Revelation: You are here...

A fair question deserves a fair answer, even if it is off-topic.
I won't derail the thread topic, but I will give a brief answer.

True Christianity can be helpfully outlined by what it isn't, as much as what it is.

It won't be found in any narrow cult, sect, or even denomination, no matter how well intended and guided.

It can't be founded on the sand of authoritarianism, whether by popes, bishops, or even pastors, but must be broadly based on the rock of inspired honesty, guided by conscience. It can't be imposed, and must be received.

It was found in the best impulses and frankness of the Reformation, not necessarily in doctrine, but in practice. It will always be found more often and more reliably among unsophisticated fishermen, carpenters, scribes and students, and even ex-tax collectors and ex-prostitutes, than it ever will be among the wealthy, well educated and self-righteous, rulers, priests and lawyers.

True Christianity, when thirsty will always return to the source of all its inspiration and accomplishments, namely the delivered and received, revealed and acknowledged Holy Scriptures of the Living God.

True Christianity can never be found in its purest form on earth, any more than true justice could be had before the completion of Judgement Day, but it will always and ever struggle toward holiness, as defined by God, and not as judged by man from superficial appearances.

True Christianity is an invisible and mysterious Body, with however a full and physical presence in the world and is an effective force for good and the relief of suffering, as long as there is light to work.

True Christianity will be found behind every charitable act of kindness and mercy, bearing fruit of repentence and life-giving change in human lives.

But if you can't always see its fruits, or find it in your fellow man, remember even Elijah felt the same at times.

In my view, without neglecting good Christians and sincere, kind and loving people of all denominations, I believe that the Protestant Reformers of every stripe had more light in their lamps and were more useful to God than a whole infrastructure of worldly priests, monks, and cardinals, who had buried themselves in earthly wealth and grown cold.

The case with the Latin versus the Greek church at certain times was similar to the case between Roman Catholics and Protestants in Reformation times, and between the fallen German skeptics of the 19th century and the British historical-critical advocates.

Some parts of the universal church, some denominations, some countries and nations, some social groups and classes had fallen into deeper decay than others, and their betters had more faith, gospel truth, and positive fruits.

 

Here's something else to ponder:

[another poster's] interpretation of this verse implies that these people who were beheaded for Christ, were physically resurrected,
(i.e., had their heads put back on, and then reigned with Christ physically upon the earth, for a thousand years.

But the verse does not require that. In fact, it suggests a significantly different scenario:

(1) They were given thrones, which appear to be in heaven, not on the earth and they sat upon them.
They are in the presence of the Lamb in heaven on several occasions, and plead with Him for revenge,
as well as cast their crowns before him, from a location that seems to be quite clearly in heaven,
where they wait, apparently already crowned, if not enthroned.

(2) The natural interpretation seems to suggest these people reigned with Christ, from heaven.
During the "1000 year reign", these people reign alongside Christ.
But nowhere does it state that they do this from earth (God's footstool).
Rather, Jesus is seated at the right hand of the Father in heaven when He first ascends,
and rules from there, for most time periods.

If these 'early resurrected martyrs' rule beside Christ, a reasonable assumption,
they do so in heaven, where Jesus had previously prepared a place for them.

Nothing in the quotation requires they rule with Christ from an earthly location, only that they rule over the earth.

One of the first things the disciples ask in the Gospel of John is why Jesus appears to them, but not to the world.
If these martyrs are with Jesus, then they will also be hidden, and will not appear to the unworthy world.

Therefore, it is not particularly surprising, and indeed quite consistent that their resurrection is a private matter,
meant only for worthy eyes, i.e., those other saints and martyrs, accounted holy and found in heaven.

 

No apologies needed.
I hope my answer was found to be as sincere as your question.

peace
Nazaroo

 

I still find this question open.
What scripture have you got for your point?

The Kingdom of God/Heaven has already invaded the earth,
as the Gospel of Jesus says.
But Jesus rules this INVISIBLE kingdom from HEAVEN.
This Kingdom is made without hands, and is in our midst,
but invisible, as Jesus says. It remains so today.
This Kingdom is the same kingdom as always,
which ever-expands along with the preaching of the Gospel.
Jesus is never visible.
In fact, this point comes up in John's Gospel,
where the Apostles ask why Jesus hides Himself from the World.

If the kingdom is already on earth in Jesus' time,
ever expands, and is continuous and not distinct from
the same kingdom when it has taken over the whole earth,
why does Jesus need to come down in person at any time,
for a visible appearance, in a special 1000 year segment?

