fallacies of "non-cals"

[Alive in Christ]

Jesusfan...

Dont know that he is "blindly" following Calvin, think he is wedded to a "high end: take on Calvinism, that God is cause/determinite in all things...

No dought about that! :laugh:

Some from the Arminian side is wedded to "free will" so much that its almost as if God sitting it out on sidelines hoping and praying that one of us make that decision to follow Christ!

I agree. There are indeed *fruit loops* in both camps.

AiC

 

[Skandelon]

Agreed. Let's do this more.

You didn't respond to my argument regarding the inclusive aspects of the terms being employed. Instead, you continue to restate things that we agree upon...such as:

World almost NEVER is inclusive of every single person on earth. It simply is not. For you to stubbornly argue that it is is for you to give evidence that you are not at all open to reason.

That misses the point Luke. Try to follow the argument instead of saying the same thing over and over again. I'm not attempting to argue that "world/all" always means every individual. The point is that these terms, like in the passage which says, "all men everywhere" are inclusive in their intent. You affirm that inclusivity and universality in cases such as the gospel being preached because it doesn't affect your system, but in verses about atonement and God's desires you change your methods. That is inconsistent. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

I think Allan summed it up quite well when he wrote:

What you present is a misunderstanding perpetuated by many who know very little about the other sides views or their arguments. There are 'very' few non-cals or Arminians who state that 'all' always means 'everyone, since it can mean either all of a thing/whole OR all of a part of a thing/whole; or that "world" always at all time means ALL mankind. Just because it has varied definitions (not contradicting ones) I do agree with you that one does not or should not pick and choose which best fits their view or theological position.

There is one silly non-biblical definition of "world" that is commonly 'tried' to be perpetuated but has no historical substance to it.. and that is the term "world" can mean or refer to 'God's elect'.

 

[Skandelon]

Sure, but why yield that point at all when it obviously does not?

I thought you affirmed God's love for everyone in another thread? So, why presume otherwise with regard to John 3:16? Calvin didn't, why do you?

 

[Skandelon]

It is ridiculous to say that God loves the human race so much that he allows the vast majority of them to choose to go to hell without stopping them.

So, what's your point? Is it that God doesn't love them or that he doesn't give them a choice, because I thought Calvinists affirmed both God's love for mankind and his allowing them to choose according to their nature?

Are you sure you know the doctrine you are attempting to defend?

 

[rbell]

It does plenty with those who are more concerned with facts and reason than emotion.

Emotional people will always be Arminians. If a calvinist thinks he is going to persuade an Arminian by politicking, he's got a lot to learn. In order to come to the truth on these matters one must stop making decisions based solely on FEELINGS and make them based on reason.

Wow. These kinds of statements are what makes it nearly impossible to have fruitful discussions on the issues.

Particularly if one broadens definitions of "Arminian" to mean "one whose soteriology differs from mine in any substantive fashion," or "one who doesn't go as far with Calvinistic positions as I do" (which I have a sneaky suspicion may be happening...but then again, I could be wrong).

Anyhow...carry on. I'll make the popcorn.

 

[Alive in Christ]

Originally Posted by Luke2427
It is ridiculous to say that God loves the human race so much that he allows the vast majority of them to choose to go to hell without stopping them.

He is only given them what they want. God is giving them what they have chosen.


Whats ridiculous is the calvinistic idea that God decided at the begining.....

"These billions over here I decree to be saved and inherit heaven."

"But those billions over there...tough luck...I decree to be doomed to hell.

HOW IN THE WORLD does that glorify God? How in the world does square with the truth that God is love, and that He is a God of grace, and mercy, and justice and longsuffering???

It doesnt.

 

[JesusFan]

He is only given them what they want. God is giving them what they have chosen.


Whats ridiculous is the calvinistic idea that God decided at the begining.....

"These billions over here I decree to be saved and inherit heaven."

"But those billions over there...tough luck...I decree to be doomed to hell.

HOW IN THE WORLD does that glorify God? How in the world does square with the truth that God is love, and that He is a God of grace, and mercy, and justice and longsuffering???

It doesnt.

Better question...

why should/would God decide to save ANY from a fallen race, whose goal is to basically "play god" and create religions/god in their own image?

The Cross forever shows us that God is Love AND He is Holy, and the method that he chooses to use to reddem is His plan and purpose..

Thought for you to ponder...

What IF the number saved by God election is actually greater than total amount that would have accepted Christ "by own free will response?"

Whoever gets saved does NOT deserve it, and God will do it!

 

[Alive in Christ]

JesusFan...

Better question...

why should/would God decide to save ANY from a fallen race, whose goal is to basically "play god" and create religions/god in their own image?

