Zecheriah 14 is it literal or figurative what proves it

[revmwc]

You have a very slight problem with your theory.

You left out Luke’s, 21 chapter, parallel passage. He adds additional information for the Gentile reader that the Jewish readers didn’t need. He tells us what the desolation is—armies surrounding Jerusalem. Therefore we know the holy place is Jerusalem and the desolators are armies.


Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem

20"But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people.24They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, andJerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Well so much for the temple theory I guess. I’m not sure how you derive at how I’m suppose to be calling Christ a liar—want to explain that one a little more.

Jesus predicted the siege of Jerusalem I see it says in verse 20. 20 . But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know and understand that its desolation has come near. Verse 20 speaks of the 70 A.D. destruction. The city would be made desolate and his prophecy came to be.
No where did Jesus say and here you will see the aboniantion that maketh desolate. He said the city would be made desolate. Lest we forget Jesus words again here is what he said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, "15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Both terms say standing in where it should not Daniel said it would be Set up" not the temple destroyed so again you are mis-interpreting scripture in Luke 21:20.

Jesus said in Matthew passage that when the abomination was standing where it ought not that great tirbulation would follow and then He would reign. Revelation says they will make an image to the beast for everyone to worship him, that image will be in the temple at Jerusalem as Daniel and Jesus call it the abomination of desolation.

There are two more wars predicted in scripture in which Israel is seen as going through.
Ezekial 38 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Gog and Magog have yet to attack Isreael with the other nations. They come against unwalled cities, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv are unwalled today. These cities will be compassed about and people as Jesus said in Luke will flee to the mountains until God rains down on these nations in the Valley of Hamon. This is not yet fulfilled

Then we see the battle of Armigeddon in Revelation after that battle we will see according to Jesus Prophecy through the writer John, Jesus set up His Kingdom on earth a thousand years.

 

[revmwc]

My point was that there are a lot of metaphors just like what you have in Zechariah 14. Metaphors that could not have been fulfilled literally.

I realize that futurists love to zero on this particular passage in Zechariah, but they overlook many of the other metaphors verses elsewhere in the prophetic books and elsewhere.

They also overlook the unifying phrase "in that day" in Zechariah. The nineteen occurrences of that phrase need to be considered together. The Bible views these all as happening in the same time period. We should too.

Well you didn't present any metaphors in what you gave me, God made the earth molton and moved the geological make up of the earth in the judgement of Noah's day.

In that Day, that would be a future day. A day when theLord will reign as Messiah (King) will reign over all the earth (vs 9) If you take it as the same time period is the end of the tribulation and entering the Kingdom age. We see the end of the tribulation and the Kingdom age in that day.

 

[revmwc]

Not at all. Don’t put those words in my mouth. I’m saying that Christ is fighting against the Jews who rejected him—he is coming in judgment on them in 70 AD. His people are Christians and they have left the building as it were. Read my Luke passage to revmwc above and you can see where Jesus told his people to leave Jerusalem.

Again, you seem too lazy to make a point with scriptural references—Is your opinion inspired by the Holy Spirit and is your authority on a par with the bible?

Revelation 19: 7 shows the Bride to be with the Lamb when he comes to do battle. So He isn't fighting for the church at that point she is with Him clothed in white raiment. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.
9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God

In Ezekial 39 we see Christ (God) fighting for His people Israel against Gog and it's allies.
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel

By these two passages it appears He will still fight for Israel and He will be the Holy One in Israel.

 

[lastday]

Preterism can't explain 1290 days at the End of Time which Jesus said will be cut short.
There is no logical explanation until these days are recognized as literal days ending with the 7th Trumpet proclamation that "God's wrath has come" when armies are "gathered to Armageddon" and, as Zechariah reports, "Messiah will come with all the Saints" to destroy those who are destroying the earth and to judge and reward the Saints.
Mel Miller

 

[Logos1]

This brings to mind a story about a Christmas tree and a pony

Jesus predicted the siege of Jerusalem I see it says in verse 20. 20 . But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know and understand that its desolation has come near. Verse 20 speaks of the 70 A.D. destruction. The city would be made desolate and his prophecy came to be.
No where did Jesus say and here you will see the aboniantion that maketh desolate. He said the city would be made desolate. Lest we forget Jesus words again here is what he said in Matthew 24 and Mark 13, "15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

Both terms say standing in where it should not Daniel said it would be Set up" not the temple destroyed so again you are mis-interpreting scripture in Luke 21:20.

