Do ALL Calvinist Say that faith Itself Comes From God, is A Gift Directly?

[savedbymercy]

A Person is only Justified by Faith when he or she comes to realize that they had been Justified before God by the imputed Righteousness of Christ. This is not a Righteousness because of our act of Faith or believing, but Righteousness because of the Faith or Faithfulness of Jesus Christ, For He is made of God, The Righteousness of His People 1 Cor 1:30

30But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

2 Cor 5:21

21For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

The Holy Ghost directs the born again one to Jesus Christ, Christ having satisfied, propitiated for them the just claims of God's Law against them, in keeping its precepts, and enduring its death penalty in their behalf. God given Faith embraces that accomplished Fact, they have been given to see that Christ is their Righteousness before God. Paul says Phil 3:9

9And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

This is a Revealed Righteousness Rom 1:16-17

16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

The word revealed is the greek word apokalyptō:

to make known, make manifest, disclose what before was unknown

Thats what the Gospel does for the called elect, it makes known to them what they did not know before, that they have a Righteousness given them, laid to their account by Jesus Christ..

 

[Skandelon]

One's own "affecting your heart" is not the same as God in-dwelling

I never said they were. you really need to study scholarly non-Calvinists and get a good grasp on what we actually believe.

Can you not see the distinction, or is your system so centered on the actions of man that God is irrelevant, save for giving us a word and an example?

Again with the straw-man? I don't mind debating you, but you need to debate me, not your own preconceived ideas of what you think I believe.

When have I ever said the word was a mere example? How many times have I listed all the various means that God employees to bring people to faith and repentance? When you are ready to have a discussion with me instead of yourself, let me know.

 

[Skandelon]

I agree. However, faith effectually comes from hearing (listening).

If that were true every Gentile who heard the gospel would have been saved. Paul said in Acts 28:28: "Therefore I want you to know that God's salvation has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will listen!"

This contrasted with the Jews who he had just discribed as being hardened:

"24 Some were convinced by what he said, but others would not believe. 25 They disagreed among themselves and began to leave after Paul had made this final statement: "The Holy Spirit spoke the truth to your forefathers when he said through Isaiah the prophet: 26 " 'Go to this people and say, "You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving." 27 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.'

Calvinists make the mistake of equating man's natural condition from birth with the hardened/calloused condition of men who have rejected God's revelation all their lives and subsequently have been sealed in their blind condition so as to accomplish a redemptive purpose.

 

[glfredrick]

I never said they were. you really need to study scholarly non-Calvinists and get a good grasp on what we actually believe.

Again with the straw-man? I don't mind debating you, but you need to debate me, not your own preconceived ideas of what you think I believe.

When have I ever said the word was a mere example? How many times have I listed all the various means that God employees to bring people to faith and repentance? When you are ready to have a discussion with me instead of yourself, let me know.

I read your favorite Arminian often... Clarke's Commentaries come bundled free with almost every Bible software package. I've read Wesley. I've read Arminius. Got someone else "scholarly" and Arminian in mind?

And, again, I can only respond to what you actually write here on the board, not what you "believe." If your beliefs are other than what is written here, then that is on you, not on me.

The point is, salvation is either of God or it is not of God -- PERIOD. We do not "help God," nor "take God's hand," nor "experience a second blessing," nor "choose." God's gift is faith to believe, and a supernatural event that transforms us from sin-dead creatures into living adopted sons.

 

[Skandelon]

I read your favorite Arminian often... Clarke's Commentaries come bundled free with almost every Bible software package. I've read Wesley. I've read Arminius. Got someone else "scholarly" and Arminian in mind?

And, again, I can only respond to what you actually write here on the board, not what you "believe." If your beliefs are other than what is written here, then that is on you, not on me.

I'm fine with you only dealing with what I write, but as I pointed out you resort to straw-men attacks regardless of what I say which reveals you really don't know much about what non-Calvinists believe.

Do you really think I think the Words of God are given as just an example? When did I ever write that?

Do you really think I believe God is trying to save people but men are just too powerful for God? Really?

Do you really think I believe there is no distinction between God's work in making His appeal for man to be reconciled and His indwelling of those who believe?

When you begin to represent my views correctly and provide arguments against those actual views, then I can engage you in a real debate. Otherwise, you are just debating yourself.

The point is, salvation is either of God or it is not of God -- PERIOD.

That is a debate fallacy call "begging the question." We both believe salvation is "of God." By presuming that our view of salvation is "not of God" is to presume the very point up for debate. This does not help the discussion.

We do not "help God," nor "take God's hand," nor "experience a second blessing,"

I don't remember using any of those phrases, so once again I'm not sure who you are responding to...

or "choose."

Even Calvinists affirm the need for men to make a choice. They just believe the choice is determined by man's desires/nature and once God's effectual grace changes that nature they will certainly choose to follow.

So, in reality we should both affirm men make a choice, but instead discuss the effectuality or resistibility of God's gracious gift.

