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Zecheriah 14 is it literal or figurative what proves it

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by revmwc, May 26, 2011.

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  1. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Don Preston is a very good Preterist writer and debater, but not the founder of it. I would say who that is, but I already have my hands full! :saint:
     
    #41 asterisktom, May 30, 2011
  2. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    That's it, is it? I was expecting a little more. OK. Luke 21:8. 'Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, "I am He," and "The time has drawn near." Therefore do not go after them.' Our Lord is telling His disciples not to go after those who forecast His early return.
    Too right! If I were a moderator I would not allow Hyper-preterism on the board.

    Earlier you wrote:-
    A consistent hermeneutic is absolutely vital. Obviously it is possible to be consistently wrong, but playing fast and loose with the Scriptures is the hallmark of the false teacher.

    Steve
     
    #42 Martin Marprelate, May 30, 2011
  3. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Considering your first comments I was going to go into some detail as to just how those verses are pertinent. But then I read your snideries and decided that it is not worth my effort.

    It isn't like there aren't others here who will appreciate intelligent, respectful, biblical discussion. Why even waste your time, Steve, discussing doctrine with a false teacher like me? (rhetorical, no need to answer.)
     
    #43 asterisktom, May 30, 2011
  4. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I will continue to call out the absurdities of Hyper-preterism as I have time and if permitted by the mods, in order to try and prevent others being deceived by it.

    Steve
     
    #44 Martin Marprelate, May 30, 2011
  5. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Zechariah 14
    A. Siege of Jerusalem 1-2 The Seige of Jerusalem as seen in Ezekial 38:2 Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
    3And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
    4And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
    5Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
    6Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
    7Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
    8After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.
    So we see these nations coming against Israel, this hasn't happened. What happens to them?
    Ezekial 39: 2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:
    3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
    4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
    5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.
    6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
    7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

    So Gog and Magog with their alliance countries come against Israel and God turns them and the heathen will know that He is the Lord, the Holy one IN Israel.

    Revelation 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

    Not the same war, in this one the armies are gathered to fight against Him that sat on the Horse and against His army. They are prepared to fight Christ at His 2nd coming. The Battles that takes place in Ezekial 38 and 39 the armies come to take a spoil. Christ returns at the end of revelation to defeat the Beast, the False Prophet and Satan with their armies. Ezekial 38 the Lord fights against those who are coming against Israel and He defeats them mirrors Zechariah 14. The Jews will be 7 months burying the dead Ezekial tells us, this has never happened.

    B. Day of the Lord 1, 5 The day of the Lord what does that term mean
    The DAy of the Lord means the day of His return, here in Zecheriah 14, His secind coming, according to Preterist that occured in 70 A.D. but according to Revelation 19 it is yet to come, since revelation is dated by almost every scholar as 95 A.D.
    C. Coming with his holy ones 5
    Christ returns with His Bride, that would be a sign that the events of 1 Corinthians 15 and 1 Thessallonians 4 have occured and the church has been in Heaven with Him.
    D. Jews led away captive into the nations 2
    The Jews were lead in 70 A.D. into captivity until the feast of in gathering is fulfilled. Exodus 23: 16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field
    E. Day known only to the Lord 7 Jesus said only the father knows the day and hour of His return.

    Olivet Discourse
    A. Siege of Jerusalem Mt. 24:2f Matthew 24:2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. Jesus short term prophecy concerning the destruction of Israel and the Temple being destroyed. Occured 70 A.D. when Rome, not Gog and Magog came and destroyed Israel. Keep in mind for a prophet to be a true prophet He had to make both short term (here) and long term prophecies. If His short term failed He was considered a false prophet, Jesus short term passed the test.


    B. Coming of the Son of Man 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
    Notice again Reveletion 19:19 the armies are gathered to fight against the one who is on the Horse and His armies, Christ is refering to His second coming and gathering those saved in the tribulation to go into the kingdom age.