Jesus said in Matthew passage that when the abomination was standing where it ought not that great tirbulation would follow and then He would reign. Revelation says they will make an image to the beast for everyone to worship him, that image will be in the temple at Jerusalem as Daniel and Jesus call it the abomination of desolation.

There are two more wars predicted in scripture in which Israel is seen as going through.
Ezekial 38 9 Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
11 And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
12To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the midst of the land.

Gog and Magog have yet to attack Isreael with the other nations. They come against unwalled cities, Jerusalem, Tel Aviv are unwalled today. These cities will be compassed about and people as Jesus said in Luke will flee to the mountains until God rains down on these nations in the Valley of Hamon. This is not yet fulfilled

Then we see the battle of Armigeddon in Revelation after that battle we will see according to Jesus Prophecy through the writer John, Jesus set up His Kingdom on earth a thousand years.

Um right revmwc. I stand amazed in the presence.

All I know is that Christ came in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That the Babylon of Revelation is Jerusalem and somewhere in that post there has got to be a pony.

 

[revmwc]

Um right revmwc. I stand amazed in the presence.

All I know is that Christ came in judgment of Jerusalem in 70 AD. That the Babylon of Revelation is Jerusalem and somewhere in that post there has got to be a pony.

God sent the Roman legions upon Jerusalem and the nation Israel to take them the second time into captivity as the Assyrians did the first time. God brought them out of the first captivity, and He will bring them out of the second one.

 

[asterisktom]

I will ask you the same question I asked someone else. Does the word reconciled have the meaning of having known someone in an intimate manner being separated and then coming together again?

I'm not sure where the idea of "reconciled" comes in in this discussion. There must be something I am missing.

1 Cor. 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

Interestingly they had the same fathers.

Yes, they were the "fathers" of the Gentiles because of the adoption of those Gentiles into the family and commonwealth of Israel.

For space just a few high spots. From Ezekiel 36 And I scattered them among the heathen,(Gentiles)
And when they entered unto the heathen,(Gentiles) whither they went, they profaned my holy name. Would these be παρεπίδημος (strangers) among the gentiles? 1 Peter 1:1

I think they are, the "dispersion".

Are these the same not my people as in Hosea?
E36 again Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; I do not [this] for your sakes, O house of Israel, but for mine holy name's sake, which ye have profaned among the heathen, whither ye went. And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I [am] the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
Does this mean all at this time? From Jer. 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion: Are these the same as not my people in Hosea? Reconciliation? Who is Zion?

The "one of a city", "two of a family" (unusual proportion there!) I take as the remnant of the New Covenant. There are several verses like this, especially in that middle section of Jeremiah.

The Zion of these passages (as opposed to some of the earlier historical Zion references) already points to the spiritual Zion, New Covenant believers. I am in the process of studying out the "Zion" and spiritual Jerusalem passages in Isaiah. So far I have 14 articles. If interested, you can find them here:
http://asterisktom.xanga.com/730209743/index-on-isaiah-articles-with-comments/

Compare above with Acts 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles,(Heathen) to take out of them a people for his name. Is this still going on or is it past? What happens after this taking out a people for his name? Sake?

I believe it is still ongoing. As history progresses, and as physical countries and empires come and go, the spiritual Zion just keeps growing.

V16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
Why?

This is still the same topic, only under a different description.

V17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.

There is more I wanted to add here, but something else just came up.

 

[asterisktom]

Preterism can't explain 1290 days at the End of Time which Jesus said will be cut short.
Mel Miller

And Preterists can't explain why unicorns, ten times out of nine, have blue eyes.

The reason for both is the same.

 

[percho]

I'm not sure where the idea of "reconciled" comes in in this discussion. There must be something I am missing. I'm not sure but lean to those in NT being reconciled are the only people God knew in the OT of all the families of the earth.

Yes, they were the "fathers" of the Gentiles because of the adoption of those Gentiles into the family and commonwealth of Israel. Not sure that is the context.