 

[DHK]

DHK denies that faith is a gift of God. The word "all" needs to be severely truncated.

God never gives spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate. I have never seen one person on this board post one Scripture that can refute that statement. Regeneration does not come by God's faith.

Lest some get technical about the term, neither does salvation. God does not give spiritual gifts nor the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved. All of which I said above applies here also. Show me the Scripture. I can give you plenty of Scripture where we are commanded to "Believe on the Lord and we shall be saved." But that is our faith, not God's. It doesn't say: Believe with God's belief to be saved. That doesn't even make sense.

 

[Iconoclast]

God never gives spiritual gifts or the fruit of the Spirit to the unregenerate. I have never seen one person on this board post one Scripture that can refute that statement. Regeneration does not come by God's faith.

Lest some get technical about the term, neither does salvation. God does not give spiritual gifts nor the fruit of the Spirit to the unsaved. All of which I said above applies here also. Show me the Scripture. I can give you plenty of Scripture where we are commanded to "Believe on the Lord and we shall be saved." But that is our faith, not God's. It doesn't say: Believe with God's belief to be saved. That doesn't even make sense.

Here is a verse for you;

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

 

[DHK]

Here is a verse for you;

2Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Why is that a verse for me. The author of my faith is Christ. That didn't begin until after I believed.
I had to believe first in order to become a Christian, in order to have "the faith" that Jude tells us to contend for.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

You responded to Iconoclast with this...

Why is that a verse for me. The author of my faith is Christ. That didn't begin until after I believed.

Absolutely. Every single person has a choice to make. Either to embrace Christ....or deny Christ.

The calvinistic view of this issue turns God into a master puppeteer, controling His robots.

I had to believe first in order to become a Christian, in order to have "the faith" that Jude tells us to contend for.

Me too. The free will" choice" of the individual is at the heart of the gosple.

AiC

 

[savedbymercy]

Gal 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Phil 3:6,9

Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Now why am I introducing the law with Faith ? Because there is a big difference between Righteousness by Faith and Righteousness because of our Faith !

You see if one is made righteous before God because of their Faith, then they are made righteous out of the Law, mans act of Faith. Righteousness out of the Law, and righteousness out of mans act of faith or believing are of the same kind or principal. In other words, if one says they are Justified, made righteous before God because of their Faith, they may as well say, they are justified before God or made righteous because of their works or baptism or keeping the Law.

The word law is the greek word nomos and means :

anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command

a) of any law whatsoever

1) a law or rule producing a state approved of God

a) by the observance of which is approved of God

2) a precept or injunction

3) the rule of action prescribed by reason

b) of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents

c) the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love

d) the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

To make it simple the Law or law is any command or injunction whatsoever. Its not limited to the law of moses.

Faith is described even by Christ as an act of law keeping along with mercy Here Matt 23:23

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Notice, these ought ye have done ! or to do or to perform.

So no question faith is a performance by us, something we do, in fact its the keeping of a command 1 Jn 3:23

23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ

Now remember what the definition of law nomos is a command !

So, those of you who insist that one is made righteous before God because of their Faith or that you are Justified before God because of your act of Faith or believing, you are in essence saying what the bible condemns, and that is you are Justified out of keeping the Law, and so doing and believing you are a debtor to keep the whole Law, for Christ died in vain for you Gal 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Gal 5:3

For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

This does not only apply to circumcision, that was just the issue there in Galatia, that some were being seduced into believing that their sanctification is not complete unless they keep the law and be circumcised, which if conformed to, would only show that they have not trusted in the Finish work of Christ for all of salvation, and something Else by them must be done.

So thats the underline principle, whenever we believe that something else by us must be done in order to have complete and final Justification before God, whether it be baptism, circumcision, yes even the act of believing, we have fallen from and frustrated the Grace of God, and seek salvation as it were by the works of the Law..

 

[DHK]

So thats the underline principle, whenever we believe that something else by us must be done in order to have complete and final Justification before God, whether it be baptism, circumcision, yes even the act of believing, we have fallen from and frustrated the Grace of God, and seek salvation as it were by the works of the Law..

You lack understanding in "faith." Faith is not a work. There a few that would define faith as a work.
Define work. When you understand what "a" work is, then you understand that believing, trust, faith, confidence, etc. do not fall under the parameters of "works."

 

[Iconoclast]

The free will" choice" of the individual is at the heart of the gosple.

This is a tragic and mis-guided description of good news. Man or anything he does by himself is not good news.

When you have a man centered view this is the result.

 

[Benjamin]

Gal 2:21

I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.


You see if one is made righteous before God because of their Faith, then they are made righteous out of the Law, mans act of Faith. Righteousness out of the Law, and righteousness out of mans act of faith or believing are of the same kind or principal. In other words, if one says they are Justified, made righteous before God because of their Faith, they may as well say, they are justified before God or made righteous because of their works or baptism or keeping the Law.

