Do ALL Calvinist Say that faith Itself Comes From God, is A Gift Directly?

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

You posted...

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

That is a WONDERFULL passage of scripture, Iconoclast. One of my all time favorite passages of scripture. Thank you for posting it.

I remember back when I was a new christian. It was so beautiful to see all of those new attitudes and behaviors become part of my lifestyle.

Those are the typical type of changes that take place in the life of a new believer...such as myself back then...after the seeker has chosen to place their faith in Christ and begin their new life in Christ.

Almighty God causes those changes to occur, by His grace and enabling.

What a wonderful God we have.

 

[DHK]

The other day I believe Aaron pointed out in one of your posts where you had about ten ....I ...statements, you said I believe, I have faith, I choose, I decided.
Here in Ezk 36:25...all of the I statements belong to God,and not to man.
That is what most all Calvinistic believers love to point out,....give all glory to God...DHK....all of it.

You have a very dour outlook on life Icon.

Psalms 27:1 <<A Psalm of David.>> The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?

2 When the wicked, even mine enemies and my foes, came upon me to eat up my flesh, they stumbled and fell.

3 Though an host should encamp against me, my heart shall not fear: though war should rise against me, in this will I be confident.

4 One thing have I desired of the LORD, that will I seek after; that I may dwell in the house of the LORD all the days of my life, to behold the beauty of the LORD, and to enquire in his temple.

5 For in the time of trouble he shall hide me in his pavilion: in the secret of his tabernacle shall he hide me; he shall set me up upon a rock.

6 And now shall mine head be lifted up above mine enemies round about me: therefore will I offer in his tabernacle sacrifices of joy; I will sing, yea, I will sing praises unto the LORD.

7 Hear, O LORD, when I cry with my voice: have mercy also upon me, and answer me.

8 When thou saidst, Seek ye my face; my heart said unto thee, Thy face, LORD, will I seek.


13 I had fainted, unless I had believed to see the goodness of the LORD in the land of the living.

14 Wait on the LORD: be of good courage, and he shall strengthen thine heart: wait, I say, on the LORD.

David wasn't a Calvinist was he, but he was a man after God's own heart!

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK,

5Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow.

David was very much a calvinist......sorry to see you see the promise of salvation as a "dour" outlook on life

David wrote psalm 27 as a believer....


AIC.....after the seeker has chosen to place their faith in Christ and begin their new life in Christ.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

we are talking about two different concepts.....two different ideas of what is salvation.

I like the one described in the bible....the one that God does....God choosing

you seem to prefer the man made idea.....man choosing

 

[Winman]

Faith is not a work we do, it is a ceasing of work. It is not hanging on, it is letting go, it is allowing God to do for us what we cannot do ourselves.

An analogy;

You are very sick and go to the doctor. After examining you he says you have a very diseased heart and cannot live more than a month. You suggest that perhaps proper rest, diet, and exercise might save you. The doctor says no, your heart is beyond repair, but if you will allow him, he can give you a new heart, a transplant that will save your life. You are wary, but you decide to trust the doctor. You come in a few days later, you are put to sleep and the doctor performs the operation. He puts a new healthy heart in you, you are healed and quickly recover.

Now, who saved your life? Did your faith in the doctor save your life? No, trusting the doctor simply allowed him to save you, your trust was not a work, it did not put the new heart in you, the doctor performed all the work and only he deserves credit for saving you.

Believeing Jesus is the same. It is a ceasing from trying to save yourself and placing your soul in his hands. And if you do, just like the surgeon he will give you a new heart.

 

[Alive in Christ]

David was very much a calvinist

:laugh:












.........

 

[percho]

Einstein was a theoretical physicist. In that field he worked. In his work, he developed the theory of relativity. That was his work.

Is not the concept of man's faith a concept of mental work of the mind with or without the input of God depending on your point of view?

Therefore work?

 

[percho]

Iconoclast...

You posted...



That is a WONDERFULL passage of scripture, Iconoclast. One of my all time favorite passages of scripture. Thank you for posting it.

I remember back when I was a new christian. It was so beautiful to see all of those new attitudes and behaviors become part of my lifestyle.

Those are the typical type of changes that take place in the life of a new believer...such as myself back then...after the seeker has chosen to place their faith in Christ and begin their new life in Christ.

Almighty God causes those changes to occur, by His grace and enabling.

What a wonderful God we have.

That is my concept of the new covenant. Either because we can not or are not free willing to better ourselves, God will do it for us through the Christ.

 

[psalms109:31]

2 Corinthians 3:
14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Hebrews 12:2
looking unto Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.

The faith is finished a noun. Jesus did the work for our salvation, but Jesus doesn't need to do the verb believe, trust we do. To trust in Jesus and listen and learn from Him.

Trust in Jesus is not a work, doing the Law is.

Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God;I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.