I think they are, the "dispersion". AS in those God scattered in Ezek 36 and Amos 9

The "one of a city", "two of a family" (unusual proportion there!) I take as the remnant of the New Covenant. There are several verses like this, especially in that middle section of Jeremiah. Electing the remnant now all Israel and the residue of men later?

The Zion of these passages (as opposed to some of the earlier historical Zion references) already points to the spiritual Zion, New Covenant believers. I am in the process of studying out the "Zion" and spiritual Jerusalem passages in Isaiah. So far I have 14 articles. If interested, you can find them here:
http://asterisktom.xanga.com/730209743/index-on-isaiah-articles-with-comments/ Are we put into the church by the Spirit? The church being heavenly Jerusalem and or Jerusalem above the mother of all Zion who in one day will give birth to a nation by resurrection from the dead. Course here I think you believe the to have happened spiritually?

I believe it is still ongoing. As history progresses, and as physical countries and empires come and go, the spiritual Zion just keeps growing.The very reason I do not think the birth above has happened yet.

This is still the same topic, only under a different description.

There is more I wanted to add here, but something else just came up.

Thanks Tom as you know we disagree on some things but I will read your blog. As a matter of fact I think I have questioned you with something in it in the pass.

Have a great day in the Lord.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

If Zech 14 is supposed to have reference to AD70 there is a pretty major problem.

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

This was not the fate either of Jerusalem or the Church after AD70. Jerusalem was again the scene of rebellion in AD132-6, the 'Bar Cochba' rebellion, during which there was plenty of 'utter destruction' and after which no Jew or Christian was allowed to come within 50 miles of Jerusalem. If Jerusalem was 'safely inhabited,' it was by pagans.

If it is thought that the prophecy refers to the Church, the years after AD70 were by no means a time of safety. Persecution, which under Nero appears to have been restricted to Rome, would soon go Empire-wide.

Steve

 

[Logos1]

If Zech 14 is supposed to have reference to AD70 there is a pretty major problem.
....
If it is thought that the prophecy refers to the Church, the years after AD70 were by no means a time of safety. Persecution, which under Nero appears to have been restricted to Rome, would soon go Empire-wide.

Steve

To apply Zechariah 14 to the church you would have to overlook all the Jewish related aspects of the chapter (Jerusalem, festivals, etc).

Don Preston makes a comparison between Zechariah 14 and the Olivet discourse and also to Revelation. It's hard to see these unmistakeable similarities and not realize they are describing the same event. Obviously you would have to think the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are about the Church to think Zechariah 14 is about the Church.

Of course since these all relate to the same event and Old Covenant Jerusalem fades into history in 70AD as all things are fulfilled this helps the reader to be sure that the destruction of Jerusalem is the topic at hand not some future battle of Christianity.

Particularly uniting is "E" since these are the only times an event is described as known only to the Lord (that I've been able to ever find reference to) in the bible.

Here is a summary of Preston's comparisons.

Match the letters up in each category:

Zechariah 14
A. Siege of Jerusalem 1-2
B. Day of the Lord 1, 5
C. Coming with his holy ones 5
D. Jews led away captive into the nations 2
E. Day known only to the Lord 7

Olivet Discourse
A. Siege of Jerusalem Mt. 24:2f
B. Coming of the Son of Man 24:30-31
C. Coming with his angels 24:31
D. Jews led away captive into the nations, Luke 21:24
E. Day known only to the Lord 24-36

Don also does a great job comparing Zechariah 14 to Revelation

Zechariah
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints, 14:5
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 14:4-5
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at siege of Jerusalem, 14:1-5
D. Time of light, 14:7
E. River of living waters, 14:8
F. The Lord shall be King over the earth, 14:9
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14:10
H. No more curse, curse removed, 14:11
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 14:14
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 14:16-20

Revelation
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints 14:14f; 19:11f
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 6:12-17; 11:13; 16
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at judgment of city "where the Lord was crucified" 11:8-13
D. Time of light, 21:23
E. River of life, 22:1
F. The Lord is King of the earth, 11:15; 19:16; 22:3
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14, 21
H. No more curse, curse removed, 22:3
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 21:24
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 7:9-17* (vs. 17 also has the fountain of living waters)

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Hello Logos1,
In my post, which you quoted rather selectively, I cited one particular verse from Zech 14, , namely v11

11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

Could you explain to me how that verse fits in with Zech 14 referring to the destruction of Jerusalem, please?

