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Revelation: You are here...
- Thread starter Nazaroo
- Start date
Tom Bryant
Well-Known Member
Wow! Thanks for letting us all know... If you had been around for the last 2,000 years just think of all the arguments that would have been prevented. No more theological discussion about the 2nd coming, we've been told!
:tonofbricks: :smilewinkgrin:
Can you settle anymore arguments? sorry, just a monday morning sarcastic preacher's response. :saint:
:tonofbricks: :smilewinkgrin:
Can you settle anymore arguments? sorry, just a monday morning sarcastic preacher's response. :saint:
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I agree, if I have interpreted the diagrams correctly, with the second one displaying the amilennial position. (However, I must say that I have never heard of an amilennialist who says that the milennium was the thousand years from 450AD to [or "through", as I think Americans say 
] 1450).
But I definitely do not agree with the pejorative word "Dummies" to address Christians of a different eschatalogical persuasion. My dictionary says:
] 1450).But I definitely do not agree with the pejorative word "Dummies" to address Christians of a different eschatalogical persuasion. My dictionary says:
Dummy: offensive term: an offensive term that deliberately insults somebody's intelligence or credulity (informal insult)
Doesn't Rule 3 of the Baptist Board say that we are to show grace to the other posters?
Hey,don't you know that the Naz has expertise in a number of fields? He calls people living and deceased "dummy" and similar words quite often.
Here's what he said about himself on Wickipedia:
"Nazarro :a legendary hero whose sworned [sic] dedication to exposing the truth about textual criticism of the scriptures is well known among the 20th and 21st century Christians of the English speaking West."
Did they have one of those enlightening specials on PBS channel last night? A case can be made for the amillennium stance, but only by those that refuse to believe scripture.
Tom Butler
New Member
Hey, let's not be too hard on Nazaroo. He's not really putting anybody down. The "Revelation for Dummies" thing is a takeoff on a series of books designed to simplify different things.
I have in my library a "Windows for Dummies" book from several years ago. Actually, it was quite valuable.
I Googled "..for Dummies" and here are some of the titles:
Podcasts for Dummies
Laptops for Dummies
Investing for Dummies.
And a bunch more.
So Nazaroo is not really putting anybody down. He's just using an imaginative way of making his point.
I have in my library a "Windows for Dummies" book from several years ago. Actually, it was quite valuable.
I Googled "..for Dummies" and here are some of the titles:
Podcasts for Dummies
Laptops for Dummies
Investing for Dummies.
And a bunch more.
So Nazaroo is not really putting anybody down. He's just using an imaginative way of making his point.
Nazaroo,
If your chart is actually true, the way that you can verify it for me is to point to some reputable historical references where you can show me that these events took place:
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
If your chart is actually true, the way that you can verify it for me is to point to some reputable historical references where you can show me that these events took place:
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
The first thing we will do is use well-known public historical facts, which are for the most part agreed upon by most historians, including skeptics:
This next diagram shows the more important events in the first 200 years of the Christian era.
Most people date the Book of Revelation as having been composed in the reign of Emperor Nero (because of its apparent ignorance of the destruction of the temple), or in the reign of Emperor Domitian (because the book seems to know too much of the subsequent Roman/Jewish Wars.
Only a handful of conspiracy theorists (such as "MountainMan" in Australia from Internet Infidels) think that the book was composed after that (e.g. in the reign of Constantine, c. 300-340 A.D.), because there are no complete copies of the book older than Codex Alexandrinus (c. late 4th cent./early 5th), and Codex Sinaiticus (dubiously dated at about 350 A.D., but probably 50 years newer, i.e., 390-420 A.D.).
Thanks for your response: Here's mine:
I think that if we look at various stages in previous history, we can see that in times when not much was happening, and people had little knowledge, that the book of Revelation remained largely closed. It was in the same situation as the book of Daniel, where even Daniel was told, "Go your way, Daniel, for the [message] is sealed until the time of the end..." etc.