    C. Coming with his angels 24:31
    His angels come and gather those who have died in the tribulation and those living at the time. They are fgathered for this, Revelation 20: 4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. So the angels gather the elect to go into the Kingdom with Christ.


    D. Jews led away captive into the nations, Luke 21:24
    The Jews were lead in 70 A.D. into captivity until the feast of in gathering is fulfilled. Exodus 23: 16 And the feast of harvest, the firstfruits of thy labours, which thou hast sown in the field: and the feast of ingathering, which is in the end of the year, when thou hast gathered in thy labours out of the field

    E. Day known only to the Lord 24-36 Only the Father knows when the return will happen.

    Don't see anywhere in this where 70 A.D. and Christ return for His Church and His 2nd Advent are connected, it proves there are sevaral events yet to be fufilled for Israel, the biggest thing being the last 3 feast being literally fulfilled as the first four were.
     
    #45 revmwc, May 30, 2011
  6. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    You do that. This ping-pong table has two sides though.
     
    #46 asterisktom, May 30, 2011
  7. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Context is important. You are one to just take a snip of a verse and then make an unwarranted application from that little snippet. Notice the all-important setting. Here is Luke 21:5-12

    5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said,

    6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.

    7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

    What are the "these things"? Actually, two overlapping things. Jesus is referring to those visible things that they were so impressed with, the great stones and awesome grandeur of the temple. The disciples' "these things", having heard their Master's shocking announcement, refers to those events He warned of - the destruction of that very temple.

    This isn't hard to figure out. It would be easy, in fact, if we just wouldn't let our preconceptions get in our way. Jesus is talking about the destruction of the temple the disciple have right in front of them.

    8 And He said: “Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time has drawn near.’ Therefore do not go after them.

    If you read Josephus you know that this is exactly what happened, especially from the mid-40s right through the end of the siege of Jerusalem. In fact, the perhaps most cruel deception was right at the end, when many, expecting deliverance, were slain in the area next to the Court of the Gentiles.

    9 But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately.”

    10 Then He said to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.

    The Roman Empire was shaken in the 60s by outbreaks and rebellions everywhere. When many of these outlying regions saw that Rome was busy putting out these earlier fires they, too, figured that the time was opportune for them as well to be free of the Roman yoke.

    11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.

    This is also a matter of history.

    12 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name’s sake.

    And, like I said in an earlier post, this already happened in Acts.

    But notice: Christ said "You", The ones He was speaking to. The ones who had asked the question, who were so enamored with the temple. He did not say "Those those who will believe in Me through your word;" (as he did in John 17:20). No, He looked right at them, spoke pointedly to them.

    There is nothing in this passage that requires or even allows for a future fulfillment.

    You are not really very qualified to know what a false teacher looks like. In a previous thread, in your offensive against me, the very first assumed "proof" you had against me was the "creeds and Protestant confessions". That is not the way to spot a false teacher. Martin Luther - more of a Berean Martin than you are - was faulted in just the same way.

    No, to find the true hallmark of a false teacher you have to focus on the very thing that he falsifies, the Bible, and use it against him. Whole pertinent passages, not little snippets here and there.

    You haven't been doing that.
     
    #47 asterisktom, May 30, 2011
  8. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    Martin Marprelate, are you crazy? You want to end up on asterisktom's ignore list? That is the fate of any non-preterist that insists on the plain sense of Scripture, logic and historical fact in the matter. First you are told your theology stinks, then you are judged unqualified and finally you are deemed a false teacher. A simple three step elimination process. Doesn't matter that you have scripture on your side, no Sir. If you continue in your rebellion, the "list" may be your fate. My sense is you are right on the edge.

    asterisktom thinks that he has a friend in Josephus of all people. No where does Josephus write that Christ returned in AD 70, in fact he give scant press to the first coming of the Savior. And then there is that abomination that causes desolation in the temple in Jerusalem. No matter to asterisktom that this didn't happen in the first century as Jesus said it would, it's just a silly detail.