Thanks.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

If Zech 14 is supposed to have reference to AD70 there is a pretty major problem.

quote:
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

This was not the fate either of Jerusalem or the Church after AD70. Jerusalem was again the scene of rebellion in AD132-6, the 'Bar Cochba' rebellion, during which there was plenty of 'utter destruction' and after which no Jew or Christian was allowed to come within 50 miles of Jerusalem. If Jerusalem was 'safely inhabited,' it was by pagans.

If it is thought that the prophecy refers to the Church, the years after AD70 were by no means a time of safety. Persecution, which under Nero appears to have been restricted to Rome, would soon go Empire-wide.

Steve

The safely inhabited Jerusalem is to be taken in the same sense as Christ's words to His disciples, (BTW also in a Jerusalem eschatological context) Luke 21:18:

"But not a hair of your head shall be lost."

The extended passage gives us the proper spiritual meaning, 16-19:

"16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls."

This is the same with the Jerusalem of this Zechariah passage. Spiritual Jerusalem, the Zion of God, will secure. Not a hair of their head will be lost.

Probably 90% of the objections futurists have to Preterism (and to a lesser degree Amill) stems from the misreading of a spiritual passage into a concrete literal sense.

 

[asterisktom]

Well you didn't present any metaphors in what you gave me, God made the earth molton and moved the geological make up of the earth in the judgement of Noah's day.

In that Day, that would be a future day. A day when theLord will reign as Messiah (King) will reign over all the earth (vs 9) If you take it as the same time period is the end of the tribulation and entering the Kingdom age. We see the end of the tribulation and the Kingdom age in that day.

Are you sure? Take a look at some of the other events of this Day:

Zech 13:

1 “In that day a fountain shall be opened for the house of David and for the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.

This happened at Calvary. In fact there are several cross-references elsewhere from Zech. that tie directly with the Cross, most notably the spear that pierced Christ's side.

2 “It shall be in that day,” says the LORD of hosts, “that I will cut off the names of the idols from the land, and they shall no longer be remembered. I will also cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to depart from the land.

Do the Jews "remember" their idols today? No, they don't. This clearly cannot be future.

7“ Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
Against the Man who is My Companion,”
Says the LORD of hosts.


“ Strike the Shepherd,
And the sheep will be scattered;"

Specifically quoted in the Gospels on the night of Gethsemane.

"Then I will turn My hand against the little ones."

Fulfilled in the Book of Acts, when the general persecution of Christians started.

These are just a few of the references from Zech. 13. More could easily be found that show that this Day is not some future event, but has its roots in God's dealing with the 1st-century Jews, and with His inaugurating the "Nation born in a day", the Zion of God, the Church, which includes Jews and Gentiles.

There were actually two fountains opened in this Day: the one mentioned here in Zechariah, the blood of Christ for our cleansing. There is also the imagery of the Living Water, the Holy Spirit, springing forth from the very place where God was satisfied, the Temple. This is the water that comes up from the Temple in the last chapters of Ezekiel. Christ told His disciples that those who believe in Him will have this ling water springing from their innermost being.

There we have it, the Holy Spirit's, life-giving power, both corporately and personally prefigured.

Both these fountains come from Christ, His death on the Cross. This is the purpose of the water and blood flowing from His pierced side.

Futurists have a choice: They can either wait and fixate on hoped for literal fulfillments - that will never come - or they can draw strength and encouragement from the spiritual truth from these all-too-often neglected passages of blessings and empowerment which we have right now to live as citizens in a very present Kingdom.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The safely inhabited Jerusalem is to be taken in the same sense as Christ's words to His disciples, (BTW also in a Jerusalem eschatological context) Luke 21:18:

"But not a hair of your head shall be lost."

The extended passage gives us the proper spiritual meaning, 16-19:

"16 You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 17 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. 18 But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 19 By your patience possess your souls."