It is no real surprise therefore, that interpreters, even Godly and studied men in the 19th century could not open the seals of the book. They could not foresee such events as the Great Apostacy of Western Protestantism (although a few saw some signs), or the two Great World Wars, or the Atom Bomb.
The things shortly coming to pass would have sounded like fantasy or witchcraft to Rationalists and anti-supernatural materialists of the 1800s. Think of not only the Atom Bomb, but radio, manned flight, the steam engine, electronics, moving pictures, color photographs and audio recordings.
Anyone prophesying these things would have seemed a raving lunatic. Never mind the advent of such "thinkers" as Aleister Crowley, Gurdieff, Adolf Hitler, etc.
If I understand you correctly, then I don't believe you have read the whole Bible, or you believe in error.
Daniel was told to go his way, then much later it was opened again, revealing into eternity. It tells us what is happening today, in these last days. But That Day is not here. Ancient writtings informs us of the increasing knowledge of our day, and of trains, cars, planes, and travel into space.
But what are the most important things you are missing. The Great Tribulation cannot come while there are any members of the Body of Christ on the earth, in it, or the waters. How many of us will still be here alive? There are still things hidden in God. But John complements Daniel by informing of the 144,0o00 composed of 12,000 from each Tribe. Then the Great Commission will THEN be preached to the whole world by those of Israel, and no Gentile is included. Both of Books are in Prophecy.
But not so Noah before the flood, and neither can the Body of Christ be found in Prophecy. So we could in surmising say if there were only 8 souls saved from the Tribulation that covered the whole earth, then there could be only eight souls to be carried above the whole earth during the tribulation. Then that millennium will come, after the Tribulation, for at that time Jesus will then again touch down on this earth.
These things become clear NOW, that we are in the Last Days before The Great Tribulation, and only then can the begin, of the beginning of the Millennium, begin.
Well, lets not get ahead of ourselves.
Since I haven't expounded my position fully or in detail,
you're jumping the gun to pronounce me in 'error'.
The last diagram was pretty straightforward,
and only meant to put the time and place of the book in context.
For out purposes, it doesn't actually matter whether the book was written in Nero's time, or written or modified in Domitian's time (i.e. during the Roman/Jewish Wars). Even if the book were a forgery, written in the 4th century, or re-edited then, it is still all the same for us:
The book purports to be written at a certain time, and claims to be a prophetic book. That is, it wishes to be taken as a prophecy about events coming upon the earth. The author identifies himself specifically as "a seer", an O.T. label for prophet.
When we turn to the contents of the book, we can say that yes, there were some bursts of serious persecution during the times of Nero, Domitian, and even later (c. 300 A.D.). But all students of the Gospels are aware for instance that the burning of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Temple are only a partial fulfillment of these things, even if we only consider passages like the Markan Apocalypse (Mark 13:5-37 etc.).
In other words, we are in basic agreement I think on two points:
(1) Revelation was meant to be taken as a prophecy about future earthly events when it was written, and
(2) Its contents were not fully fulfilled in the 1st century or even by the 4th century A.D., leaving some of its prophecies still pointing to future events.
This is the basis upon which I would like to begin looking at it.
Just to let you know, I am well aware of what most historians say.
OK, you are simply stating opinion without fact here. Most historians agree that Revelation was written ca. 96-98 A.D., which was close to the time of John's death. They agree that there is no reason to doubt the Johannine authorship as John himself claims to be the author, an could not have lived to be 300 + years as you seem to claim.
And what does this information have to do with my question to you? You have completely avoided my question. Why don't you try again.
Show me from history where this event (these events) have taken place:
The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. (Isaiah 11:6-9)
This time don't avoid the question!
Where in history has the wolf dwelt with the lamb?
And the leopard lie down with the kid (baby goat)?
And the young lion is with the calf together?
And added to all of this, a child will lead them all?