    Martin, just a warning, keep it up and you will end up where I'm at, that is on asterisktom's ignore list. I can tell you plainly, you don't want to be there.


    Free advice Martin, start reading Plato...before it's too late.

    Thomas15
     
    #48 thomas15, May 30, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 30, 2011
  9. Logos1

    Logos1 New Member

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    If you had to choose between the words of Christ ans what someone else told you

    Matthew 5:17

    Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

    Christ tells us that he came to fulfill the law and until it all passes away none of it passes away.

    Therefore either all the prophecy concerning Jerusalem has been fulfilled already or else we need to keep the Law and not turn to Christ for salvation.

    If you think the words of Christ have any meaning then all prophecies pertaining to Jerusalem have been fulfilled as Christ stated.

    Luke 21:32
    Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all has taken place.

    That would leave but two choices either the generation Christ was addressing is still alive today and we are still living under the law or all things were fulfilled in the first generation.

    Just read this in a straight forward manner and don’t inject your previous thinking that Christ’s return is in the future and how would you come to the conclusion that there is any prophecy left concerning Jerusalem to be fulfilled?
     
    #49 Logos1, May 31, 2011
  10. thomas15

    thomas15 Well-Known Member

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    The correct scripture, the wrong conclusion. Your either/or scenerio leaves out the most likely application of the words spoken by Christ and that is since dot and iota haven't become reality then most likely we wait for conclusion instead of forcing a "almost close but not exactly" conclusion based on preterist opinion.




    This is the "sledge hammer" in which the preterist tries to explain the "almost close but not exactly" fufillment of prophecy considering the lack of historical acknowledgement to conclude that Jesus returned in the first century and that Jeruslalem is really Babylon. Conclusions that are not supported by Scripture, early church writings, church history and secular history.

    But since you Logos1 are smarter than the average bear we must see the light and bow down to your teaching, right?

    Logos1, I wait patiently for your asterisktomish hissy fit which must happen shortly.
     
    #50 thomas15, May 31, 2011
  11. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    18 For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished

    Heaven and earth have not yet passed away and yet Jesus taught that until they did not an iota or dot of the scripture would pass away. When the Law in the Old Testament is refered to it is refereing to the Pentatatuch (sp), the first 5 books of the bible. The truth of them in Jesus's day is the dsame truth as today. The difference we don't need the sacrifices in our time because Christ fuflfilled the first 4 and the other 3 still apply to Israel and His gathering them in and sitting on the Throne of David. The Law of Moses all of the scripture He wrote is viable teaching for us. The 10 commandements were never meant as a way of salvation they showed the Jews God standards, what the mark to hit was and not one until Jesus came ever met that mark. Those 10 commandments are just as valid today, if you can keep them all you have met God's mark, but if you fail in one then you fail in all. That is why the Jews faith as Abrahams and our is always counted for righteousness, Christ righteousness not ours.

    The generation that sees all the signs of His return will not pass away until it is all fulfilled, that just might be our generation as we see things fulfille.d
     
    #51 revmwc, May 31, 2011
  12. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    By "Law" Jesus meant any and all divine commandments in the OT. This is shown by the variety of examples Jesus draws from in these three chapters, Matt. 5-7.
    (Underlining from your quote is mine.)

    But you are going against your verse you just quoted. Christ said not a single part of the Law - the tiniest part - will pass away until all is fulfilled.

    You are saying which parts of the Law have already passed away.

    Christ said all the parts will pass away together.
    You say that some parts are still valid.

    Do you see the problem?
     
    #52 asterisktom, May 31, 2011
  13. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Does fulfillment mean they passed away or that they have been completed and are now a better sacrifice or new application to them, the true Sacrifice has made atonement for all and is being carried out everytime someone comes to salvation, He came to fulfill the Law not do away with It.