The text is ambiguous. It says they will rule WITH Christ,
but it doesn't say where from, or specify that people will
be able to gaze upon Jesus physically during a 1000 year reign.

To me the text doesn't specify your claim.
If it did, it should be demonstrable.

What scripture have you got for this point?

Jesus, even when He returns, it seems will stay in the air (we are caught up to Him, not vice versa).

The only Jerusalem Jesus will be in, will be the New Heavenly Jerusalem. If it descends at the end of the age, this seems to be out of sync with a thousand year reign.

We both agree that this happens at the end.
The issue of when the 1000 year reign occurs is still open.

 

Revelation for Dummies (3)


Last month we posted the following diagram, expanding a section of the last 2,000 years (ongoing):


Today I want to expand a little on a critical section here, before moving onto the next historical period, namely the Latin Golden Age:



Here we can see the underground Christian movement expanding rapidly across the Roman Empire, first in the common Greek language, then early in the 2nd century being translated into Latin. The early Latin writers were articulate, strong and daring, and as a result, many of the Romans, particularly, the lower and middle classes, servants, slaves, soldiers and artisans were converted to the new faith. Christians became so numerous that Emperor Constantine wisely legalized Christianity and effectively ended persecutions against Christians.

During this early time there were many prolific and intelligent Christian apologists. By about 320 A.D. it is estimated that there were about 1,200 Christian bishops spread across the Empire. We may assume there were at least as many copies of the New Testament writings in various forms and languages by the mid 4th century.

All Latin copies of the NT in use between 200 and 400 A.D. would however be variations of the Old Latin version, early independent translations made by Christians for use by the Romans and other Latin-speaking peoples within the Empire. The Latin Vulgate NT of Jerome (c. 392 A.D.) had not been made yet nor adopted by the West. This only happened at the very end of the Western Literary Golden Age (200-420 A.D.).

Yet the Latin Golden Age quickly came to an end, as Emperor Constantine moved his central capital and economic base to Constantinople in the East, effectively abandoning Rome and the West. This led to a long period of continual anarchy and warfare in the West, with Rome itself being sacked by barbarians several times.
The original Roman Empire and Rome was essentially looted and gutted, leaving only a crippled husk of the original Empire. This was prophetic, poetic, and effective justice for Rome's long legacy of violence and persecution, especially of Christian martyrs.

(to be continued...)
Nazaroo

 

That would be Luke-Acts and Paul's letters.

 

​

As shown in the diagram above, the moving of the Capital of the Empire to the Greek East had a devastating impact on the Latin West, effectively abandoning the whole West to repeated invasions, pillaging, looting, and a complete economic disruption. This left the West in a shambles, with death by warfare, anarchy, vandalism, starvation, and plague running rampant everywhere.

To quote the historian C.P.S. Clarke,
"Alaric and his Goths sacked Rome in 410. In the 5th century Visigoths settled in southern Gaul and Spain; Franks in northern Gaul and the Rhine; Burgundians and OstroGoths east of the Rhine and on the Danube; OstroGoths and then Lombards in North Italy, and Jutes and Saxons in Briain. Attila with a host of Huns invated Italy in 451. The [Western] Empire did not fall in a moment. Its policy was to recognise the conquerors and, as far as possible, absorb their rulers into itself as subordinate kings. ...There was in fact a good eal of 'gradualness' about the breakup of the empire. But in 476 the last Western Emperor, Augustulus, was forced to abdicate and the West was left without any emperor, except for the distant potentate in Constantinople, and kingdoms, independent in name as well as fact, were set up.
The Effect of the Invasions: - The effect has been variously estimated. AN earlier generation of scholars was inclined to lay stress on the masculine vigour of the barbarian as a fair compensation for the loss of civilization and culture. - The latest writer to deal with the subject, Boissonarde, can see nothing but evil in the invasions, and thus sums up their results:

"The idleness, stupidity, coarseness, ignorance, credulity and cruelty of the barbarians took the place of the well-regulated activity, polish, culture, relative humanity of the Romans. Far from regenerating the world, they nearly wiped out civilization altogether. Far from assisting its economic development, they ruined all activity by committing everywhere pillage, disorder, destruction. They created nothing, but they destroyed much and they put a stop to all progress for several centuries. The barbarian settlements produced one of the greatest retrogressions which the world has ever seen."
​