I'm sorry, but I see no mention of Jerusalem in Luke 21:16-19. I want to know how Jerusalem, which was destroyed in AD 70, is inhabited again after that date in safety.
Preterists insist that all Biblical prophecy refers to the destruction of Jerusalem which was a literal, historical event, but when it is pointed out that the facts don't fit, they say it has a spiritual meaning. We can all play at that game and make the Bible into a wax nose that we press into any shape we want. Is the Jerusalem that was destroyed in AD 70 a literal one a spiritual one?

This is the same with the Jerusalem of this Zechariah passage. Spiritual Jerusalem, the Zion of God, will secure. Not a hair of their [sic] head will be lost.

Well Amen! But I thought that all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70. Is Zechariah an exception to this? If it is AD 70, then Jerusalem is the literal one; if it refers to a future date, the preterist system breaks down.

Probably 90% of the objections futurists have to Preterism (and to a lesser degree Amill) stems from the misreading of a spiritual passage into a concrete literal sense.

The problem Preterists have is that they try to have it both ways. It is literal when they want it to be and 'spiritual' when they need it to be. I am no Dispensationalist, but at least they try to be consistent.

Steve

 

[asterisktom]

I'm sorry, but I see no mention of Jerusalem in Luke 21:16-19.

The point was not whether Jerusalem is in this passage or not (It is, but we'll get to that in a minute). The point was that the protection of Jerusalem you were speaking of was the same as God's protecting the hair of His saints. Either way, to be slavishly literal is to miss the point.

And, yes, Jerusalem is very much the topic. Just look at the verses just before and just after the ones I quoted.

I want to know how Jerusalem, which was destroyed in AD 70, is inhabited again after that date in safety.

:tonofbricks:See my earlier point in the previous post.

Preterists insist that all Biblical prophecy refers to the destruction of Jerusalem which was a literal, historical event, but when it is pointed out that the facts don't fit, they say it has a spiritual meaning.

That is not what we do, but I am not going to go try to convince you otherwise.

We can all play at that game and make the Bible into a wax nose that we press into any shape we want.

Martin, I have tried to be respectful with you. But it is a two-way street. I went to some trouble getting that previous post together, but from now on I am not going bother - at least on your account - if all you see is a wax job.

Is the Jerusalem that was destroyed in AD 70 a literal one a spiritual one?

You are not even making sense.

Well Amen! But I thought that all prophecy was fulfilled in AD 70. Is Zechariah an exception to this? If it is AD 70, then Jerusalem is the literal one; if it refers to a future date, the preterist system breaks down.

The problem Preterists have is that they try to have it both ways. It is literal when they want it to be and 'spiritual' when they need it to be. I am no Dispensationalist, but at least they try to be consistent.

Steve

Consistent? And this is a good thing? Consistency of interpretation (spiritual or literal) would be wrong, seeing that there are both kinds of passages. I assume you agree.

And, no, Preterists do not "try to have it both ways". We do not try anything. I was a futurist for thirty-three years. I did not have an emotional investment in Preterists that tempted me to twist verses in order to safeguard an interpretation. However, when presented with first Amill and then Preterism, I did at first have to battle against my prior futurism. So your impugning motives is totally off the mark.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

The point was not whether Jerusalem is in this passage or not (It is, but we'll get to that in a minute).

We never did get to it, did we?

 

[asterisktom]

We never did get to it, did we?

Yes, we did. I had written:

And, yes, Jerusalem is very much the topic. Just look at the verses just before and just after the ones I quoted.

I see I merited the Caesarean thumbs down.

 

[asterisktom]

To apply Zechariah 14 to the church you would have to overlook all the Jewish related aspects of the chapter (Jerusalem, festivals, etc).

Don Preston makes a comparison between Zechariah 14 and the Olivet discourse and also to Revelation. It's hard to see these unmistakeable similarities and not realize they are describing the same event. Obviously you would have to think the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are about the Church to think Zechariah 14 is about the Church.

Of course since these all relate to the same event and Old Covenant Jerusalem fades into history in 70AD as all things are fulfilled this helps the reader to be sure that the destruction of Jerusalem is the topic at hand not some future battle of Christianity.

Particularly uniting is "E" since these are the only times an event is described as known only to the Lord (that I've been able to ever find reference to) in the bible.

Here is a summary of Preston's comparisons.

