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fallacies of "non-cals"

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Luke2427, May 24, 2011.

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  1. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Jesusfan...

    No dought about that! :laugh:

    I agree. There are indeed *fruit loops* in both camps.

    AiC
     
    #61 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  2. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    You didn't respond to my argument regarding the inclusive aspects of the terms being employed. Instead, you continue to restate things that we agree upon...such as:

    That misses the point Luke. Try to follow the argument instead of saying the same thing over and over again. I'm not attempting to argue that "world/all" always means every individual. The point is that these terms, like in the passage which says, "all men everywhere" are inclusive in their intent. You affirm that inclusivity and universality in cases such as the gospel being preached because it doesn't affect your system, but in verses about atonement and God's desires you change your methods. That is inconsistent. That is not an opinion, that is a fact.

    I think Allan summed it up quite well when he wrote:

     
    #62 Skandelon, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  3. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    I thought you affirmed God's love for everyone in another thread? So, why presume otherwise with regard to John 3:16? Calvin didn't, why do you?
     
    #63 Skandelon, May 25, 2011
  4. Skandelon

    Skandelon <b>Moderator</b>

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    So, what's your point? Is it that God doesn't love them or that he doesn't give them a choice, because I thought Calvinists affirmed both God's love for mankind and his allowing them to choose according to their nature?

    Are you sure you know the doctrine you are attempting to defend?
     
    #64 Skandelon, May 25, 2011
  5. rbell

    rbell Active Member

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    Wow. These kinds of statements are what makes it nearly impossible to have fruitful discussions on the issues.

    Particularly if one broadens definitions of "Arminian" to mean "one whose soteriology differs from mine in any substantive fashion," or "one who doesn't go as far with Calvinistic positions as I do" (which I have a sneaky suspicion may be happening...but then again, I could be wrong).

    Anyhow...carry on. I'll make the popcorn.
     
    #65 rbell, May 25, 2011
  6. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    He is only given them what they want. God is giving them what they have chosen.


    Whats ridiculous is the calvinistic idea that God decided at the begining.....

    "These billions over here I decree to be saved and inherit heaven."

    "But those billions over there...tough luck...I decree to be doomed to hell.

    HOW IN THE WORLD does that glorify God? How in the world does square with the truth that God is love, and that He is a God of grace, and mercy, and justice and longsuffering???

    It doesnt.
     
    #66 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  7. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Better question...

    why should/would God decide to save ANY from a fallen race, whose goal is to basically "play god" and create religions/god in their own image?

    The Cross forever shows us that God is Love AND He is Holy, and the method that he chooses to use to reddem is His plan and purpose..

    Thought for you to ponder...

    What IF the number saved by God election is actually greater than total amount that would have accepted Christ "by own free will response?"

    Whoever gets saved does NOT deserve it, and God will do it!
     
    #67 JesusFan, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  8. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    JesusFan...

    Because "God is love" and it is not His will that ANY should perish, but that ALL have the opportunity to inherit eternal life.

    Agreed

    Pure speculation.

    But I would venture to say that God would be more pleased if 10 made it to heaven because they chose to recieve Christ, rather than 50 billion who did so because God programmed those 50 billion like robots.


    The father of the wayword prodigal son gave that son the great party, rather than the son who never left.

    Agreed.
     
    #68 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  9. Amy.G

    Amy.G New Member

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    Does it make you "feel" better to say that God doesn't love them and allows them to go to hell?



    Listen, people go to hell not for a lack of love from God, but because they chose to reject it.
     
    #69 Amy.G, May 25, 2011
  10. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    have to understand that we do NOT see God having us as His "robots" though...

    More like a Father who sees a Wayword son who is determined to keep on going other way from Him whenever he tries to help them to get back on the "broad and narrow road"
    So the Fathers decides to bring the Son back to Himself, as the son cannot on his own find his way back Home..

    So we being the receipts of the fathers grace and love are REALLY appreciatitive to Him, as we got Grace we never derserved, and love Him because he first loved us, and stepped in to make it so that we could actually love him back in return!
     
    #70 JesusFan, May 25, 2011
  11. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Calvin has nothing to do with it. It is what the Word of God clearly says there.

    Luther and Calvin were tools in the hands of God to get the Church back TO the Word of God but the fact that this verse refers to US is as plain as anything that is taught anywhere in the Word of God.

    Any clear thinking person can see it for himself.
     
    #71 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  12. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Brother, I am wedded to Romans 11:36.
     
    #72 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  13. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    Yes, inclusive of a small minority of the human race.

    Just as Romans 1:8 uses "kosmos" to include a very small percentage of the human race.

    The elect occupy a very small percentage of the human race from all over the whole world from all the nations of the world.

    To push these terms to be inclusive of MOST of the human race or every single human being in the human race is to abuse the Scriptures to support one's doctrine.


    Question: am going to get another warning from you about this post too?
     
    #73 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  14. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    JesusFan...

    Excuse me??


    The doctrine of calvinistic "election" teaches that God looked down the corridors of time, saw all that would take place, and then decided to "give" the "gift" of faith in Christ to certain people, while withholding that gift from everyone else.

    Do you deny that?

    Thats just my articulation of it up there. But I believe its accurate.

    Actually, let me verify it. Hold on.....

    tick...tock...tick...tock. :thumbs:

    OK.

    Here it is from the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura"...


    If thats not having, and then programming, robots, I'd like to know what is.


    http://www.mbrem123.com/calvinism/elec1.php
     
    #74 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  15. Luke2427

    Luke2427 Active Member

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    You obviously are totally unqualified to speak on this matter because that is not at all what any Calvinist has EVER believed.

    No one who has spent two hours in theology 101 would accuse Calvinists of that.
     
    #75 Luke2427, May 25, 2011
  16. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    Don't see us though as robots..
    See us being broken beings, that God decided to fix/repair

    And NONE of those elected by God were 'forced" to believe, they did it because they chose to exercise their faith and place int in Lord Jesus Christ!
     
    #76 JesusFan, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  17. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    Luke...

    Your issue isnt with me. Its with the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura". I went there and quoted from their website, in the area where they explain calvinistic "election".

    Here is a link.

    Go over their and straiten them boys out...


    http://www.mbrem123.com/calvinism/elec1.php
     
    #77 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  18. Alive in Christ

    Alive in Christ New Member

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    JesusFan....

    Where is that, in this material from the Reformed website "Sola Scriptura"?

    They quote from Berkhof, Systematic Theology ,and The Canons of Dort. Nothing about people freely choosing Christ anywhere...

    (bolding mine)

     
    #78 Alive in Christ, May 25, 2011
  19. JesusFan

    JesusFan Well-Known Member

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    that is REFORMED Determinit Strictly "high camp" calvinism though...

    Quote there IS indeed accurate, its just that there are differing shades to Calvinism...

    there are reformed/baptist cals hold to determinite "high" version of cal
    regeneration preceeding faith in Christ, causes it
    Supra
    some EXTREMES here hold that one can be regenrated by God, may or may not place faith in jesus, still saved and in heaven!

    There are baptist cals hold that faith either preceeds regeneration, or at same time in process Moderate cals
    ifra

    So depends on which camp being addressed and speaking with!
     
    #79 JesusFan, May 25, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 25, 2011
  20. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    #80 asterisktom, May 25, 2011
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