    Matthew 5:
    16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

    Seems very clear Christ fulfilled part of Prophecy concerning His first coming, and will fulfill prophecy with His second coming and not one iota or dot will pass away from scripture until all be fulfilled. By your theory if Christ fulfilled His coming in 70 A.D. all is fulfilled and heaven and earth should have passed away. He said "Till heaven and earth pass" They have not yet passed. "one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law" not one has but they have been fulfilled. Christ coming and dieing on the cross fulfilled parts of the Law and prophecy. Then He concluded that "till all be fulfilled" the earth would not pass until the fulfillment of all the law, O.T. prophecy and N.T. prophecy have all been fulfilled. That has yet to happen because the Heaven and earth of Jesus day still exist today.
     
    #53 revmwc, May 31, 2011
  14. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    When Jesus said law he used nomon (nomos) here is the uses of the Greek:

    Strong's Number: 3551 encodedOriginalWord
    Original Word Word Origin
    νόμος from a primary nemo (to parcel out, especially food or grazing to animals)
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    nomos nom'-os
    Parts of Speech TDNT
    Noun Masculine 4:1022,646
    Definition
    1. anything established, anything received by usage, a custom, a law, a command
    a. of any law whatsoever
    1. a law or rule producing a state approved of God 1a
    b. by the observance of which is approved of God
    1. a precept or injunction
    2. the rule of action prescribed by reason
    c. of the Mosaic law, and referring, acc. to the context. either to the volume of the law or to its contents
    d.the Christian religion: the law demanding faith, the moral instruction given by Christ, esp. the precept concerning love
    e. the name of the more important part (the Pentateuch), is put for the entire collection of the sacred books of the OT

    You apply the word in Matthew 5 according to c. it appears or is it e.?

    If as you say all has been fulfilled then the end of the world must have already come because Christ Heaven and earth will not pass away until all is fulfilled, if as you say it is all fulfilled the why are we still here the world should have ended in 70 a.d.
     
    #54 revmwc, May 31, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: May 31, 2011
  15. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    No, "heaven and earth" do not exist today. Not the "heaven and earth" that Jesus was speaking about. We bring so much of our own worldview into Scripture that we have a hard time understanding Bible terminology.

    The heavens and earth refer to the Jewish dispensation.

    "The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz, which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah, kings of Judah. 2 Hear, O heavens, and give ear, O earth! For the LORD has spoken: "I have nourished and brought up children, And they have rebelled against Me;" Isaiah 1:1-2

    Now, is God speaking to all of the Earth here? Is He speaking to the heavens? No. He is speaking to Israel; according to context, to "Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah, Jotham, Ahaz, and Hezekiah".

    "But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared; The LORD of hosts is His name. 16 And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, 'You are My people.'" Isaiah 51:15-16

    When did God create the Heavens and Earth? According to this passage it was when He divided the Red Sea. No, I am not denying the physical creation as described in Genesis 1, but that is not the topic here. And - once again, focusing on this passage in Isaiah - what were the accompanying results of this dividing of the Sea?
    1. The planting of the heavens,
    2. The laying of the foundations of the earth, and
    3. The saying to Zion, "You are My people".

    It is this "heavens and earth" Jesus is referring to in Matt. 5:18.

    Peter, writing three decades later, but still before the Parousia, describes this same heavens and earth:

    "But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter. 3:7

    Peter is looking forward to the time that Isaiah had written of:

    "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind." Isaiah 65:17 (KJV)

    Once again, we have a hard time appreciating the context of Christ's words because we are so attuned to our own understanding of the phrase "heavens and earth", not the Scriptural intent.
     
    #55 asterisktom, May 31, 2011
  16. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Excellent post Tom.
     
    #56 kyredneck, May 31, 2011
  17. asterisktom

    asterisktom Well-Known Member
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    Thanks, Ky. This is a wonderful topic. Too bad the discussion of it all too often devolves into polemics.
     