Because "God is love" and it is not His will that ANY should perish, but that ALL have the opportunity to inherit eternal life.

The Cross forever shows us that God is Love AND He is Holy, and the method that he chooses to use to reddem is His plan and purpose.

Agreed

Thought for you to ponder...

What IF the number saved by God election is actually greater than total amount that would have accepted Christ "by own free will response?"

Pure speculation.

But I would venture to say that God would be more pleased if 10 made it to heaven because they chose to recieve Christ, rather than 50 billion who did so because God programmed those 50 billion like robots.


The father of the wayword prodigal son gave that son the great party, rather than the son who never left.

Whoever gets saved does NOT deserve it, and God will do it!

Agreed.

 

[Amy.G]

It is ridiculous to say that God loves the human race so much that he allows the vast majority of them to choose to go to hell without stopping them.

Does it make you "feel" better to say that God doesn't love them and allows them to go to hell?



Listen, people go to hell not for a lack of love from God, but because they chose to reject it.

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan...



Because "God is love" and it is not His will that ANY should perish, but that ALL have the opportunity to inherit eternal life.



Agreed



Pure speculation.

But I would venture to say that God would be more pleased if 10 made it to heaven because they chose to recieve Christ, rather than 50 billion who did so because God programmed those 50 billion like robots.


The father of the wayword prodigal son gave that son the great party, rather than the son who never left.



Agreed.

have to understand that we do NOT see God having us as His "robots" though...

More like a Father who sees a Wayword son who is determined to keep on going other way from Him whenever he tries to help them to get back on the "broad and narrow road"
So the Fathers decides to bring the Son back to Himself, as the son cannot on his own find his way back Home..

So we being the receipts of the fathers grace and love are REALLY appreciatitive to Him, as we got Grace we never derserved, and love Him because he first loved us, and stepped in to make it so that we could actually love him back in return!

 

[Luke2427]

Luke2427

I posted...



And you responded....




Nonsense. Its the truth of the scriptures.



Nonsense. Your allegience to John Calvin has rendered you unable to properly discern truth from the scriptures.



Nonsense. Foolishness



Its invincibly plain that you have a blind alligience to Calvin. You are not the only one, there are others. Your truth authority is John Calvin, not the scriptures.

THAT is invincibly plain

AiC

Calvin has nothing to do with it. It is what the Word of God clearly says there.

Luther and Calvin were tools in the hands of God to get the Church back TO the Word of God but the fact that this verse refers to US is as plain as anything that is taught anywhere in the Word of God.

Any clear thinking person can see it for himself.

 

[Luke2427]

Dont know that he is "blindly" following Calvin, think he is wedded to a "high end: take on Calvinism, that God is cause/determinite in all things...

Some from te Arminian side is wedded to "free will" so much that its almost as if God sitting it out on sidelines hoping and praying that one of us make that decision to follow Christ!

Brother, I am wedded to Romans 11:36.

 

[Luke2427]

You didn't respond to my argument regarding the inclusive aspects of the terms being employed. Instead, you continue to restate things that we agree upon...such as:



That misses the point Luke. Try to follow the argument instead of saying the same thing over and over again. I'm not attempting to argue that "world/all" always means every individual. The point is that these terms, like in the passage which says, "all men everywhere" are inclusive in their intent. You affirm that inclusivity and universality in cases such as the gospel being preached because it doesn't affect your system, but in verses about atonement and God's desires you change your methods. That is inconsistent. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

Yes, inclusive of a small minority of the human race.

Just as Romans 1:8 uses "kosmos" to include a very small percentage of the human race.

The elect occupy a very small percentage of the human race from all over the whole world from all the nations of the world.

To push these terms to be inclusive of MOST of the human race or every single human being in the human race is to abuse the Scriptures to support one's doctrine.


Question: am going to get another warning from you about this post too?

 

[Alive in Christ]

JesusFan...

have to understand that we do NOT see God having us as His "robots" though...

Excuse me??


The doctrine of calvinistic "election" teaches that God looked down the corridors of time, saw all that would take place, and then decided to "give" the "gift" of faith in Christ to certain people, while withholding that gift from everyone else.

Do you deny that?

Thats just my articulation of it up there. But I believe its accurate.

Actually, let me verify it. Hold on.....

tick...tock...tick...tock. :thumbs:

OK.

Here it is from the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura"...

Election Defined

"That eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on the account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and eternal salvation" (Berkhof, Systematic Theology , P.114).

The Canons of Dort state:

"Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He hath, out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault, from their primitive state of rectitude, into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect, and foundation of salvation."