Is the earth now full of the knowledge of the Lord? Was it ever?
Where is that in history?
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Dear Nazaroo, keep in mind that most people on this list don't understand any literary form except noun-verb-adverb or noun-verb-noun. Does this include you?
In other words, do you analyze the verbal picture of sheep voluntarily bedding down with large jungle cats the same way you analyze the verbal picture of trees in fields growing little hands and clapping?
In other words, do you analyze the verbal picture of sheep voluntarily bedding down with large jungle cats the same way you analyze the verbal picture of trees in fields growing little hands and clapping?
I don't really think there is a problem here.
I don't think the period that this verse speaks of has come to pass at all.
So I think we are on the same page there, I hope.
This seems self-evident, so why would you assume I disagreed,
and why would I even have to give an opinion on such a self-evident fact?
Your language appears extreme, over the top, and bordering on rude (see highlighting/bold/underline above).
What is the reason for the anger?
I really do think this is unnecessary.
To recap: the period where the lion and lambs hang out together has not arrived.
Perhaps where we differ is that somehow you associate this with the 1,000 year reign.
Can you show me why you think these two time periods are one and the same?
Maybe toning it down a bit, and searching out and addressing the points of difference you seem to imagine would be more helpful.
sincerely,
Nazazroo
Revelation for Dummies (2)
The Roman/Jewish Wars (68 - 135 A.D.) were a rapid and colossal disaster for the Jewish people, because the full might of the Roman Empire was brought to bear upon them.
In 69 A.D. the Galilean Rebellion was squashed;
In 70 A.D. Jerusalem was burned, and the Temple destroyed, and possibly millions of Jews were killed or enslaved.
In 73 A.D. the Zealots at Masada were sieged and destroyed.
The final rebellion of Bar Kochba (120-132 A.D.) was also quashed.
But Christianity, although frequently persecuted, continued to spread throughout the Roman Empire, even heavily infecting the Roman Armies.
Here is the next diagram in the analysis:
The single most important event in the first 500 years of Christianity has to be the conversion of the Emperor Constantine, and the legalization of the Christian Religion. Around 300 A.D., Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity, which was formerly and underground and illegal religion, often persecuted by Roman authorities.
For our purposes, it matters little whether or not Constantine was truly or completely converted, or if instead he was simply a shrewd leader, realizing that by 300 A.D. a large number of Roman soldiers and citizens were Christian converts.
The fact is, Constantine legalized Christianity, and to prove the point, began to tear down and loot pagan temples, and use the wealth to build Christian cathedrals all over the Empire. Constantine also held Ecumenical councils, allowing Christian leaders (at least those willing to cooperate with the Empire) some participation and power in organizing and defining mainstream Christianity.
The second thing Constantine did was to abandon Rome entirely, and rebuild his new Capital and Headquarters in Greece, at Byzantium (Constantinople, now called Istanbul). The Empire was now ruled from the East (Greece), and the Latin West was left abandoned, and quickly succumbed to local barbarian invasions, beginning around 420 A.D.
The West sank into the Dark Ages, while the East flourished, enjoying one of the greatest eras of Christian literary and intellectual activity.
The Latins, perhaps in ironic poetic justice for their most recent and violent persecution of the Christians, fell to the barbarians again and again, their economy, security and lives destroyed by sacking and pillaging.
If the book of Revelation had failed to at all mention what was the most important development in Christian history, while at the same time being a prophecy focussed on the Christian future, it would have to be called a prophetic failure.
To get an idea of how drastic the changeover was, take a look at these BEFORE and AFTER maps:
BEFORE: ROMAN EMPIRE c. 200 A.D.
AFTER: Animated GIF! Click to Enlarge
Nazaroo
The Roman/Jewish Wars (68 - 135 A.D.) were a rapid and colossal disaster for the Jewish people, because the full might of the Roman Empire was brought to bear upon them.