This view is borne out by Gregory, Bishop of Tours (c. 573-594) whose History of the Franks is the principal source of our knowledge of the barbarians.
The breakdown of order and constant invasions of predatory bands produced an almost chronic state of famine. After a raid over Bourges we read: "There remained not a house, not a vineyard, not a tree; all was cut down and ruined. They even carried off the sacred vessels from the churches and burned the churches themselves with fire". Again, "Many a region did he lay waste again and again." In 536 A.D. ,50,000 peasants are said to have died of famine in a single province of Italy. Gregory alludes to famines as of common occurence. OF the year 580 he wrote: "IN this year almost all Gaul was oppressed by famine. Multitudes were reduced to making a kind of bread by drying and pounding grapeseeds or hazelblossom, and adding a little flour, while others did the same with fern-roots." Famine and the destruction of baths and sanitation were naturally followed by disease and plague. Boissonarde reports that in Britain in the 7th century, half the population perished during one visitation. Gregory writes as if dysentery and bubonic plague were endemic. In Auvergne, in 571, one sunday 300 people died in a single church. In Rome, Gregory saw 80 people dying in the street during a single Rogation procession. "

(Clarke, Short History of the Christian Church 1948),p. 104-106​

The West was quickly lost to barbarian hordes and gangs, and the Roman Empire was obliterated in just about every province. A few maps illustrate the extent of the devastation.

 

Revelation for Dummies (5) - Western Collapse, Eastern Expansion


We said last post (Revelation for Dummies 4) that a few maps would illustrate the point, the point being the fall into the Dark Ages for the Latin West, and the simultaneous flowering of the Eastern Greek Empire: here are some illustrative maps (Click on maps to enlarge):

The Empire was officially split into East and West with separate rulers back in 385 A.D., with the death of the last full Emperor, Theodosius.
From there things quickly got worse for the West, as individual nations rebelled and set up their own independent kingdoms, outside of Western or Eastern control. These political border changes were not peaceful, but were accompanied by wars, sacking and looting, rape, murder, and slaughter of various Western populations.

​

By about 530 A.D., the Western half of the Roman Empire was essentially nonexistant:

​

Parts of the West were recovered by Emperor Justinian the 1st, Italy and the Western part of North-Africa (Carthage, Morocco) and even the Southern tip of Spain, as well as the Alars in the North-East. Most of this happened between 533 and 536 A.D., but material gains were eroded again after Justinian's death.

​

The first Major Bubonic Plague struck in 541-544 A.D., however, various smaller plagues had been running amok in the West for many years already as a result of war and famine.


The maps illustrate clearly the relative poverty and collapse of the West, while the East continued to flourish, at least in the center of the Byzantine Empire.


In the next century saw rapid expansion of the Islamic Caliphates, with the losses by the Eastern Byzantines to the Arabs of Armenia, Syria, and Egypt. This effectively lost control of North Africa, and the defense of Spain also became impossible.

​

The West remained in a state of economic confusion and hardship, while the remaining Byzantine Empire carried on.

 

Next the powerful Lombards invaded Italy from the north in 568 A.D., and took over most of the peninsula and all of Northern Italy. Their former territory was filled by the Avars. The Frankish Empire had expanded to absorb the Bretons on the West coast of France, and also the Thuringians and Burgundians. Later, in 560 A.D. the Slavic Bulgars invaded to attack the Greek city of Athens. Finally, even before the advent of Islam, the Ghasahid kingdom began to encroach upon most of Palestine, weakening the Byzantine hold on the Holy Land and Egypt.

​

The strength of the Eastern Empire was in its central position in over the Eastern Mediteranean, its Roman built roads, and sea power. But it never had the disciplined standing army of the old Roman Empire.

The maps illustrate clearly the relative poverty and collapse of the West, while the East continued to flourish, at least in the center of the Byzantine Empire. Although many smaller kingdoms rose out of the West, they were all local peoples simply getting independence by force.

