SPIRITUAL things. You are just doing this in purpose now. You are much smarter than this. You are saying he is physically dead, which I have never stated. A spiritually dead person can choose to do non-spiritual things.

 

[convicted1]

Right and unregenerate man cannot choose to come to Christ. But unregenerate man can choose to reject Christ. The difference with the physical example(like the burning building) is that when one is unconscious, he cannot make any choices at all. He has no "will" at that point. An unregenerate person has a will. He can make choices. But he will never make the choice to come to Christ. He has no desire to.

Brother, if one is in an "unregenerate" state, he can make a choice, too. A person is in an unregenerated state until he is born again, and made alive in Christ Jesus, the Lord. One is not "regenerated" and then saved later on down the road. One is regenerated/saved or saved/regenerated. They are two different words, meaning the same thing.

G3824 paliggenesia Greek word for "regeneration":

Thayer's definition:
1) new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration

a) hence renovation, regeneration, the production of a new life consecrated to God, a radical change of mind for the better. The word often used to denote the restoration of a thing to its pristine state, its renovation, as a renewal or restoration of life after death

b) the renovation of the earth after the deluge

c) the renewal of the world to take place after its destruction by fire, as the Stoics taught

d) the signal and glorious change of all things (in heaven and earth) for the better, that restoration of the primal and perfect condition of things which existed before the fall of our first parents, which the Jews looked for in connection with the advent of the Messiah, and which Christians expected in connection with the visible return of Jesus from heaven.

e) other uses

1) of Cicero's restoration to rank and fortune on his recall from exile

2) of the restoration of the Jewish nation after exile

3) of the recovery of knowledge by recollection


G4992 sōtērios Greek word used for "salvation":

Thayer's definition:
1) saving, bringing salvation

2) he who embodies this salvation, or through whom God is about to achieve it

3) the hope of (future) salvation



G4991 sōtēria Another Greek word used for "salvation":

Thayer's definition:
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation

a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies

b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation

1) of Messianic salvation

2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians

3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

So, in essence, one isn't "regenerated", and later saved. One can not be brought back to life, and not have life. One is regenerated because they live again, and one lives again because they are saved/have salvation.

i am I AM's!!

Willis


IOW, Salvation doesn't come in "lumps", or steps. You get saved/regenerated by the blood of Jesus Christ.

 

[convicted1]

HE IS SPIRITUALLY DEAD! He cannot do SPIRITUAL things. You are just doing this in purpose now. You are much smarter than this. You are saying he is physically dead, which I have never stated. A spiritually dead person can choose to do non-spiritual things.

If one is spiritually dead the same way a corpse is dead, then that person is completely dead, Brother. Natural death is a seperation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is a soul seperated from God via sin.

If our soul is dead the exact same way a corpse is dead, then the whole body is dead. What controls our breathing, heart beat, blood pressure, lungs inflating/deflating, etc? It is our soul. If our soul is dead in the way the Calvinist models says it is, then the whole body would be dead, and ready to be planted in the ground.

Do not take this as me hunting you down, Brother. You have always been fair with me, and I pray that I have with you, as well. But a "dead" person can choose to believe.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

 

[jbh28]

If one is spiritually dead the same way a corpse is dead, then that person is completely dead, Brother. Natural death is a seperation of the soul from the body. Spiritual death is a soul seperated from God via sin.

If our soul is dead the exact same way a corpse is dead, then the whole body is dead. What controls our breathing, heart beat, blood pressure, lungs inflating/deflating, etc? It is our soul. If our soul is dead in the way the Calvinist models says it is, then the whole body would be dead, and ready to be planted in the ground.

Do not take this as me hunting you down, Brother. You have always been fair with me, and I pray that I have with you, as well. But a "dead" person can choose to believe.

i am I AM's!!

Willis

Obviously, we do not mean that our soul is dead in that sense. You say that a natural death is separation from life and spiritual from God. True. a naturally dead person cannot come to life(that which it is separated from) on its own like a spiritually dead person cannot come to God(whom we are separated from) on our own.

But a "dead" person can choose to believe.

I usually say that regeneration and faith happen at the exact same moment.