You shoot yourself in foot with the use of Gal 2:21 right from the get go; which clearly shows that those Galatian teachers who teach salvation by the law most certainly do frustrate the grace of God. In other words, that verse says not only that Grace is not irresistible but it is leading to the correct teaching that righteousness comes to you by faith.

YOU become righteous in faith?

Rom 10:9-10
(9) because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
(10) For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

Note: the word “you” is used 4 times in Romans 10:9 alone! You will be surprised how many times the word “you” is used in the Book that your theology supposes to suggest that you can do nothing.

When do you do become righteous in faith?


(Eph 1:13) In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise,

Do not frustrate the Grace of God by confusing it with contextual messages relating to the law and works; you recieve righteousness through grace after you believe.

 

[DHK]

This is a tragic and mis-guided description of good news. Man or anything he does by himself is not good news.

When you have a man centered view this is the result.

Beware what you call a warped view. You have three fingers pointing back at you. We believe that our view of salvation is totally God-centered, so your accusations are false. In fact it may be more God-centered than your view. When an individual follows the commands of God, then it is God-centered is it not? If he disobeys the commands of Christ then it is not God-centered, correct? If one refuses to obey that simple command "to believe" then they are disobeying the command of God and they certainly are not practicing a God-centered faith.

For a Christian, his faith must be in God. Whose faith? His faith. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Not all God's heart; all your heart!

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all YOUR heart, mind and soul.
--This your heart, your mind, and your soul. How do you account for this?

Are you simply a robot, a mindless puppet in the hand of God that cannot think for yourself? I don't understand your position. If you have no faith of your own then you can't serve God. God serves God through you the robot of God? And that seems to be your faith.

 

[percho]

But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Lets everybody pick a verse for when faith is come. Faith cometh by hearing.

I'll go fifth.

 

[percho]

Define work. What work did this man do? Einstein.

 

[DHK]

Define work. What work did this man do? Einstein.

Einstein was a theoretical physicist. In that field he worked. In his work, he developed the theory of relativity. That was his work.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Saved by mercy

You posted...

You see if one is made righteous before God because of their Faith, then they are made righteous out of the Law, mans act of Faith. Righteousness out of the Law, and righteousness out of mans act of faith or believing are of the same kind or principal. In other words, if one says they are Justified, made righteous before God because of their Faith, they may as well say, they are justified before God or made righteous because of their works or baptism or keeping the Law.

The problem with your statement is that Almighty God has made clear that when a person chooses Christ, they have done a "non-work".

God clearly and emphatically declares that a person who chooses faith in Christ is NOT doing a "work.....

For it is be grace that you are saved, through faith, and that not of yourselve..(being "good", being "pieous" or "holy"' etc)..it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast.

God is so clear on this. The difference between Grace and works can not be over emphasised. And when someone chooses to place their faith in Christ, they are not performing a work, as Calvinists so horribly misunderstand.

Dont let them confuse you with their false teaching and equally false accusations.

God bless.

Aic

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

When you have a man centered view this is the result.

Thats why I hold to a purely God centered theology.

Mans 1 and only contribution, is the only one God will accept from us...

The complete non-work of faith in Christ.

 

[Iconoclast]

Beware what you call a warped view. You have three fingers pointing back at you. We believe that our view of salvation is totally God-centered, so your accusations are false. In fact it may be more God-centered than your view. When an individual follows the commands of God, then it is God-centered is it not?
no...not how you ,AIC,skandelon,and winman...present it..it is man centered

If he disobeys the commands of Christ then it is not God-centered, correct? If one refuses to obey that simple command "to believe" then they are disobeying the command of God and they certainly are not practicing a God-centered faith.

For a Christian, his faith must be in God. Whose faith? His faith. Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Not all God's heart; all your heart!

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all YOUR heart, mind and soul.
--This your heart, your mind, and your soul. How do you account for this?

Are you simply a robot, a mindless puppet in the hand of God that cannot think for yourself? I don't understand your position. If you have no faith of your own then you can't serve God. God serves God through you the robot of God? And that seems to be your faith.

DHk,

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all YOUR heart, mind and soul.
--This your heart, your mind, and your soul. How do you account for this?

DHK...you say-

I don't understand your position.

Let me ask you.....what is one of the central promises of the New Covenant?

It is the promise of......

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

God gives a new heart! God works in His children DHK!
If man was just peachy keen to begin with,why would we need a new heart..if it is as you and AIC say?

The other day I believe Aaron pointed out in one of your posts where you had about ten ....I ...statements, you said I believe, I have faith, I choose, I decided.
Here in Ezk 36:25...all of the I statements belong to God,and not to man.
That is what most all Calvinistic believers love to point out,....give all glory to God...DHK....all of it.

If you want to see more of God's I statements, turn to EZK34 at least 16 times God says I will do this, I will seek and save.....not I will make salvation possible....and wait and see what men will to do...