 

The following outline for Revelation is borrowed with small modifications from D. Wallace's study (Bible.org):


Outline of Revelation

• I. The Things Past: Christ (1:1-20)
  • A. Introduction (1:1-8)
    • 1. Prologue (1:1-3)
      2. Salutation (1:4-8)
    B. The Vision of Christ (1:9-20)
    
    • 1. The Setting (1:9-11)
      2. The Scene (1:12-16)
      3. The Subsequent Response and Commission (1:17-20)
    
    
  II. The Things Present: The Churches (2:1–3:22)
  
  • 1. The Message to Ephesus (2:1-7)
    2. The Message to Smyrna (2:8-11)
    3. The Message to Pergamum (2:12-17)
    4. The Message to Thyatira (2:18-29)
    5. The Message to Sardis (3:1-6)
    6. The Message to Philadelphia (3:7-13)
    7. The Message to Laodicea (3:14-22)
  • 
    
  III. The Things Future: The Consummation (4:1–22:21)
  
  • The Tribulation Period (4:1–18:24)
    
    A. Introduction: The Vision of Heaven (4:1–5:14)
    • 1. The Throne of the Lord God Almighty (4:1-11)
      2. The Book of the Lion of the Tribe of Judah (5:1-14)
    
    B. The Seven Seal Judgments (6:1–8:1)
    
    • 1. The First Seal (6:1-2)
      2. The Second Seal (6:3-4)
      3. The Third Seal (6:5-6)
      4. The Fourth Seal (6:7-8)
      5. The Fifth Seal (6:9-11)
      6. The Sixth Seal (6:12-17)
      (First Parenthesis: The 144,000 Israelites and Innumerable Multitude [7:1-17])
      • a. The Sealing of the 144,000 (7:1-8)
        b. The Worship of the Tribulation Saints (7:9-17)
      7. The Seventh Seal (8:1)
    
    C. The Seven Trumpet Judgments (8:2–11:19)
    
    • 1. The First Trumpet (8:2-7)
      2. The Second Trumpet (8:8-9)
      3. The Third Trumpet (8:10-11)
      4. The Fourth Trumpet (8:12-13)
      5. The Fifth Trumpet (9:1-12)
      6. The Sixth Trumpet (9:13-21)
      (Second Parenthesis: The Little Book / the Two Witnesses [10:1–11:14])
      • a. The Little Book (10:1-11)
        b. The Two Witnesses (11:1-14)
      7. The Seventh Trumpet (11:15-19)
    • 
      (Third Parenthesis: The Woman and the War [12:1-18])
      • a. The Birth of the Male Child (12:1-6)
        b. The War in Heaven (12:7-12)
        c. The Persecution of the Woman (12:13-18)
      (Fourth Parenthesis: The Two Beasts [13:1-18])
      
      • a. The Beast out of the Sea (13:2-10)
        b. The Beast out of the Land (13:11-18)
      (Fifth Parenthesis: The Judgment by the Lamb [14:1-20])
      
      • a. The 144,000 Worshippers of the Lamb (14:1-5)
        b. Three Angelic Judgments (14:6-12)
        1) Against the Whole Earth (14:6-7)
        2) Against Babylon (14:8)
        3) Against Beast Worshippers (14:9-12)
        c. Blessing for Martyrs (14:13)
        d. The Reaper of Judgment (14:14-16)
        e. The Vintage of Judgment (14:17-20)
      
      
    D. The Seven Bowl Judgments (15:1–18:24)
    
    • 1. The Great Judgments Announced (15:1–16:21)
      • i. Intro to the Bowl Judgments (15:1–16:1)
        • 1) Song of Moses: Martyrs (15:1-4)
          2) Heavenly Scene: 7 Angels (15:5–16:1)
        1. The First Bowl (16:2)
        2. The Second Bowl (16:3)
        3. The Third Bowl (16:4-7)
        4. The Fourth Bowl (16:8-9)
        5. The Fifth Bowl (16:10-11)
        6. The Sixth Bowl (16:12-16)
        7. The Seventh Bowl (16:17-21)
      
      (Sixth Parenthesis: ?)
    • 2. Great Harlot Judged (17:1-18)
      • a. The Vision of the Harlot (17:1-6)
        b. Interpretation of the Vision (17:7-18)
        • 1) The Present Status (17:7-8)
          2) The Future Judgment (17:9-18)
      a) The Seven Heads (17:9-11)
      b) The Ten Horns (17:12-14)
      c) The Harlot (17:15-18)
    
    
    • (Seventh Parenthesis: ?)
      3. The Great City Fallen (18:1-24)
      • a. Announcement of Babylon’s Fall (18:1-3)
        b. The Cause of the Fall (18:4-8)
        c. The Lamentation over the Fall (18:9-19)
        • .....(1) By Kings (18:9-10)
          .....(2) By Merchants (18:11-17)
          .....(3) By Sea Captains (18:18-19)
        d. The Rejoicing Over the Fall (18:20)
        e. The Results of the Fall (18:21-24)
      