 

[jbh28]

So, in essence, one isn't "regenerated", and later saved. One can not be brought back to life, and not have life. One is regenerated because they live again, and one lives again because they are saved/have salvation.

yes. That's why I don't believe that a person is regenerated but lost. a regenerated person is a person that is saved. A saved person is one that believes. I know that some teach that a person is regenerated and then later believes, but the Bible doesn't teach that.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

yes. That's why I don't believe that a person is regenerated but lost. a regenerated person is a person that is saved. A saved person is one that believes. I know that some teach that a person is regenerated and then later believes, but the Bible doesn't teach that.

Sentiments your own & not specifically shared by all Calvinists.

 

[Jim1999]

Again it is a question of discerning the Divine order and the human order. They do not always coincide. The Divine is not restricted by human time.

Hence a corpse is resurrected, believes and is saved....all by God.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[jbh28]

Sentiments your own & not specifically shared by all Calvinists.

That's true. Not all Calvinists are right :tongue3:

as jim said "all by God" I agree. Faith is a gift of God, so all salvation comes from God. From our perspective, we don't get saved will we believe. I can't tell people to go get regenerated, but I can tell people to believe. It's just that in all my reading of the Bible, I never see a person that is regenerated, but not yet saved. When a person receives new life, they have the spirit, they believe, they repent, they are justified.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's true. Not all Calvinists are right :tongue3:

as jim said "all by God" I agree. Faith is a gift of God, so all salvation comes from God. From our perspective, we don't get saved will we believe. I can't tell people to go get regenerated, but I can tell people to believe. It's just that in all my reading of the Bible, I never see a person that is regenerated, but not yet saved. When a person receives new life, they have the spirit, they believe, they repent, they are justified.

Yea but their all equally Not Nice.....or thats the perception anyway :tongue3:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Again it is a question of discerning the Divine order and the human order. They do not always coincide. The Divine is not restricted by human time.

Hence a corpse is resurrected, believes and is saved....all by God.

Cheers,

Jim

Come on Brother Jim :love2:..... go tell that to "Certain People" who want it to all fall to logic (errr...Mans logic) :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

That's true. Not all Calvinists are right :tongue3:

as jim said "all by God" I agree. Faith is a gift of God, so all salvation comes from God. From our perspective, we don't get saved will we believe. I can't tell people to go get regenerated, but I can tell people to believe. It's just that in all my reading of the Bible, I never see a person that is regenerated, but not yet saved. When a person receives new life, they have the spirit, they believe, they repent, they are justified.

The reason you cant tell anyone to go get regenerated is because thats the act of the HS....not you & not them.

 

[jbh28]

The reason you cant tell anyone to go get regenerated is because thats the act of the HS....not you & not them.

Yes, that was my point.

 

[Winman]

Again it is a question of discerning the Divine order and the human order. They do not always coincide. The Divine is not restricted by human time.

Hence a corpse is resurrected, believes and is saved....all by God.

Cheers,

Jim

Oh, I see, even though numerous verses all say you must believe to have life (regeneration), and ZERO verses say you must have life to believe, you have spiritual discernment that tells you the opposite.

Jn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believeing, ye might have life through his name.

All a man needs to believe is the word of God, faith comes by hearing the word of God (Rom 10:17). You must first believe that ye might have life.

Abraham also shows this when he spoke to the rich man who died and went to hell.

Luk 16:27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: 28 For I have five brethren: that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. 29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. 30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. 31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

The rich man wanted the supernatural, he felt if Lazarus rose from the dead his five brothers would be persuaded (believe). Abraham says no, they have the scriptures, this is sufficient to believe. If they will not believe God's word, they will not believe the supernatural.

So, I will believe the scriptures that repeatedly say you must believe to have life, you can believe your supernatural discernment.

 

[humblethinker]

In all of this debate, it seems that the lack of debate in at least one other point that this video dialogue presented is telling. Are we in agreement regarding calvinism's teaching regarding God's choosing "something else" for "these others"?

When it comes to believing, or choosing to believe, then the arguement is strong from these calvinists that God is the one choosing and that man has nothing to do with it, even to the point that he is an inanimate object (dead corpse). It seems that they would argue as strongly that God chose NOT to regenerate "these others".

Person: “What about these others?”
C God: “I chose something different.”
Person: “Are they happy with THEIR choice?”
C God: “No.”