Ezekiel 33:13
When I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, but he trusts in his own righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous works shall be remembered; but because of the iniquity that he has committed, he shall die.

Romans 4:
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8 Blessed is the one
whose sin the Lord will never count against them.”[Psalm 32:1,2]

 

[percho]

Here is a thought that just came to me.

Let us make man in our image after our likeness.

When the us above took that lump of clay and molded it and shaped it and got it just right did he say now if you will have faith I will give you life.


Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: dying thou dost die that is to be dead in trespass and sins.

Now if you will just have faith.

 

[DHK]

DHK,


David was very much a calvinist......sorry to see you see the promise of salvation as a "dour" outlook on life

David wrote psalm 27 as a believer....


AIC.....after the seeker has chosen to place their faith in Christ and begin their new life in Christ.
:laugh::laugh::laugh:

we are talking about two different concepts.....two different ideas of what is salvation.

I like the one described in the bible....the one that God does....God choosing

you seem to prefer the man made idea.....man choosing

When Jesus said "It is finished," speaking of the work of salvation, It was done. The penalty of our sins was paid for. There was nothing more to do. He would be buried; then 3 days later would gloriously rise from the dead conquering sin, death, and Satan himself.

I put my trust in the finished work of Christ. It is He who saved me. Like David's psalm I can rejoice in him. I have a testimony to give. I can rejoice in what he has done for me. Why? Because I trusted in His sacrifice; His atonement; His grace.
However that salvation came at a great cost. It cannot be worked for. It is a gift. It is the gift of God. A gift must be received. Thus 30 some years ago I received that gift by faith (John 1:12) and became his child.

But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: (John 1:12)

One cannot give a testimony of salvation without using the first person singular.

 

[DHK]

Is not the concept of man's faith a concept of mental work of the mind with or without the input of God depending on your point of view?

Therefore work?

No. That is why Jesus likened faith to a child. They trust their parents and not strangers. That is not mental work. It is trust, confidence. Unless you have that trust you cannot be saved. The child's trust is not something he works out mentally like Einstein, but rather it is from his heart. He knows whom he believes and he will trust that person implicitly with all of his life. That is not a work; it is faith, even the faith of a child. And it is not given by God. The child must grow, learn about the gospel, and in the same way that he put his trust in his parents at a very early age, he also must put that same kind of faith in Christ.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

I said....

.....after the seeker has chosen to place their faith in Christ and begin their new life in Christ.

And you responded...

we are talking about two different concepts.....two different ideas of what is salvation.

I know. When are you going to put away your calvinism books and return to the scriptures as your truth authority? Your calvinism books are stripping you of the ability to understand basic biblical truth.

I like the one described in the bible....the one that God does....God choosing

Then you believe in a god who has a bunch of mindless puppets and robots who choose God because because the puppeteer programmed them to come.

That is not the true God nor the true gosple.

you seem to prefer the man made idea.....man choosing

Regarding salvation, God has opened the door to all, and the Holy Spirit convicts and draws people to come.

Those people have a choice to make. Apart from any and all "works", by pure grace through faith, they can embrace Christ or not.

Thats the Gospel of Jesus Christ, Iconoclast.

People can hold to it, or choose the opinions of men.

Its so much better to heed the wisdom of the scriptures, rather then the wisdom of men.

Or... a man.

Be wise.

 

[percho]

There none that seeketh after God.

Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.

Paul was not going to Damascus seeking God.

 

[Iconoclast]

AIC

I know. When are you going to put away your calvinism books and return to the scriptures as your truth authority? Your calvinism books are stripping you of the ability to understand basic biblical truth.

I guess EZK. is a calvinist book,because that is all I posted!

you said you liked it, but perhaps you never noticed;

bring you into your own land.

25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

28And ye shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God.

looks like EZK is describing those you call robots...saying God causes them to walk in His statutes;
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutesOh no AIC...when will the wicked EZK...put away his calvinistic ideas that God causes the change in His elect.....maybe you can correct him also:laugh:

Regarding salvation, God has opened the door to all

but in your view he saves no one....he can only open the door, they must do something, before He can do anything

by pure grace through faith, they can embrace Christ

actually ezk 34 describes Christ embracing His sheep..
you mention scripture ,but do not seem to understand the verses.

 

[Alive in Christ]

There none that seeketh after God.

Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou [art] the LORD God, and [that] thou hast turned their heart back again.

Paul was not going to Damascus seeking God.

There is literally NONE that seeks God? Really?

Lets see if thats true, or maybe we need "the rest of the story".....

“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.”
(Matthew 6:33)

“7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8 “For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9 “Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? 10 “Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? 11 “If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!” (Matthew 7:7-11)

It is clear that Jesus taught people to seek after God, to seek spiritual matters in their life. The people that Jesus was speaking to were not yet “born again”, for the work of the cross had not be accomplished, the Holy Spirit not yet given, and there was no new creation. So if “none can seek God” as what Calvinism teaches, than what Jesus was teaching these people if they could not do it? The doctrinal truth is that these people had “the ability” to seek after God.