      
    E. The Seven Last Things (19:1–22:5)
    
    • The Millennial Kingdom (19:1–20:15)
    • 
      Intro: Praise for Judgment of Harlot, Wedding of Bride (19:1-10)
      • a. The Harlot’s Judgment (19:1-5)
        b. The Bride’s Wedding (19:6-10)
      
      1. The First Last Thing: Second Coming of Christ (19:11-16)
      2. The Second Last Thing: The Supper / Slaughter (19:17-21)
      3. The Third Last Thing: The Binding of Satan (20:1-3)
      4. The Fourth Last Thing: Kingdom of the Messiah (20:4-6)
      5. The Fifth Last Thing: The Loosing of Satan (20:7-10)
      6. The Sixth Last Thing: The Great White Throne (20:11-15)
    • 
      The Eternal State (21:1–22:5)
      7. The Seventh Last Thing: New Heaven / Earth (21:1–22:5)
      • a. The Visions Declared (21:1-2)
        b. New Heaven / Earth: Declared from Throne (21:1-8)
        c. The New Jerusalem: Seen by John (21:9–22:5)
        • 1) The New City (21:9-21)
          2) The “Non-Temple” (21:22-27)
          3) The River of Life (22:1-3a)
          4) The Light of the Lamb (22:3b-5)
        
        
    F. Epilogue (22:6-21)
    
    • 1. The Testimony of the Angel (22:6-11)
      2. The Testimony of Jesus (22:12-17)
      3. The Testimony of John (22:18-21)

"The book of Revelation virtually outlines itself, provided that one sees 1:19 as a key to the book (as those of the futurist school would). The outline employed in this paper is a modification of what was learned from S. Lewis Johnson, Jr., in the course “The Book of Revelation” (Dallas Seminary, 1976). Once one gets into the main section of the book (chapters 4–22) there is some discrepancy in how to outline the material, viz., either chronologically (tribulation, millennial kingdom, eternal state), or by the arrangement of “sevens.” As we have contended all along concerning the outline of the various NT books, a prioritized linear approach only sees half a picture. To compensate for this, we will highlight the secondary outline in italics (as we did Paul’s missionary journeys in Acts), even though it will not constitute a formal part of the outline." (D. Wallace, ibid.)

 

We are so inundated with evolutionist nonsense,
that we are all used to thinking of "mankind" as if it were a unit,
a single entity.

But this strategy or habit, is simply a way for atheists to avoid thinking about
the greatest reality of all, which every sentient human faces: death.

We talk of 'mankind' as if it were like our own body, a thing with an existence of its own,
a being, with consciousness, with sentience, with a memory, with a directed will:
that is we 'incorporate' "Mankind", just like we pretend that a corporation is a legal 'person', an actual being.

But there is no such thing as "Mankind" in this fantasy-sense,
anymore than a corporation is really a living being.

Mankind is not a magical 'golem', but simply a collection of individuals.
The one overbearing reality is that 'mankind' is simply a bunch of individuals.

Let me illustrate this further for clarity:

We talk about "the giraffe", being 20 feet tall, because this is an average,
all full-grown giraffes have an average height, so we say giraffes are so tall.
If the tortoise has an average life expectancy of 80 years, we say the tortoise lives 80 years.

Similarly, with mankind, we don't add up all the heights of all the men,
and say that mankind is 1,000 miles tall. Instead we say that "Man" is about 6 feet tall.

We should naturally do the same with AGE.
If the average man lives about 70 years, than "Man" is about 70 years old,
just as "Man" is about 6 feet tall. It is absurd to say that "Mankind" is 6,000 years old,
when no single member of the group will ever live past 120 years old.

The reality is that we are not a 'collective', travelling along for thousands of years.
We are a group of individuals, collectively walking forward for a maximum of about 100 years.

Mankind is, in the strictest and truest sense, about 100 years old,
and so are all the individual members of the group that makes up Mankind.

"We" are not going anywhere beyond about 80-100 years, and the end of this journey is DEATH.

All the talk, hype, banter, illusory viewpoint, is all a pathetic and desperate attempt
to avoid the one reality. Each of us now alive will die in less than 80 years.

Given that this is the real objective reality,
we ought to be preparing for our REAL journey, over the cliff of death.

We should not be distracted by foolish and useless banter about
"mankind" 'surviving' so many thousand years. That is just garbage.

We are all heading to the Great Unknown, and it will be arriving for each of us
in less than 80 years, perhaps less than 5 years or 2 years for some.

Time to prepare yourself to meet thy God.

Peace
Nazaroo