    #57 asterisktom, May 31, 2011
  18. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    The hebrew word for heaven as used by Isaiah in 1:2
    Strong's Number: 08064 eym# שמים
    Original Word Word Origin
    שמים from an unused root meaning to be lofty
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    shamayim shaw-mah'-yim
    Parts of Speech TWOT
    Noun Masculine 2407a
    Definition
    1. heaven, heavens, sky
    a. visible heavens, sky
    1.as abode of the stars
    2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
    b. Heaven (as the abode of God)

    Nowhere is it applied to Israel, but to the physical Heavens.

    The hebrew earth as used by Isaiah in verse 2

    Strong's Number: 0776 ur) ארץ
    Original Word Word Origin
    ארץ from an unused root probably meaning to be firm
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    'erets eh'-rets
    Parts of Speech TWOT
    Noun Feminine 167
    Definition
    1. land, earth
    a. earth
    1. whole earth (as opposed to a part)
    2. earth (as opposed to heaven)
    3. earth (inhabitants)
    b. land
    1. country, territory
    2. district, region
    3. tribal territory
    4. piece of ground
    5. land of Canaan, Israel
    6. inhabitants of land
    7. Sheol, land without return, (under) world
    8. city (-state)
    c. ground, surface of the earth
    1. ground
    2. soil
    d. (in phrases)
    1. people of the land
    2. space or distance of country (in measurements of distance)
    3. level or plain country
    4. land of the living
    5. end(s) of the earth
    e.(almost wholly late in usage)
    1. lands, countries 1e
    2. often in contrast to Canaan
     
    #58 revmwc, May 31, 2011
  19. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 51:16 the word heaven from the hebrew:

    Strong's Number: 08064 eym# שמים
    Original Word Word Origin
    שמים from an unused root meaning to be lofty
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    shamayim shaw-mah'-yim
    Parts of Speech TWOT
    Noun Masculine 2407a
    Definition
    1. heaven, heavens, sky
    a. visible heavens, sky
    1. as abode of the stars
    2. as the visible universe, the sky, atmosphere, etc
    b. Heaven (as the abode of God)
    And ur is used for the earth.

    Nowhere does it say God created the earth at the dividing of the Red Sea. It says He divided the Sea "and thus And say to Zion, 'You are My people." Who divided the sea, planted the heaves and lay the Foundation of the Earth, God did, this in no way says it was done then, in fact He says that He is the one who did these things and with the parting of the sea set up Zion (Israel) as a nation.
     
    #59 revmwc, May 31, 2011
  20. revmwc

    revmwc Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 5:18 the word Heaven;
    Strong's Number: 3772 ou¹rano/v οὐρανός
    Original Word Word Origin
    οὐρανός perhaps from the same as (3735) (through the idea of elevation)
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    ouranos oo-ran-os'
    Parts of Speech TDNT
    the sky
    Definition
    1. the vaulted expanse of the sky with all things visible in it
    the universe, the world
    a. the aerial heavens or sky, the region where the clouds and the tempests gather, and where thunder and lightning are produced
    b. the sidereal or starry heavens
    2. the region above the sidereal heavens, the seat of order of things eternal and consummately perfect where God dwells and other heavenly beings

    Again no refernece to th nation Israel but the word means the literal sky or Heavens.

    Earth as in Matthew 5:18;
    Strong's Number: 1093 gh= γῆ
    Original Word Word Origin
    γῆ contracted from a root word
    Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
    gē ghay
    Parts of Speech TDNT
    Noun Feminine 1:677,116
    Definition
    1. arable land
    2. the ground, the earth as a standing place
    3. the main land as opposed to the sea or water
    4. the earth as a whole
    a. the earth as opposed to the heavens
    b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals
    5. a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region

    While 5 applies to a literal country the contxt of the verse says the literal sky or sidderal heaven the Jesus wouldn't have then refered to a country but followed His context and used the word as 4. a. shows earth as opposed to heaven.
     
    #60 revmwc, May 31, 2011
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