Looking at what Paul said in Romans 2 on people seeking God
Many Calvinists point out Romans 3:10-18 as a proof text to show that no one can seek after God without being born again, but Paul “before” Romans 3 makes some interesting comments in Romans 2.

“5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS: 7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life; 8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation. 9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek, 10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. 11 For there is no partiality with God.” (Romans 2:5-11)

Paul states those who rebelled against God, knowing that He has “revealed” Himself to mankind will have wrath and judgment, “because of their stubbornness and unrepentant heart.” It was on them, they had a choice, and they chose against the Lord. Paul says there are those “doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life”, thus showing that these people could seek after God. Paul gives a contrast of those who seek after God and those who reject God, and that this is for anyone, for there is “no partiality with God.” Clearly this in context shows Paul was not rejecting people seeking God, (i.e. Romans 3:10-18) but that those who seek God are responding to what God has revealed to them. (Romans 1:18-32)
This information is here to give a Biblical answer to those who teach that man cannot seek God without first being born again.

Indeed....there is much more to the story. Men do indeed seek after, and desire to know, God...before being regenerated.

According to the scriptures, of course. I really dont care much for what Calvin and his books have to say.

I'm a scripture guy.


//http://all4jesus.wordpress.com/2008/04/02/examining-scripture-concerning-calvinism-on-none-seek-god/

 

[Alive in Christ]

Iconoclast...

Please refer to my response to Percho below your post...as the information in that post covers your objections perfectly.

Its late and I need to get some sleep.



AiC

 

[savedbymercy]

alive:

Men do indeed seek after, and desire to know, God...before being regenerated.

You need to instruct paul then, for this is what he wrote under inspiration of God Rom 3:9-11

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; All are under sin until newbirth !

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

alive:



You need to instruct paul then, for this is what he wrote under inspiration of God Rom 3:9-11

9What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; All are under sin until newbirth !

10As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

:thumbs::thumbs::thumbs:

 

[psalms109:31]

Seek

We can't seek no one we don't know? We know God through Jesus Christ.

It starts with the messenger with the words of life. That is why Jesus sends His disciple's out to spread the message about Him to make more disciple's. So they will know the one who they don't seek through the word and life of Jesus.

To me Paul say's that as a message to go spread the good news not as a message that some can't be saved. What is really influencing us on how we see the word of God? Prospective changing how we see a lot of things.

 

[Van]

Reply to Gfredrick,

Van, you have missed the mark in both directions with your comments on Calvinism. And, no, this is not just some put down because you have it all figured out -- it is a call for you to ACTUALLY figure some of this stuff out before you go and place your foot in your mouth once again.

Calvinism DOES NOT stipulate that "our corruption results in "always" desiring sinful stuff and "never" desiring God." You misunderstand total depravity. Calvinism does stipulate, however, that our choices will be in line with our nature, which is sinful. In any case, even if a great and godly "choice" is made by a person, that choice is of no consequence in the hierarchy of God, for God has made plain that our works are nothing but "filthy rags." (Isa 64:6, a concept picked up by Paul and carried forward into the NT era.)

Neither does Calvinism "say all mankind makes a "free-will" "choice" to sin..." We do not advocate "free-will" in that manner. Mankind sins because we are sinners. Really no choice in the matter at all. We just do what comes naturally. Also, God is NOT the author of sin. To even suggest such -- for the sake of argument or otherwise -- is blasphemy! No person claiming the name of Christ can say that there is ANY darkness within God! Using this as a means of argument means one of two things... 1) You need to repent, for you are carrying on the work of the enemy, becoming "the accuser of the brethren; or 2) You are simply misinformed and need to first learn the truth, then recant and make public the truth.

(1) OK, you think I am wrong. Fine, I think Calvinism is wrong.

(2)"Calvinism DOES NOT stipulate that "our corruption results in "always" desiring sinful stuff and "never" desiring God." Yes it does. You seem to either not understand Calvinism or are unwilling to defend its actual doctrines.

(3) Of course our autonomous faith in Christ is a work that is worthless, a filthy rag. But if God credits our worthless faith as righteousness, then it is God who saves us, we do not save ourselves with worthless stuff. You seen not to understand my position, yet you "know it is wrong." Food for thought

(4) And of course Calvinism does not teach "free will" that is why I put it in quotation marks, Calvinism says we are free to chose sinful stuff, some not necessarily as sinful as other sinful stuff, but when exercising our will does not include seeking God through faith, it is not free.

(5) Final point, when we are free to choose only one alternative for the outcome of our life, that is not choice, that is non-choice redefined by Calvinism to mean choice. Pure twaddle.