By election, then, Calvinists mean:

(1) Out of fallen humanity God chose certain persons unto salvation. God elects people.

(2) The number of God's elect is fixed.

(3) God does not elect individuals based on foreseen merit of any kind, including faith. Election is an act of God's sovereign choice.

(4) God's election and calling are invincible.

(5) The purpose and motive of God's election are His glory, "To the praise of His glorious grace!"

If thats not having, and then programming, robots, I'd like to know what is.


http://www.mbrem123.com/calvinism/elec1.php

 

[Luke2427]

JesusFan...



Excuse me??


The doctrine of calvinistic "election" teaches that God looked down the corridors of time, saw all that would take place, and then decided to "give" the "gift" of faith in Christ to certain people, while withholding that gift from everyone else.
Do you deny that?

You obviously are totally unqualified to speak on this matter because that is not at all what any Calvinist has EVER believed.

No one who has spent two hours in theology 101 would accuse Calvinists of that.

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan...



Excuse me??


The doctrine of calvinistic "election" teaches that God looked down the corridors of time, saw all that would take place, and then decided to "give" the "gift" of faith in Christ to certain people, while withholding that gift from everyone else.

Do you deny that?

Agree with that, except my position is that God knows ALL are reprobate, and decided to elect out a people for His glory and purpose/faithful remnant
That God "works" applies the grace needed to grant the person an actual change of heart and mind, which now allows them to be able to receive Jesus by their faith
Grace gift of God, Chrsit atoning work applied on my behalf, I still had to place faith in it to receive it.. He made so that I could and would oplace faith in jesus and prove/confirm my election was real!

Thats just my articulation of it up there. But I believe its accurate.

Actually, let me verify it. Hold on.....

tick...tock...tick...tock. :thumbs:

OK.

Here it is from the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura"...




If thats not having, and then programming, robots, I'd like to know what is.


http://www.mbrem123.com/calvinism/elec1.php

Don't see us though as robots..
See us being broken beings, that God decided to fix/repair

And NONE of those elected by God were 'forced" to believe, they did it because they chose to exercise their faith and place int in Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Alive in Christ]

Luke...

You obviously are totally unqualified to speak on this matter because that is not at all what any Calvinist has EVER believed.

No one who has spent two hours in theology 101 would accuse Calvinists of that.

Your issue isnt with me. Its with the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura". I went there and quoted from their website, in the area where they explain calvinistic "election".

Here is a link.

Go over their and straiten them boys out...


http://www.mbrem123.com/calvinism/elec1.php

 

[Alive in Christ]

JesusFan....

And NONE of those elected by God were 'forced" to believe, they did it because they chose to exercise their faith and place int in Lord Jesus Christ!

Where is that, in this material from the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura"?

They quote from Berkhof, Systematic Theology ,and The Canons of Dort. Nothing about people freely choosing Christ anywhere...

(bolding mine)

Election Defined

"That eternal act of God whereby He, in His sovereign good pleasure, and on the account of no foreseen merit in them, chooses a certain number of men to be the recipients of special grace and eternal salvation" (Berkhof, Systematic Theology , P.114).

The Canons of Dort state:
"Election is the unchangeable purpose of God, whereby, before the foundation of the world, He hath, out of mere grace, according to the sovereign good pleasure of His own will, chosen, from the whole human race, which had fallen through their own fault, from their primitive state of rectitude, into sin and destruction, a certain number of persons to redemption in Christ, whom He from eternity appointed the Mediator and Head of the elect, and foundation of salvation."
By election, then, Calvinists mean:

(1) Out of fallen humanity God chose certain persons unto salvation. God elects people.

(2) The number of God's elect is fixed.

(3) God does not elect individuals based on foreseen merit of any kind, including faith. Election is an act of God's sovereign choice.

(4) God's election and calling are invincible.

(5) The purpose and motive of God's election are His glory, "To the praise of His glorious grace!"

 

[JesusFan]

JesusFan....



Where is that, in this material from the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura"?

They quote from Berkhof, Systematic Theology ,and The Canons of Dort. Nothing about people freely choosing Christ anywhere...

(bolding mine)

that is REFORMED Determinit Strictly "high camp" calvinism though...

Quote there IS indeed accurate, its just that there are differing shades to Calvinism...

there are reformed/baptist cals hold to determinite "high" version of cal
regeneration preceeding faith in Christ, causes it
Supra
some EXTREMES here hold that one can be regenrated by God, may or may not place faith in jesus, still saved and in heaven!

There are baptist cals hold that faith either preceeds regeneration, or at same time in process Moderate cals
ifra

So depends on which camp being addressed and speaking with!

 

[asterisktom]

deleted. (Responding to the wrong person)