Match the letters up in each category:

Zechariah 14
A. Siege of Jerusalem 1-2
B. Day of the Lord 1, 5
C. Coming with his holy ones 5
D. Jews led away captive into the nations 2
E. Day known only to the Lord 7

Olivet Discourse
A. Siege of Jerusalem Mt. 24:2f
B. Coming of the Son of Man 24:30-31
C. Coming with his angels 24:31
D. Jews led away captive into the nations, Luke 21:24
E. Day known only to the Lord 24-36

Don also does a great job comparing Zechariah 14 to Revelation

Zechariah
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints, 14:5
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 14:4-5
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at siege of Jerusalem, 14:1-5
D. Time of light, 14:7
E. River of living waters, 14:8
F. The Lord shall be King over the earth, 14:9
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14:10
H. No more curse, curse removed, 14:11
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 14:14
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 14:16-20

Revelation
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints 14:14f; 19:11f
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 6:12-17; 11:13; 16
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at judgment of city "where the Lord was crucified" 11:8-13
D. Time of light, 21:23
E. River of life, 22:1
F. The Lord is King of the earth, 11:15; 19:16; 22:3
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14, 21
H. No more curse, curse removed, 22:3
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 21:24
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 7:9-17* (vs. 17 also has the fountain of living waters)

Thanks for this chart here, Logos. I came across it earlier but lost it. Also, in my earlier studies in Isaiah I had a partial chart that tied verses from that book with Revelation. For that matter, one could also be made with Zechariah and Isaiah as well.

The bottom line is that the more one studies these passages with the foundational OT passages in mind the more able we are to get a better fix on those same terms in the NT. A case in point is the New Heavens and New Earth. Having read this term in its original setting, and then accounting for descriptive and identifying cross-references, we are able to see the term as the NT writers intended it, - an inauguration of New Life in Christ, where Christ makes all things new. Specifically, it means a permanent turning away from obsolete and deprecated Judaism.

 

[revmwc]

To apply Zechariah 14 to the church you would have to overlook all the Jewish related aspects of the chapter (Jerusalem, festivals, etc).

Don Preston makes a comparison between Zechariah 14 and the Olivet discourse and also to Revelation. It's hard to see these unmistakeable similarities and not realize they are describing the same event. Obviously you would have to think the Olivet Discourse and Revelation are about the Church to think Zechariah 14 is about the Church.

Of course since these all relate to the same event and Old Covenant Jerusalem fades into history in 70AD as all things are fulfilled this helps the reader to be sure that the destruction of Jerusalem is the topic at hand not some future battle of Christianity.

Particularly uniting is "E" since these are the only times an event is described as known only to the Lord (that I've been able to ever find reference to) in the bible.

Here is a summary of Preston's comparisons.

Match the letters up in each category:

Zechariah 14
A. Siege of Jerusalem 1-2
B. Day of the Lord 1, 5
C. Coming with his holy ones 5
D. Jews led away captive into the nations 2
E. Day known only to the Lord 7

Olivet Discourse
A. Siege of Jerusalem Mt. 24:2f
B. Coming of the Son of Man 24:30-31
C. Coming with his angels 24:31
D. Jews led away captive into the nations, Luke 21:24
E. Day known only to the Lord 24-36

Don also does a great job comparing Zechariah 14 to Revelation

Zechariah
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints, 14:5
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 14:4-5
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at siege of Jerusalem, 14:1-5
D. Time of light, 14:7
E. River of living waters, 14:8
F. The Lord shall be King over the earth, 14:9
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14:10
H. No more curse, curse removed, 14:11
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 14:14
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 14:16-20

Revelation
A. Coming of the Lord with His Saints 14:14f; 19:11f
B. Earthquake at the Day of the Lord, 6:12-17; 11:13; 16
C. Earthquake and Coming of the Lord at judgment of city "where the Lord was crucified" 11:8-13
D. Time of light, 21:23
E. River of life, 22:1
F. The Lord is King of the earth, 11:15; 19:16; 22:3
G. Exaltation of Zion, 14, 21
H. No more curse, curse removed, 22:3
I. Nations coming to New Jerusalem with their wealth, 21:24
J. Nations observing Feast of Tabernacles, 7:9-17* (vs. 17 also has the fountain of living waters)

Who is Don Preston? The founder of preterism teaching or some other person?