In 69 A.D. the Galilean Rebellion was squashed;
In 70 A.D. Jerusalem was burned, and the Temple destroyed, and possibly millions of Jews were killed or enslaved.
In 73 A.D. the Zealots at Masada were sieged and destroyed.
The final rebellion of Bar Kochba (120-132 A.D.) was also quashed.
But Christianity, although frequently persecuted, continued to spread throughout the Roman Empire, even heavily infecting the Roman Armies.
Here is the next diagram in the analysis:
The single most important event in the first 500 years of Christianity has to be the conversion of the Emperor Constantine, and the legalization of the Christian Religion. Around 300 A.D., Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity, which was formerly and underground and illegal religion, often persecuted by Roman authorities.
For our purposes, it matters little whether or not Constantine was truly or completely converted, or if instead he was simply a shrewd leader, realizing that by 300 A.D. a large number of Roman soldiers and citizens were Christian converts.
The fact is, Constantine legalized Christianity, and to prove the point, began to tear down and loot pagan temples, and use the wealth to build Christian cathedrals all over the Empire. Constantine also held Ecumenical councils, allowing Christian leaders (at least those willing to cooperate with the Empire) some participation and power in organizing and defining mainstream Christianity.
The second thing Constantine did was to abandon Rome entirely, and rebuild his new Capital and Headquarters in Greece, at Byzantium (Constantinople, now called Istanbul). The Empire was now ruled from the East (Greece), and the Latin West was left abandoned, and quickly succumbed to local barbarian invasions, beginning around 420 A.D.
The West sank into the Dark Ages, while the East flourished, enjoying one of the greatest eras of Christian literary and intellectual activity.
The Latins, perhaps in ironic poetic justice for their most recent and violent persecution of the Christians, fell to the barbarians again and again, their economy, security and lives destroyed by sacking and pillaging.
If the book of Revelation had failed to at all mention what was the most important development in Christian history, while at the same time being a prophecy focussed on the Christian future, it would have to be called a prophetic failure.
To get an idea of how drastic the changeover was, take a look at these BEFORE and AFTER maps:
BEFORE: ROMAN EMPIRE c. 200 A.D. 
AFTER: Animated GIF! Click to Enlarge Nazaroo
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These events take place on earth; hence the Millennial Kingdom. You will have to do better than that to show that the Millennial Kingdom was from 450 to 1450 A.D., one of the darkest periods in history. The Millennial Kingdom is where Christ sits on his throne ruling with a rod of iron. There was no throne on the earth during this period, for Christ to sit on. There was no rule of Christ. There was no peace. It was a time of war and chaos.
It was a bloody time of the Spanish Inquisition, of the persecution of believers by the Catholic Church, of thousands murdered by the RCC. This was no time of peace. It was horrible.
Basically you are labeling what is termed by others "The Dark Ages", the darkest time in human history, as the Millennial Kingdom. What a travesty! What a dismal outlook on history.
You are confusing the Eastern Greek Empire (The Christian Enlightenment) with the Western Latin (Roman) Empire (Dark Ages).
Everything you mention as the Dark Ages happened in Western, LATIN Europe. Eastern Europe was the center of true Christianity until it was overrun by the Turks, c. 1453.
Then the Greeks fled West into Latin Europe, bringing with them Greek scholarship and Greek manuscripts, and setting the stage for the Reformation, which brought the West out of the Dark Ages, by many long and violent stages.
Thank the Romans for the Dark Ages; the Greeks were busy being literate and brilliant engineers.
Try looking at the MAPS I posted. That should clarify things for you.
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Please show scripture references if you are arguing for certain key features during the Millenium, or 1000-year reign.
Each historical period has features outlined by Holy Scripture.
You can make any claim you want, but if you want to convince anyone you should back it up with scripture.
peace
Nazaroo
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
The above quote leads me to ask you, Nazaroo, what you believe "true Christianity" is.